log☇︎
13700+ entries in 0.084s
mp_en_viaje: you wish to meaningfully participate, there's the http://trilema.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/ step in your way. so, to put it quite bluntly, it is the ~only~ ffective mechanism of documentation reference, ~specifically because~ it denies access to rando "i think i'm s-m-r-t
a111: Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances
mp_en_viaje: (in fairness -- the why not is that by now bitter experience with all sorts of "libre" dorks has clearly shown they function as an imperial decoy and ~nothing else. i can't distinguish between "3d printing" sintered "guns", raspberry pi bullshit, and any other such item).
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:35 OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907141 << im not so sure the generalized problem is that interesting. he has a solid point, "are you kidding me, i can identify your ethernet stack with a fucking pickup needle". ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:07 OriansJ: asciilifeform: no where did I say null terminated strings; it could be length prefixed strings but support for strings needs to exist in a human readable bootstrap.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907081 << i opted to let that pass in silence, too much work to open the can from that seam. but... yeah, no fucking strings, not ever again. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: though i suspect this still doesn't cover it.
mp_en_viaje: actually has no clear notion of "reboot", i suppose is the true characteristic here, hence the original virii/tsr's. ~kernel modules, ipso facto.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907079 << in retrospect it's not clear what specific vhs-dos we mean when we just say "dos" in such contexts, but i believe the "brain-operation-immune" part is central -- can delete modules w/o "reboot". ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907069 << no, but see, we discovered a significant disconnect here. we DO. NOT. SUPPORT. ANYTHING. fuck them all. there's no pseudo-"friendly" postelism contemplated, there's no incumbent desire or inclination to "provide" for a vague, imagined "audience" clamoring somewhere downstream. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: i reallly dislike noun strings, espcially as the count goes over 3.
mp_en_viaje: i had to look up this "Nexus Intruder program class attack" ; remarkably i got nothing : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Nexus+Intruder+program+class+attack.%22
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:28 diana_coman: it seems quite surprising to me there isn't more interest but tbf I haven't used local WU ever, would need to even look it up, lol.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907057 << it was remarkably painless in munich ; some turkish i think dood in a tobacconist-7/11mix, took all of five minutes. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907044 << i actually don't think "floating point" is a good idea altogether. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 00:45 OriansJ: I've been exploring the logs and one thing you may wish to know about bootstrapping MIPS is humans writing assembly need only 7 registers (I round up to 16 to include Stack pointer(s) and Condition register(s) and if my goal was optimize for C compiler performance, I would have gone with 64 registers (architecturally unified between the Integer unit and the Floating point unit but leveraging the trick of the DEC Alpha 21264 and
diana_coman: I wanted to ask whether Bartholomew went back to its roots!! ☟︎
mp_en_viaje: not like i took the cars or etc.
mp_en_viaje: depends what you're doijng, you know, if i go to visit prague for a week i don't take the whole menagerie.
diana_coman: it's not hard to have a lot of luggage, sure; though I never really regretted having smaller luggage as it were (and I almost always find it too big, too much anyway!)
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, stripper heels, buttplugs, electronics, i got like 14 suits... it's heavy, what.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907026 << i can't conceive what small endian ~even is for~. what is it for ? i'm against even supporting it altogether, you want to computer, use a computer that netowrk oders. ☝︎☟︎
mp_en_viaje: they used to have 100% of my euro biz, back when i last was in yurp.
