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asciilifeform: http://www.xubux.com/upload/000/u1/013/4781adf0.jpg << i def saw this, in a b00k, must be

asciilifeform: incidentally, speaking of finns, there was a http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-20#570183 . ☝︎

asciilifeform: ha , has a pigeon flavour about it

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit

mircea_popescu: "if my typo fix contains a typo" i mean

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the heathens make a pretense that 'dun have to, automerge' etc

asciilifeform: btw one of the items i have in the deep freezers, is a trb with block db ripped out, replaced with (half-finished, sadly) ada mmap thing

mircea_popescu: i dun see a problem with that bit, either.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851358 << imo this is a very stupid way to go about it ; first and foremost for the reason given (why am i signing ifdefs i do not run) but there's also others. ☝︎

asciilifeform: funnily enuff, as recently as '16 we briefly had a finn here, helped me ferret out the amd key thing, but went back into the allconsuming swamp, never heard from again

asciilifeform: certainly nao is ( currently under conversion to a sort of discount bagdad, as i understand )

mircea_popescu: nah, it was rather a sort of sane-moms-central.

asciilifeform: for short time, they had a) functional people b) with time on their hands

mircea_popescu: at some point in the 80s, finland-sweden-norway-and-peripheralia were a kind of internet center.

mircea_popescu: yes, there is a brief nail of time where in finland irc was dating rather than bitwashery.

asciilifeform: the protocol itself is a '80s thing tho, and (at least according to folk legend..) at one time was used ~likethis

mircea_popescu: right, so. in a sense, what passes for irc here is actually an invention of here.

mircea_popescu: originally irc of today was implemented by bbs and the irc was principally a sort of edonkey, basically conversations around warez metadata.

asciilifeform: ftr i never grasped why irc is a tcp item to begin with. it aint as if the messages outweigh the available bucket.

mircea_popescu: people don't want to rewrite "traditional X" because "traditional" is always a way of saying "gui". and nobody ever wants to redo that.

asciilifeform: ( at which point writing new thing begins to look like a win )

asciilifeform: imho tcp , if preserved anywhere, oughta live as a lowered-into-pederasty item-only-carried-over-better-protocols or strictly-on-lan, like telnet.

asciilifeform: ( by inserting a nAck, or simply timing it out, etc )

asciilifeform: not adult gossipd, was simply proggy that eats a symmetric key and gives tunnel for, e.g., www, ftp, telnet, etc

mircea_popescu: imo that's a sort of herodotus bestiary item, web-footed whale.

mircea_popescu: seems rather like a sort of html/irc browserclient.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:03 ave1: I was working towards having different modules on top of a common base to support tcp / unix sockets etc. but I think your idea is way better, asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851315

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851334 << i also can't think of a thing that would legitimately need/want to use both tcp and udp as a toplevel thing. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851331 << this sounds like it was a most educational adventure. ☝︎

mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?

asciilifeform: if yer thing is 'young' and in flux, it's likely to be a single-author straight-line tree at any rate

asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit ☟︎☟︎☟︎

ave1: well if the ocean is in a different file it will also no end up in the tree (only in those patches containing the file)

asciilifeform: for a correctly-written proggy, v-branching is clean, you can make patch that only affects os-specific coad

asciilifeform: and there's a quite convenient place to put.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:54 mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason.

ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851285, no I do not. I was thinking I could add the asm stuff to asciilifeforms UDP code in a vpatch, if this would be at all desirable. ☝︎

ave1: I was working towards having different modules on top of a common base to support tcp / unix sockets etc. but I think your idea is way better, asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851315 ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:48 mircea_popescu: incidentally ave1 what was your process there ? did you compile a higher language original (what, c ?) and then desasm the resulting object code ? followed by a handpass through the result, neating & trimming things out ? or did you start with a blank page and a legal pad ?

lobbes: TMSR~: Updated auctionbot eta 'steps to fruition' to be a little more reflective of my current state >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/07/auctionbot-eta-and-status-report/

asciilifeform: diana_coman: last (for nao) observation -- 1) it is possible to make the thing 'fancier' in 2 ways -- can make Socket a 'controlled type' ( as i did in mmap, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850368 ) , then it can close itself when going out of scope. i did not do this, as it adds a bit of overhead 2) it is possible to make the lib a 'generic' ( again see horsecocks re how ) , and make udptrons of different packet length runti ☝︎

asciilifeform: there's also a missing restrict pragma in the lib, pragma Restrictions(No_Implicit_Conditionals) , took it out during dev (when experimented with to-string sans-callout ) and forgot to reinsert

asciilifeform: diana_coman: somewhere i also have glue for unix signals support, so proggy can do the Right Thing when you ctrl-c, or kill, etc. but this i'll dust off later (or if somebody has a dire need)

diana_coman: fwiw, I'm also quite grateful that ave1 published it now - it pointed me to ada inline assembler (I hadn't really looked at it before!) and it gives me some time to hopefully get a bit more used to it *before* I'll need it anyway

diana_coman: heh, asciilifeform has it: the way I see it, ave1's work will come in very handy at a later date when we can get rid of more of the C mess

diana_coman: and I actually think it is a step in the right direction since it gets rid of C

diana_coman: it's certainly NOT a waste!

mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason. ☟︎

diana_coman: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431566 -> I'm thinking of 2 there ; asciilifeform's lib also provides I think a good interface - I don't see any reason why one couldn't just change /swap the underlying .c file with ada or asm at a later date without having to change otherwise anything of whatever one builds on top of the lib (i.e. relying on the lib's interface)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this flavour of thing is actually a 1980s meme, is what passed for lolcats in those days

mircea_popescu: sounds like what happens when you teach ustards the letters and no more. sooner or later they'll find an old translation of a greek thesaurus and start mixymatching it up.

