tmsr - Search: i

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asciilifeform: i'ma bake another patch later this wk, unless somebody else does first.

asciilifeform: this is the inevitable cost of v, you gotta weigh 'i can fix this typo, but 5 people will need to either regrind or abandon my tree' ☟︎

asciilifeform: they will, yes. but i dun expect this one to change much at all.

asciilifeform: but would rather avoid an ocean of os-specific items that i'm expected to sign despite never having tested and possibly not even owning the iron with which to test ( again see the #ifdef megathread )

asciilifeform: ave1: i am also not opposed to using gprbuild's selector thing

ave1: I don't know about the different v-trees for this, I'll have to think about it ☟︎

ave1: Yes, I remember

asciilifeform: ave1: i'd rather not marry python if at all possible to avoid

asciilifeform: ave1: this is the method i recommend , yes

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:54 mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason.

ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851285, no I do not. I was thinking I could add the asm stuff to asciilifeforms UDP code in a vpatch, if this would be at all desirable. ☝︎

ave1: I was working towards having different modules on top of a common base to support tcp / unix sockets etc. but I think your idea is way better, asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851315 ☝︎☟︎

ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851208, asciilifeform was right. I used the list of system calls and read the man pages and some linux kernel code. (I've worked with the whole BSD sockets stuff for way too long but not so much directly with it in the past 10 years or so, and it has grown wraths...). Plus figuring out how to do system calls with more than 3 parameters took some work (was not hard but in relation with inline assembly made it difficult). ☝︎

lobbes: Detailed update on step 3) referenced within: I have finished designing/building out/testing the underlying table and field structure (I ended up migrating the underlying db to postgres in lieu of sqlite, and so far am glad I did). Right now I am in the thick of the re-tooling of my old coad. Still looks to be on-track for Oct 31st delivery, but I will keep folx updated ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 13:35 a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 19:40 asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron

asciilifeform: diana_coman: last (for nao) observation -- 1) it is possible to make the thing 'fancier' in 2 ways -- can make Socket a 'controlled type' ( as i did in mmap, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850368 ) , then it can close itself when going out of scope. i did not do this, as it adds a bit of overhead 2) it is possible to make the lib a 'generic' ( again see horsecocks re how ) , and make udptrons of different packet length runti ☝︎

asciilifeform: that rounds out the list of errata currently known, i think

asciilifeform: ( i think there's also at least 1 typo in the comments )

asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : nobody noticed, but it is troo -- i forgot to close the socket in the demo ( this has 0 effect, os closes ). but in next rev will correct this.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: somewhere i also have glue for unix signals support, so proggy can do the Right Thing when you ctrl-c, or kill, etc. but this i'll dust off later (or if somebody has a dire need)

diana_coman: asciilifeform, the timeout was the only one I hesitated on too (and the only one I'm using in the original test for that matter) but precisely like you, when I thought of it, I came up with "well, threading should be enough anyway " and uhm, no reason why it's *needed* there

mircea_popescu: anyway, i shall bbl!

diana_coman: fwiw, I'm also quite grateful that ave1 published it now - it pointed me to ada inline assembler (I hadn't really looked at it before!) and it gives me some time to hopefully get a bit more used to it *before* I'll need it anyway

asciilifeform: but i haven't tried erry possible os, conceivably it breaks on microshit or somesuch.

asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : i thought about including timeout in 'procedure Receive...' but sat and thought and could not think of why , so omitted.

diana_coman: heh, asciilifeform has it: the way I see it, ave1's work will come in very handy at a later date when we can get rid of more of the C mess

asciilifeform: diana_coman: libc, specifically ( i like musl, but it doesn't belong on the fyootoor all-adatronic box )

diana_coman: and I actually think it is a step in the right direction since it gets rid of C

asciilifeform: asciilifeform incidentally much appreciates ave1's work, when i remove the c glue i'ma just about certainly crib from his asm glue

mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: diana_coman i can see it.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm not married to the c glue, and it'll eventually go. i am quite fond of my api tho, it completely rids user of having to think in unixisms , imho

diana_coman: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431566 -> I'm thinking of 2 there ; asciilifeform's lib also provides I think a good interface - I don't see any reason why one couldn't just change /swap the underlying .c file with ada or asm at a later date without having to change otherwise anything of whatever one builds on top of the lib (i.e. relying on the lib's interface)

mircea_popescu: it'll passively show network congestion too i think, because of the hourlies.

mircea_popescu: i do not think we want more moving parts than those two

mircea_popescu: delta time and packet loss, i think.

mircea_popescu: i spenta while trying, but the sad truth about impotence is that sooner or later one has to come to terms with the facts of the matter. i just... can't.

asciilifeform: mebbe i'm thick, but why even bother to read the male tards

mircea_popescu: i can't quite manage to find 20something dicklets offensive anymore.

asciilifeform: personally i find the plebez with 0 pretense to 'understand' anyffing, slightly less offensively stupid ( rather like dried shit is less offensive than fresh ) but possibly just me.

mircea_popescu: "as long as the fridge works, why do i need to understand adiabatic cycles! MYSTICAL SCIENTISM CLINTON FOR THE WIN!"

mircea_popescu: i expect he's aware, seeing how notwithstanding he and some chicks (married to other dudes) he lists are in "antactica", the extended network of "play partners" etc eventually points to edinburgh.

mircea_popescu: i have one word for you, alfie

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist."

