log☇︎
250400+ entries in 0.147s
mircea_popescu: a sort of localbrew punk/skinhead of the 70s
asciilifeform: much to the lament of jurov et al
mircea_popescu: actually i recall ru went through a very acute phase
mircea_popescu: much as the muslim world also does.
mircea_popescu: see, pre 2000, romania had VERY strong antibodies against what jim&friends discuss in that turkey article.
mircea_popescu: also for the sake of humanity, "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" is a broken sentence. a teleology is any theory of purpose in realia. so you could say "any attempt if describing the teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" or "the teleology of this phenomena should be expressed in terms of" etc. it dun work like "description" or "philosophy", it works like for "substance" or "relevancy".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what was the face-busting cultural identification earlier ?
asciilifeform: phf: they dun have dst in mircea_popesculandia
phf: there's an hour disparity between mp's tmsr-logs and btcbase, so i need to figure that one out..
mircea_popescu: not really. facedots get circles once you finally got the fucker, for isntance.
asciilifeform: even among prisoners, there are only 2-3 usefully distinct types.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in so far as i can tell, modern american tatoo is ~always ~meaningless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, they never got semantic, a la ru prison tattoos. most girls got what today'd be called "tribal" shit
phf: would you also happen to remember which timezone that would be? :D
mircea_popescu: and i'd have busted your face on the street.
mircea_popescu: also at a time and place where listening to depeche mode wasn't merely happenstance but more cultural identification and political statement than a trump tshirt
phf: asciilifeform: do you have some of your very old logs, can you grep for "sawdust in the gearbox, apparently timeless." and let me know what timestamp on that is?
mircea_popescu: but this is from a very insular culture, where for instance lesbos had it very easy : "does she wear anklet ? talk to her."
mircea_popescu: well some things were important, such as : did she get it somewhere her parents might see ?
asciilifeform: (for this purpose)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was there a typical tat ?
mircea_popescu: this i suspect is the ancient, tribal, functional usage. "modern" my left foot.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, no hymen = fair game. and as there was need for easy visual identification to know whom to invite to parties... the sluts got inked.
mircea_popescu: anyway. when i was a kid, tattoos meant a thing and that thing only : she fucks. there exists no majority age in romania, a girl's a woman the moment she starts doing it, which can happen as early as 12, though as a rule it's more around 15.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-20 20:18 phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557293 << the question eschewed, of course, is why "modern". and what;s it supposed to mean. very strange sort of amateur anthropology. ☝︎
asciilifeform: it is a form of theoretically-undetectable 'premine'.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the (very old) gedankenexperiment concerned 'what if solving hashes is substantially cheaper than we chumps believe it to be, and promulgator of the coin knows the pill'
asciilifeform: into the ovens.
asciilifeform: aficionados of 'trusted agent' - straight to paypalschwitz.
thestringpuller: way to use trusted agents to eciently enable timed release crypto "
thestringpuller: Ah. Atomically. Def. That's in the paper.
asciilifeform: there exists no proof that finding, e.g., sha2 collision, MUST take ~C cycles per.
thestringpuller: point being seems like solution to trap door is similar to distributed PoW
asciilifeform: because nobody reads the motherfucking code.
thestringpuller: i kno that. we discussed in 2012. 4 year discussion now eh?
asciilifeform: it was a feature that derps pretend is in bitcoin, but never made it in, made fools of themselves
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 'locktime' has 0 to do with crypto
thestringpuller: well isn't solving a block the same as finding a time delay crypto puzzle?
asciilifeform: if i owned the closet hasher, i would also carry right along 'consenting', aha.
asciilifeform: ~appears~ to do so.
thestringpuller: everyone involved somehow consents the puzzle is legit...
thestringpuller: the only way to do that would be through some kinda consensus mechanism
thestringpuller: you can't prove the trap door function doesn't exist cause you can't prove you don't know the keys to the puzzle
asciilifeform: (for one thing, the actual existence of trapdoors has not been demonstrated.)
asciilifeform: and quite likely there can be none.
thestringpuller: iirc this was in 2012 logs, cause i remember you saying similar situation to "nLockTime" (altho we discovered more turds there upon further inspection)
asciilifeform: to put it in more familiar frame, there is no way to prove that the majority of the bitcoin hash rate is not in fact happening on a pocket comp.
asciilifeform: whatever form it takes.
asciilifeform: because how the fuck do you show that you have not 'pre-solved' the puzzle.
asciilifeform: the problem is demonstrably unsolvable in the general case.
