log☇︎
212100+ entries in 0.131s
shinohai: I recently watched that new Hemingway movie .... it was mildly entertaining.
mircea_popescu: in other news im reading this hemingway interview and why the fuck was this guy such a dork and why does he only go out with ugly women.
asciilifeform: sometimes 'prove that a solution ~exists~ is lifetime work.
asciilifeform: much of academitard 'cryptography' is an elaborate dance around the fact that nobody knows, publicly, of any solid axioms that were unknown to von neumann. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the entire story of the "olympiad problems" (the fly between trains thing et al) is a fine indication of just how hard this sort of thing is, irl.
asciilifeform: upstack : ben_vulpes : the 'triangle' is aka 'trapdoor function', and it is not known whether they actually exist. ( folx go around pretending that they exist. does not make it so. )
asciilifeform: logicgate-poverty, according to him, prevented asymmetric crypto from taking off in su, and so this ^ was the obsession. for a while.
asciilifeform: ( according to maslennikov, kgb directorate of crypto struggled with the fundamental boojum and simply gave up, and turned to turd polishing )
asciilifeform: what you want to prove (and nobody has, for any system) is that the necessary work is equivalent to brute force guess.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the value of a winning lottery ticket = the value of the prize. lucky guys are worth money.
asciilifeform: and the d00d who does ~not~ know the key, has a nonzero P of guessing whole thing !
asciilifeform: however mircea_popescu , this is not quite right, the 'lower bound' is always O(1) for the d00d who knows the key !
mircea_popescu: they are discussing "how easy it is" and mislabel it as "how hard it is". but at no point is their discussion actually about how hard anything is.
mircea_popescu: hardest case upper bound is the discussion literature
mircea_popescu: easiest case lower bound is the requirement.
asciilifeform: however the triangle is imaginary, because -- as you will learn from the linked thread tree earlier (and not from any public literature ! elsewhere afaik) -- we know about complexity classes , as discovered by cook et al ; but we do NOT know of any means of generating ~instances~ of problems falling into given class with ~guaranteed~ average-case hardness.
asciilifeform: they are sides of the same triangle. ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: ideal hasher - into a prng (as pictured in, e.g., casks piece intro) ; an ideal cipher - into either of the two others.
asciilifeform: you can see that they are the same, because an 'ideal' prng can be trivially turned into a ciphrator; or a hasher ;
asciilifeform: in the hash's case, for anyone to go from H(S) to S ; in prng -- for anyone to go from any section of the output stream, to the seed .
asciilifeform: in both cases, you wish to prevent inversion of the function
asciilifeform: the prng has a time parameter, but it is spurious, it is really just the same as a hash, with same requirements
asciilifeform: a 'secure prng' is fundamentally THE SAME animal as the 'secure hash' and the 'secure blockcipher'. ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: the mandatory thread is here -- http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620768 ( and linked subthreads with mircea_popescu . ) ☝︎
asciilifeform: ok i cannot resist answering ben_vulpes . because he will find answer in encyclopaedia, but it will not be an actual answer, but only a thought-extinguisher. ☟︎
asciilifeform: aite. but i'm all outta circle-squaring methods, having listed all of the ones i presently know of.
mircea_popescu: this is so naive i'm not going to entertain it. let's get back to cryptocoinz naivites.
asciilifeform: and so they don;t.
asciilifeform: the folx who could -- any day of the week -- give the order to have all 'migrants' met with flamethrowers - answer to exactly usg dos sewing circle
mircea_popescu: sounds just about inept enough to have come out of the dept of state sewing circle.
asciilifeform: well sorta why usg is setting off the demolition charges (the syrian horde) in eu
mircea_popescu: neither of these are good, and in any case the us' days in europe are numbered. trump is mostly saving face with all the rhetoric.
mircea_popescu: no. they wanted sarkozy, and figured taking him out would help. taking him out propelled a) hollande and b) le pen.
asciilifeform: how's that? they wanted the d00d out of the fr election -- and he was out.
mircea_popescu: everyone's on all fours after the republican electorate, somehow. INEXPLICABLY, i guess, because trilema rather than the new york times told them to, and of course everyone listens to one of those not the other!
mircea_popescu: speaking of which last bit, you should see how vocal macri is these days! he's suddenly found himself very opinionated and shit!
asciilifeform: i seem to recall that it ~worked~
mircea_popescu: they're both pissing on the french legal system, of course. obviously trump left no marks either.
mircea_popescu: unrelatedly : both the "conservative" and the "nazi" candidates to french elections are being prosecuted by the "state" socialism for hallucinated misdeeds (they hired family members as assistents fictitiously|!11). the influence of inept obamaism and his kidnapping of french candidate last time around clearly left no scars, hurr.
asciilifeform: 'all you need is a miniature black hole and some duct tape! otherwise, 100% solid physics!1111'
asciilifeform: ( other problem is that orphaning -- and, likely, of almost arbitrary length -- would be the rule, rather than the exception. )
asciilifeform: what's the incentive to relay anything ?
mircea_popescu: monetary mass at all points = aggregate difficulty to date. it's even (sanely) inflationary.