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also suspect that distinguishable folx , where they exist, are occupied with sumthing other than prattling re how supposedly distinguishable they are..

mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist." ☟︎

asciilifeform: but yes i expect will find out, who frags, who not, who mutilates.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that he followed same method as described in his http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c item ( which i suggested a long time ago ), simply take the calls & translate by hand into the linux abi convention

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:46 diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest

mircea_popescu: (by soup i mean, don't send them in order of size, but in some random order each hour)

mircea_popescu: people finally wised up to the fact it's insane to bitflip a single variable into the ground "to save space". i suspect ~same realisation i nthe wings re udp

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng. ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:17 diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 13:44 asciilifeform: i'ma disagree that '~same' , but this will only be possible to explain once mine's posted.

diana_coman: I guess what happened is that deedbot gave a lot of voice!!

mircea_popescu: diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: << it's been an epic few days! (what happened ?)

mircea_popescu: i wonder where he keeps all this voice.

asciilifeform: ( i still have boxen with the old gnat, except for rk, where only ave1's gnat exists )

diana_coman: asciilifeform, ah, I forgot to mention it explicitly but yes, my tests include ave1's gnat as well as adacore's gnat; this is pretty much for any ada code I test

asciilifeform: ave1: know what would be neat ? ~raw~ packet support. ( recall mircea_popescu's 'i hate udp' thread )

asciilifeform: incidentally i built an' tested with ave1's gnat, a+++ worx.

diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest ☟︎

asciilifeform: incidentally, my lib can be asmed just as readily as ave1 asmed the classical 'all of tcp stack' glue. ( sadly i dun currently have the free hands to do this )

diana_coman: I'd expect that, yes; it was re <asciilifeform> user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)

diana_coman: re eggogging udp on a machine, perhaps trying to send something above the UDP packet limit I'd say (it's ~64k iirc)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: virtually all nontrivial programs eat or display an ip in txt form somewhere, i've found. incl the demo. hence, included.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i already nailed down a format, observe, ip is stored always as native-endian 32bit.

diana_coman: asciilifeform, the udp lib can request it in a certain format; the rest is layered on top, I don't really see why it needs string representation or eating a string; anyways, splitting hairs on this

asciilifeform: so i left it like-so

diana_coman: right; in terms of simplicity I can't say atm that I'm able to see anything that can be further cut off from the udp part itself indeed (the string <-> ip part doesn't seem to fit in there necessarily but that's not udp per se anyway)

asciilifeform: user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)

asciilifeform: what i do not do, is to ~distinguish~ all of the,

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i handle all eggogs

asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho variable-length-datagram is for the birds. hence i jettisoned good bit of complexity by omitting it

diana_coman: on a different note: I really had trouble coming up with a *full and reliable* set of errors that the UDP ops in linux might throw up; from linux man pages I gathered the unhelpful "all errors from IP may be returned by recv /send" - and looking at that list, it makes for a waaay bigger set than what I see you considered

asciilifeform: tho it can be debated exactly which length, as i noted in the proggy

diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway ☟︎

asciilifeform: 2) 'when i ditch unix, the api should continue to make exactly same amt of sense as before'

diana_coman: I can see your point there; it was literally a question to understand the reasoning behind the choice, nothing more

diana_coman: yes, I'm not crying over those

asciilifeform: and i set it

mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 12:37 diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods

diana_coman: as it is, the selected minimal set of ops seems ok, except perhaps the fixed message length - I think it's more of a maximum length needed in practice, at least for current version of S.MG protocol

diana_coman: asciilifeform, if I understand your lib correctly, it aims to expose only a strict & minimal set of UDP calls; atm it uses C code for the actual socket part but in principle this layer could be replaced at a later time by some Ada layer while keeping the rest as it is, correct?

diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods only

diana_coman: thanks asciilifeform! I'll read it and get back to you

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:44 diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times

asciilifeform: ^ eventually i'd like to rewrite the human-string routines, and get rid of the unix callout there, but imho errything else prolly oughta stay as is.

Mocky: allah-spam in #eulora seemed mere annoyance until I noticed how it inserts pages of spam with log search results.

mircea_popescu: well, i certainly prefer it to the alternative, whereby ghost-of-mp long after floats about the land

diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( and e.g. mircea_popescu unsheaths ~erry day, and i dun recall him finding it headache ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: i can't speak for others, but asciilifeform does not find having to unsheath the launch coads erry coupla wks, to be huge headache

asciilifeform: as for the classic voice model, i admit that i like the hidden feature where it causes folx to periodically reassert that they still control their key

mircea_popescu: this may even be feasible, i don't imagine the wotscore lookup is that expensive. i dun see anythinf wrong with it, if anyone's annoying easy enough to fix the score.

asciilifeform: nobody needs the 'i'ma lurk here for a year because reading www logs is against koran' types for anyffing, imho.

asciilifeform: so long as it specifically excludes validly-wot'd folx, i can't see any possibl problem

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu puts in a 'folx who lurked for n day and said 0' kicktron, i'll clap.

a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 20:53 ben_vulpes: i'd almost rather see an auto-kicker