thestringpuller: well the paper is from 1996, it was just intriguing how familiar to PoW it was
thestringpuller: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/RivestShamirWagner-timelock.pdf << is what I read back in 2012 on timelock puzzles
asciilifeform: (and incidentally this is a problem shared with bitcoin, which may conceivably have been authored by someone with a pill for sha2.)
asciilifeform: as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz. ☟︎
asciilifeform: the cryptographic mega-puzzler would be re how 'ck coin' could be 'provably fair' (i.e. the ciphertexts provably represent privkeys containing the entire monetary base, in aggregate )
asciilifeform: (i am almost wholly ignorant of how the latter mechanically works - so possibly not)
asciilifeform: possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. one where all of the coin is premined, but allocated into 'chests', published as privkeys enciphered in such a way as to be bruteforceable with reasonable effort
asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the overhead is : i encrypt 1 number, and communicate 127 numbers to 127 people then their responses to 127 people.
asciilifeform: 'how many bugs shall we tolerate!?' 'seven!' ☟︎
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why too much
mircea_popescu: sure. log2(340282366920938463463374607431768211455) = 128. which may still be too much
asciilifeform: you only need log2(N) additions, to mult.
mircea_popescu: it could in principle end up too much back and forth.
mircea_popescu: yes but even then
asciilifeform: nah, this one is fixable
mircea_popescu: but these have ~nothing to do with the weird objections raised.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the main problem with the algo described being that if i want to multiply 2^2^7-1 with 2^2^11-1 i'm stuck requesting 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 discrete additions, which isn't worth doing in any possible universe.
asciilifeform: ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.) ☟︎
asciilifeform: rt's threshold)
asciilifeform: (this might be in the l0gz, but asciilifeform's own private, abortive, and ~entirely pointless attempt to 'invent bitcoin' in 2005-6 involved 'homomorphotron' (did not at the time know the term, or of anyone else's work on subj) that simulates 'martian bank' as ordinary computer program but somehow executed 'crypto-blinded' by multitude of independent machines, with the aggregate behaving correctly so long as collusion is below lampo
mircea_popescu: i think he'd greatly benefit from mp-wp, but anyway
asciilifeform: prolly the usual overcompensation for spamolade.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform packet may be logged, this dun matter.
asciilifeform: 'the game', in that case, 'isn't worth the candles'
asciilifeform: if i have to do 6 bignum mults myself, to ask my partner to homomorphicate 1 bignum mult, i am losing.
trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes? ☟︎
asciilifeform: which is you you need the branch
asciilifeform: other, unrelated observation, is that delegating computation with a homomorphotron is only +ev if you spend fewer cycles to encipher 'the question' and decipher 'the answer' than it would have taken you to carry out the entire computation in your own comp
asciilifeform: if it relies on my being able to send packet from my house without it being immediately logged, some fraction of the time, then i personally cannot much profit from the scheme.
asciilifeform: btw i've been trying to come up with useful scheme standing on paillier, for >decade now, and if mircea_popescu writes one, i promise to read it.
asciilifeform: i only today dug him up...
mircea_popescu: incidentally, was this jim fellow ever invited over ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if one "reduced" to all then set theory would be a funny place indeed.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 23:51 mircea_popescu: btw phf did you load the old archives yet ?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556932 << i started chipping at the code to get the old log support working, probably a couple of days worth of work ☝︎
asciilifeform: how does this not reduce to 'all in a kettle'..?
mircea_popescu: every one is always going to be representable as "in a kettle".
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental strategical choice, and it is not getting reviewed. which is why there isn't a geographical republic.
asciilifeform: i would rather leave it as exercise to the patient reader, mircea_popescu et al, than press it
mircea_popescu: for all i know the guy has a point ; but we've not to date managed to put it in terms i can read.
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the gossipd spec.
mircea_popescu: i'm not interested in the branching, will be happy to have a bignum machine that's securely separable via uci.
trinque: mircea_popescu is afaik proposing the communication of these is encrypted; asciilifeform is seeing them transmitted in teh bare
phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]" ☟︎
asciilifeform: let's temporarily leave this part for later, and posit that mircea_popescu can both add and multiply homomorphically, via whatever means. i'd like to hear how he carries out the branching.
asciilifeform: scheme that relies on a and b, in besieged castle, to communicate with a non-besieged C, is not crypto.
mircea_popescu: http://blog.jim.com/culture/why-women-get-tattooed/#comments << in other news, holy shit check out the ream of experts in women.