mp_en_viaje: but! c) i show up, explain i got 3 people but ~200kgs of luggage (i'm fucking diana ross over here) and their idea was to.... pay for ticket, after which show up at airport, ~with no carrier guarantee whatsoever~. "pay us so many thousands to put yourself in such a spot, we can ask for any moar moneyz we think of". ☟︎
mp_en_viaje: and by "stuff" i mean http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846492 to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-09#1859711 transition and such. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:25 OriansJ: well, I guess a really important question to ask is at what level of lithography people here actually have trust? (1 transistor, AND Gate in TTL, 100 Gate ALU, 1000 Gate ULA, 10000 Gate Asic, .... FPGA, 1B+ gate CPU, etc)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907014 << actually my own questiosn are different. line 1 : is this a live project or is it mostly scar tissue left behind a dead dude a la http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ ; line 2 how pantsuit-infested is it, actually, can we work together or will we have to fork if we intend to. basically, "looks remarkably good, i wonder what's the catch" phase. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:53 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:45 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: well I guess we need to discuss short term vs long term expectations as those pieces seem to be multiple pieces pulling in different directions
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906994 << the long term expectation, along with the only possible direction, is the republic prevailing, in this as any other matter. there's a lot of ideological debt you may be interested in i guess. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << the lordship list is over at http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ ; those are all (if not the only) contributors. in the immortal words of joe polito, "i'm telling you, as a courtesy. i need to do this thing, so it's gonna get done". ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:17 OriansJ: So I hear there is some interest in bootstrapping architectures here
BingoBoingo: Do you still have the WU information or should I GPGgram it again
PeterL: is it ok if I get that sent out first thing tomorrow?
phf: bvt: do you mind signing http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp the version at http://btcbase.org/data/vtools/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp.vpatch i reground it for keccak and new manifest
asciilifeform: phf: hrm i missed the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907295 ln. on init. read. patients with this symptom have exceedingly poor prognosis (witness e.g. Framedragger , succumbed to torcancer year+ after init. remission..) but it aint like the triage queue is full , thought worth try. ☝︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907286 << to make matters worse still -- i tried , but still cannot fathom what was the connection b/w the linked pediwikism and the thread.. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand ) ☝︎☝︎☟︎
OriansJ: phf: I have always felt precise and clear communication can only occur when both parties are open to the expression to incomplete thoughts with the goal of synchronize understandings. Otherwise the communication style is forced into a form of data dumps with long load times and a general ineffectiveness of cooperation between individuals; particularly when the delta between individuals is large.
phf: OriansJ: so i've thought about it, expressing concepts in forms for general consumption is a bad coping mechanism from a life time of being the smartest person in the room (assuming that it's not a ruse or self-delusion and you _are_ actually capable of clear thinking). problem is that it makes you lazy and rots the brain, and then when you're in the room of equals or superiors you suddenly discover that you're not practiced at ☟︎
OriansJ: phf: well few people would understand that position; so I tend to express concepts in forms for general consumption. Even though it will result in loss of precision; as few people are technical enough to care about the details lost.
phf: oh you just don't support html in general (presumably you still http with something like wget), i think your position would've been a lot stronger if you just said so, rather then something something tor browser. i'm vaguely curious what "non-turing complete svg subset" is, but that's a stone that will have to be turned some other time
OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches. ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: phf: I have no web browser on my regular machine nor any desire to add one.
phf: OriansJ: i don't understand what your comment is in response to, would you mind elaborating
OriansJ: I would like to thank everyone here; for helping me to realize the importance of good documentation.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907277 << it works fine without the javascript, i use it regularly in lynx (and occasional exotic browsers like netsurf), but i suspect it will fail in a browser, that both fails to display SVG and then fails to display a link map ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-04-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: and they are that by personal, wholly owned choice. nobody asked them, or told them, or "made them" act in the specific manner of their subhuman nature, whereby "1. if it's not comfortable ~to me~ i'm 'not interested' because 2. i expect there's enough of us animals around so that 3. under the pressure of our wilful ignorance the republic will be forced to change and adapt."
spyked: from where I'm looking, this is precisely http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-18#1802051 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
OriansJ: well; I guess we will have to see. Until then
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i gotta take off shortly. you will definitely want to speak to mp, whose chan this is. ( he is travelling but i expect will stop by some time in next coupla d )
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I've hit http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v and no it doesn't display without javascript enabled ☟︎
asciilifeform: there's in fact moar than i can list from memory in coupla min.'s time and coupla log ln. of space.
asciilifeform: other people have other projects, i was speaking strictly of own thus far.
asciilifeform: for all i know already choked
asciilifeform: i.e. performs, e.g. rsa, with zero conditional-on-inputs branch instructions, anywhere.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aite. i'ma lie down again soon tho
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: With the conversation going on I figured it's time to let someone else carry the voicing.
