asciilifeform: but there is no martian clock.

asciilifeform: this is quite trivial .

asciilifeform: ( and a tx can be a once-per-Hinterval thing where you gotta roll in the previous interval's hash. and the day's tx form the day's H. )

asciilifeform: then you have the ordering. and 'mining' can consist of, e.g., finding twin-primes and rsa-staking the claim to them, then submitting to martiandeedbot.

asciilifeform: it is worth recalling the gedankenexperiment where it turns out that all you'd need to build 'martian bank' on earth, is if martians merely supplied an infallible 'martian clock', a service whereby they take a string S , at regular, say, daily, interval, and return its hash H ☟︎

asciilifeform: (which spend is 'the' spend? and which -- the double)

asciilifeform: without cemented ordering, the concept of 'double spend' cannot be defined

asciilifeform: ( and again i can picture a 'coin' lacking cemented event ordering . but it would not be a 'coin' in any reasonable sense of today. only a bag full of promises. )

asciilifeform: one of the problems classical mined blocks solved was - universal event ordering

asciilifeform: and it rather resembles those infamous star drive engines, e.g., alcubierre's drive

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'every user a currency issuer' is the only 'solution' i currently know to 'mining-is-a-bug'

asciilifeform: other than - possibly - the matrix thing

asciilifeform does not know a working, even in principle, algo for these.

asciilifeform: so it'd have to be one of those schemes where mining isn't even a thing; or at the very least has nothing to do with cementing tx

asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu how do you picture tx fee working with non-divisible coin ?

asciilifeform: 'The journal's editor, Robert Greene, wrote back to say that Storms’s stance set “a terrible precedent” because it was unfair to the author of the paper and opposed the APA’s policies and the guidelines followed by other reviewers. “Given that your policy conflicts with that of the journal, I think that it's best that you step down from the editorial board,” he wrote.'

asciilifeform: Gert Storms — who says he won’t step down — is one of a few hundred scientists who have vowed that, from the start of this year, they will begin rejecting papers if authors won’t publicly share the underlying data, or explain why they can’t.'

asciilifeform: in other noose, https://archive.is/D3jVT << 'An editor on the board of a journal published by the prestigious American Psychological Association (APA) has been asked to resign in a controversy over data sharing in peer review.

asciilifeform: this goes immediately back to mircea_popescu's koschei piece.

asciilifeform: explicit 'telomeres' are still mega-improvement over the old state of the art .

asciilifeform: ( in meatspace this is also known as 'civilizational death' and happens regularly )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally i suspect that a regenesised fork would begin to gather steam long before http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621006 . ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( witness the effects of the 900+kB of rubbish that usg is piping into each block today )

asciilifeform: in something short of 'ecological' timespans, even.

asciilifeform: idea being, any 'ecological' problem, with, e.g., algorithmic complexities as t-->+inf, can seem insignificant -- but enemy can waltz it into an actual problem.

asciilifeform: rather than the current '~nobody actually uses bitcoin' situation

asciilifeform: but , upstack, when i think about trbi i go into 'bridge design' mode, where 'it gotta bear all of the tanks that could possibly physically fit, and then let's also assume that martians stack'em five layers deep '

asciilifeform: it also helps that the current crop of miners is almost clinically retarded

asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform freshly re-read mircea_popescu's 'empty airplanes' thing )

asciilifeform: they don't, because apparently this 'bus' is ~empty

asciilifeform: miners could piss on coin age starting tonight, if they felt like it.

asciilifeform: well unless you also have the ring thing

asciilifeform: ( i was convinced of this very quickly after coming up with my 'shitcoin' thing )

asciilifeform: 'pruning' is for the birds, folx.

asciilifeform: how does this save you any effort

asciilifeform: you replace a block you know to have been fully lubyized with a 'if you want this, go and find'. BUT what, now you have an empty string there ..

asciilifeform: if you want to competitively mine, you gotta have the blox in O(1) at your fingertip.

asciilifeform: and yes you can compute the odds of a particular block B ending up wholly lubyized by a time T. however if you rely on the luby strings for your mining, you will be fucked timewise.

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it is possible to make a hole through a man's torso , in such a way that he does not die. but not desirable.

asciilifeform: or this.

asciilifeform: so it seems to me that what remains is to up the arity -- find such arity that any attempt at such waltzing is guaranteed to be ~useless

asciilifeform: but, upstack, conundrum is, if some of the oldtx depend on prevblock in a way that is known immediately when said block was mined -- it gives a head start to plagiarists ( per earlier observation -- folx who take a freshly-mined block and try to make ~replacement~ for it with higher PoW.) but if they are ~not~ immediately known, and depend in any way on waltzeable Z, then 'haha i'll waltz until it falls in my 10%'.

asciilifeform had a prof who permitted students to bring 'all of the crib sheets and books you can carry on your miserable back, it won't help'

asciilifeform: the one thing that definitely cannot be permitted to be manipulable by a waltzer is the arity. (there'd be overwhelming incentive to waltz for minimal arity)

asciilifeform: no, but it may be needed to get absolute certainty.

asciilifeform: sorta how student might get to select a few exam questions from a pool, but there are others that are mandatory.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cure, i realized, is that ~some~ of the oldtx selected by Z must depend on value of prev block, so as to prevent waltzing of Z 'until all i need is the 10% i'm fraudulently storing instead of the 100%' .

asciilifeform: the plagiarist can make a block with higher PoW than the victim, ~every time, since he isn't handicapped by having to compute L(Z)

asciilifeform: and actually now that i think about it, it'd be guaranteed-lethal

asciilifeform: (the fact that the original victim could, normally, relay his original faster than a typical plagiarist could hash, is immaterial, it is still a potential vuln)

asciilifeform: oooh gotta revisit upstack, briefly, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620677 << ~this~ in particular cannot be done as written. else, the first relayer of a freshly mined block could simply steal the work that went into determining luby(Z) and get massive head start on making his own block, which he then relays instead of the plagiarized. ☝︎

asciilifeform: what are ~all~ of the places where A has the ecstasy, but B does the laundry, where A!=B ☟︎

asciilifeform: ~100% of asciilifeform's line of thought re 'trbi', from this, to the casks thing, etc., was only 'how to plug the leaks'

asciilifeform: in that one party creates the sharp broken edge, but very other people have to live with the cost.

asciilifeform: it is one of the major leaks in the vacuum piping

asciilifeform: think dubloons, rather than pieces-of-eight.