BingoBoingo: Sounds like what happens when you pack hot anthrax tight in a hair fillicle

mircea_popescu: "Oh! Before you go, there you are: Floccinaucinihilipilification: The act or habit of describing or regarding something as unimportant, of having no value or being worthless. Doms around the world, might wanna include that one in your dirty talk when trying to be a fancy degrader. Didn't want you to leave without learning something new ;) got extra points if you actually read the whole word." << dude's seriously off in his ow

a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 04:38 mircea_popescu: now back to fake homosexuality : human sexuality is a learned behaviour. proper homosexuality is an inability to learn, akin to dyslexia or lefthandedness. fake homosexuality is the exact contrary, a lot of "what if"ism and "provemewrong"ism and so on. a social, rather than biological phenomenon.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he's a penis captive in a mouth body!

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist."

mircea_popescu: more than half of them are in a box with a cardinal in nine or ten digits!

mircea_popescu: it's not like, generation is like dropping balls, with there being a coupla boxes at the age of 0, and maybe a dozen boxes by age 6, and at MOST fifty or so boxes by age 25. and so by the law of large fucking numbers, every single fucking 25yo out there is in a class with at best MILLIONS of other, perfectly equal and entirely interchangeable balls.

mircea_popescu: 27yo male. that you will not find anymore as X as. because this is now a thing, 20somethings are distinguishable in that absolute sense.

mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist." ☟︎

mircea_popescu: gotta start with a path

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851201 << this would be a very interesting experiment. keep in mind that the result is heavily path-dependent tho ☝︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that he followed same method as described in his http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c item ( which i suggested a long time ago ), simply take the calls & translate by hand into the linux abi convention

mircea_popescu: incidentally ave1 what was your process there ? did you compile a higher language original (what, c ?) and then desasm the resulting object code ? followed by a handpass through the result, neating & trimming things out ? or did you start with a blank page and a legal pad ? ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:46 diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:40 asciilifeform: you'd need something like a dead iron nic.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ? ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: it's a pretty tall tower, yes

mircea_popescu: people finally wised up to the fact it's insane to bitflip a single variable into the ground "to save space". i suspect ~same realisation i nthe wings re udp

mircea_popescu: what it is is certainly <1kb say. wasting the occasional portion of a kb is not so unlike wasting the occasional portion of a 64 bit register to represent a boolean value. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: moreover, it's not clear to me that varying the packet size AND the packet count rather than just the packet count is a wise move. it's not clear to me what it buys, especially considering there's externalities (udp packets under a certain size travel better than over ; this for technical reasons unrelated to other considerations).

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:17 diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway

a111: Logged on 2018-09-02 02:04 mircea_popescu: well ? how EXACTLY did the entire "torzilla development community" spring up ? what the fuck is a lindsey kuper ?

mircea_popescu: it's obviously enough how laughable monstrosities like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-02#1846790 were even produced in the first place. "why does this thing leak more kb/s than an old style modem ?" "because we do all the memory handling inside a live octopus" ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( srsly there is no reason for a udptron to allocate anyffing whatsoever , much less to return pointers )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it astonished me how folx were able to so elaborately break such a simple thing.

mircea_popescu: who even does this. in c of all things, what, is it a death wish that can't be otherwise expressed ?

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:05 diana_coman: for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)

diana_coman: I guess what happened is that deedbot gave a lot of voice!!

asciilifeform: still needs a bigendian test tho.

asciilifeform: incidentally i built an' tested with ave1's gnat, a+++ worx.

diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest ☟︎

asciilifeform: you'd need something like a dead iron nic. ☟︎

asciilifeform: but yes, you wont get anyffing more detailed than in which unixism was the eggog ( strace will give it to you tho ). idea being. udp does not ever eggog during everyday operation on a correctly configged box

diana_coman: I'd expect that, yes; it was re <asciilifeform> user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)

diana_coman: re eggogging udp on a machine, perhaps trying to send something above the UDP packet limit I'd say (it's ~64k iirc)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i already nailed down a format, observe, ip is stored always as native-endian 32bit.

diana_coman: asciilifeform, the udp lib can request it in a certain format; the rest is layered on top, I don't really see why it needs string representation or eating a string; anyways, splitting hairs on this

asciilifeform: it also shows how to output strings in a civilized way, for n00bz.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho that functionality belongs in a udp lib ( given as it demands knowledge of how ip is represented ) but prolly oughta be a troo ada thing, not a callout. however implementing it would double the mass of the proggy

asciilifeform: user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)

diana_coman: on a different note: I really had trouble coming up with a *full and reliable* set of errors that the UDP ops in linux might throw up; from linux man pages I gathered the unhelpful "all errors from IP may be returned by recv /send" - and looking at that list, it makes for a waaay bigger set than what I see you considered

asciilifeform: there is also a max possible, iirc 65520 or near

asciilifeform: but there is also a 'min that will be reassembled on most routers', iirc 580

diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, the actual length is likely to be different at the very least, but that's not a big issue

asciilifeform: there's a 'max never-fragged', afaik 508 byte