asciilifeform: 'мажоритарная логика' (majority-logic) in the general case, i do not recall what the english folx call it ( afaik they gave up on it errywhere other than orbit in recent yrs )
OriansJ: I would have expected more code-morph style engineering given that hardware style.
asciilifeform: i do not claim to have invented the method.
asciilifeform: ^ i.e. a unit suspected of containing hidden functionality vis-a-vis any other existing unit, can be 'slaved' to the latter , and the outputs compared.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you're interested in concrete approach of asciilifeform to design of iron, i invite to study http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html , item asciilifeform designed & sold ( two runs sold out 100% , possibly in near future we bake a 3rd, on ice40 and photoscintillator , as discussed in logs )
OriansJ: Creating anything I find interesting or useful. Be it through mutual cooperation or single sided self-interest.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I seek out potential; and I heard there was potential here.
asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ? ☟︎
OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed ☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i recommend to read the log. you will find that asciilifeform is not the only 1 who finds it effective reference.
asciilifeform: i find it quite effective.
asciilifeform: from pov of this thread, it is a practical example that sane (i.e. typechecking & boundschecking of ALL memory accesses) iron in fact existed, and even fit in 1980s vlsi (2um)
asciilifeform: i have the orig. paper docs, they fill a bookcase, but they're actually all mirrored there.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/I_Machine/ , http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/software/ , for starters.
asciilifeform: the only semiconductor i've so far baked with own hands is cu oxide diode.
asciilifeform: i'll happily buy it. along with the promised tabletop fusion plant...
asciilifeform: OriansJ: what if my definition of 'trusted chip' is specifically where i own the gear and no other people are involved at any stage ?
asciilifeform: i.e. turn '4000 square metres and 400 mil. $' process into tabletop.
asciilifeform: and i do not see anything in the linked recipe to suggest a kitchenable process.
asciilifeform: i.e. there is nothing there to suggest that the author has discovered a peculiarly cheap method of fabbing ic
asciilifeform: 1st , i cannot resist to ask, what is/was 'libresilicon' ?
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I am good with that as well; provided we actually bootstrap it properly
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i am not proposing it as 'boostrap for pc', but as ~replacement~ for pc.
OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own) ☟︎
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if i'm baking e.g. dram refresher -- then quite easily (and very frustratingly, in actual practice did, it is why it is ~impossible to bake a decent dram controller from scratch using fpga that hasn't been 'solved' ice40-style )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: incidentally, a pattern matcher on i/o pin will affect propagation delay
OriansJ: asciilifeform: so the Fab knows those cells will be for I/O and we know some common patterns of I/O that we can eletrically detect
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i specifically picked the part for this attribute. ( ice40 was not 'solved' yet at the time , but it has quite similar topology )
OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I am thinking libresilicon which we could do today
asciilifeform: OriansJ: not all. matter of fact, the 1 used in http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html has no dedicated cells, aside from i/o
asciilifeform: OriansJ: let's posit. what does this give you, if you do not know what is connected to the i/o pins ? beyond ability to short +v to - and smoke
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:51 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 << i recommend to read the logs re 'specificity' ( picture yourself baking a sabotaged fpga , for victim whose gate net you do not know in advance. what would you put in it ? )
asciilifeform: re 'classes of attack', i'm particularly curious re what is OriansJ answ to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907086 puzzler ☝︎
OriansJ: Sane Iron is a great goal that I believe needs to be done but I also believe that a chain of trust needs to be built to allow Sane Iron to be safe from some classes of attacks.
asciilifeform: i'm not currently sure that there is in fact any overlap between these two problems
asciilifeform: OriansJ: possibly we are speaking at cross purposes. having eaten the log, i formed impression that OriansJ is interested in hypothetical sane iron, and not merely dethompsonization of x86 pc.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: Your level of bootstrap is considerably higher level than mine. I assume I have to hand toggle in the root binary and hand assemble everything.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I disagree. String support should be in software not hardware
OriansJ: asciilifeform: no where did I say null terminated strings; it could be length prefixed strings but support for strings needs to exist in a human readable bootstrap. ☟︎