mircea_popescu: 1 btc input 1.1 btc output 10mn difficulty txn checks out.
mircea_popescu: each txn gets its difficulty coins on top of whatever.
asciilifeform: ( if answer is 'nowhere, all coins exist at genesis' -- we're back to the rusting engineless thing )
mircea_popescu: there's no rule that this space fortress must seat > 1.
mircea_popescu: no, because you may require txn to include previous txn.
mircea_popescu: a block is like a bus - eschews the need for every child and woman to maintain an engine.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ordering.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear the notion oflbock is actually useful outside of "no hash per tx" sort of collectivism.
asciilifeform: a 'cask' system would make the queue at least thinkable. but still very painful.
asciilifeform: now iirc we touched on the crackpottery where a ~tx~ carries PoW, and tx issuers somehow have to get in a single-file queue to avoid orphaning one another, and at a certain point 'lucky winner' (in practice, folx with disproportionate - a la today's miners - hash power) crosses a threshhold PoW and gets to finalize a block.
asciilifeform: but, upstack, afaik the cold equations have no mercy, if you want miners to deal with tx, gotta pay fee, and fee has to somehow come out of txer's pocket .
asciilifeform: to this very day satellite industry lives with payload loss P that would have been familiar to columbus.
mircea_popescu: there's even a piece in the founding papers about it.
mircea_popescu: note that boats never became currency. almost everything else did.
danielpbarron: that isn't to say there aren't ways to find clicks that work well, or that in the long run the seemingly bad ones don't pay off
asciilifeform: or of the boat, to the sea serpents. etc.
asciilifeform: (though users of suitcases of benjies do. there is a certain P of losing the payload to usg en route)
asciilifeform: at any rate i have difficulty picturing users of coin swallowing this.
shinohai: Eulora is the perfect engine of the cardinal rule of unfairness.
asciilifeform: but yes, this is one way to pay a % of something that cannot be cut.
danielpbarron: some clicks in eulora, you have no idea what comes out and most of the time you don't like it
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you folx did this?! lol!!
asciilifeform: your 'fee' is a small positive probability of losing your entire tx to the miner.
mircea_popescu: what, you want to sacrifice virgins ?
asciilifeform: btw i have a terrible solution, that technically works, but is barfalicious
mircea_popescu: i have nfi. same way everything is done that we don't know how to do.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have some -- rigorous or not -- idea of how 'remains debatable' ? because afaik you gotta square this circle if you want noncuttables.
asciilifeform: (barring some crackpotitude where you somehow buy 'casks' in bulk, a solid coin at a time )
mircea_popescu: whether stuck or not remains debatable, but what's certain is that this gal's going straight home from the battered women shelter.
asciilifeform: and so it also appears that we're stuck living with cuttable coins.
asciilifeform: but afaik it summed to 0.
asciilifeform: can only assume that if there had been some interesting find, someone here might remember it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i admit that i have not attempted to unearth and catalogue the 2011 folxs' attempts to square the circle.
asciilifeform: so afaik we're solidly stuck with ye olde tx, blocks, PoW.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is the sum-total intellectual output of tardstalk "bitcoin theory" thinking for 2011.
asciilifeform: aha, you won't be seeing this one in any art gallery.
mircea_popescu: no, because he at least had talent as a draughtsman.
asciilifeform: now to complete this sad picture, i have nfi where to get any such thing as an engine, or wheels, for this machine.
mircea_popescu: the circle stayed round this time around.
asciilifeform: much less to do so in real time.
asciilifeform: now this car has not only no engine, but no wheels, there is no incentive for ~anybody to even try to store a coherent history of the world.
asciilifeform: right, because the only way to demonstrate ownership is to transfer it to the party being demonstrated to.
mircea_popescu: and no, "i was the first to mash 1 into the kbd eighty-nine million times" is not it.
mircea_popescu: there is no sane way to lay claim of ownership to random strings
asciilifeform: now, this thing just sits and rusts, because it cannot move. there is no way to prevent anybody from signing multiple, conflicting transfers.
mircea_popescu: otherwise this too much resembles the ai problem of thought();
mircea_popescu: suppose i think of it as random strings.
asciilifeform: then broadcasts this.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear what the meaning of "coin" is supposed to be without the owner.
asciilifeform: to spend a coin, its owner obtains (out of band) a new lamport pubkey from the new owner, and signs it.
asciilifeform: for sake of argument, let's draw the engineless car, and then possibly one day can conceive of the engine. say all C coins exist at genesis. (how distributed to owners -- outside the scope here.) each consist of a lamport pubkey;
mircea_popescu: no enemy can measure up to the voids.
asciilifeform: esp. synchronization in the face of enemy action
mircea_popescu: which is why there's a fee.
asciilifeform: but even the finest handmade chronometer does not approach in cost, the cost of ~synchronization~
asciilifeform: as phf's b00k illustrates, the cost of the chronometers remained a serious boojum well into 1900s
mircea_popescu: not even the marine chronometer dudes aimed to make it COSTLESS