log☇︎
12200+ entries in 0.287s
mircea_popescu: can't do it when you pay to a proper addy.
Mocky: ok well, thanks. hopefully that doesn't curse me. but also i "have" "bitcoin" in various dark markets that i want to actually own and I don't trust them to send accurate decimal to trinque's walletron ☟︎
trinque: 'til it isn't
mircea_popescu: donkey, also can't breathe underwater.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform driving through water is a major engineering problem though. unless specifically amphibian landing vehicle, ytou won't get it.
mircea_popescu: Mocky no, rear wheels go woosh. but ever so slightly, it's so stable you wouldn't believe.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 14:07 Mocky: I'm confused about trb rpc. Log search suggests for the first year+ of bitcoin foundation rpc was marked for death: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-28#1417175 but then there's dump / eat block based on rpc? Is this a new version of rpc, I don't see a new version announced on the mailing list. Can someone sum this up for me, I'm having trouble following the history.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827994 << yes but this won't likely work here ; the dependency tree is like 10x trb's. ☝︎
Mocky: I'm confused about trb rpc. Log search suggests for the first year+ of bitcoin foundation rpc was marked for death: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-28#1417175 but then there's dump / eat block based on rpc? Is this a new version of rpc, I don't see a new version announced on the mailing list. Can someone sum this up for me, I'm having trouble following the history. ☝︎☟︎
diana_coman: well, either there is cuntoo and then can try with it or there isn't, in which no choice apparently other than rotor buildroot style
diana_coman: esp libmysqlclient is potentially iffy because it has dependencies that go deeper but atm I don't know until I try it; unless someone else tried similar /knows better?
asciilifeform: 'Unix doesn't specify an order in which readdir() and listdir() should return the contents of a directory, so components can get built in an unpredictable order' << this is gonna need a cure.
asciilifeform: also didjaknow! , 'Building everything from sources that one has hand-inspected is a solution to this, but it doesn't scale. Many of us aren't qualified to spot security weaknesses...' etc
asciilifeform: ( btw , in case it wasn't clear, static-musltronic-gcc outputs run on conventional ~and~ musltronic linux )
mircea_popescu: wasn't the idea that we build it with itself and so on ?
mod6: <+diana_coman> asciilifeform, BingoBoingo it is NOT asap, no; take your time, no hurry << barring a straight out emergency, I can't get away at the moment. About a month ago, I was trying to plan a trip around end of July; but now, that's locked out.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you haven't , pleeeez do
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you don't need cuntoo to build musl executables, ave1's gnat does this on an ~arbitrary linux. ( via similar method as the 2015 'rotor' item )
asciilifeform: just about errything that doesn't abuse some glibc-specific knob, runs 100% under muslism ( e.g. trb, which was the first proggy i personally built for musl, back in the http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000133.html days )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:08 phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works
diana_coman: that doesn't make any sense
FundsAreSafuh: joining is for folks who don't belong
asciilifeform: FundsAreSafuh: you won't win much from plain lurking, i recommend to read the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826916, I don't use emacs. I've tried it on an off and after reading the logs I'm sure I do not want to get "locked in" to it. ☝︎
phf: you don't like rail? rail take you place no problem
phf: hmm true, also the soviets probably wouldn't make those german style train stations
phf: huh i don't remember that style at all. looks like metal too, the ones that i had were plastic, kind of like https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L350032-LN_3314489_Qty1_1.jpg
mircea_popescu: i didn't have incline ramps in mine. but yes, these existed
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: don't tell the inca but i fly
ben_vulpes: and this is why i still don't have many male friends "we're going to go fly quadcopters!" "...why don't we drive out to the hangar and take the plane out instead?"
ben_vulpes: the montesorri stuff makes me laugh. oh, you mean the little learning machine thrives on new and varied challenges? you don't fucking say
mircea_popescu: but yes, the universal, uniyelding, perpetual and ubiquitous problem of "people" who were born even though god didn't have souls to supply the meat with is this : life's too heavy a burden.
phf: i think the causation is backwards, egan chooses substrate, assumes consciousness can exist on that substrate, then explores properties of substrate. doesn't say anything interesting about consciousness, but exploration of substrate. since naive mechanistic cellular machine interpretations are in vogue, that's the substrate that egan works with.
mircea_popescu: esthlos consciousness can't exist "in" a computer.
esthlos: but then what _is_ the cpu state but an arrangement of electrons? and why can't I say "these electrons on my butt are cpu state 53, those on alpha centauri are cpu state 54..."
esthlos: my vague understanding is: if consciousness can exist "in" a computer, then what happens when the cpu states are reorganized arbitrarily, or distributed spatially? egan supposes that conscious entity can't detect the effect.
esthlos doesn't know the first thing about ruling
phf: esthlos: i don't think that's the case, squeak was his main apple project, but even going before than dynabook was already in the works at parc
Mocky: oh man dr dobbs, haven't seen that in ages. I used to get the dead tree version
phf: but his goal with smalltalk etc. wasn't to build a machine for grownups, it was supposed to be a montessori creative exploration device
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't know if there's a definition, "idea" would've been a better term. in any case i've never heard anything concrete, except for the papert/piaget/montessori like esthlos said statements.
mircea_popescu: i can;t fucking believe english doesn't have an equivalent for "hangman's face"
esthlos: o course, don't think he's done anything of merit since those days.
phf: esthlos: that was never the case (though it certainly looked that way didn't it), the golden age of vlsi happened because of a darpa grant, essentially "give us your designs, we'll fab it for you free of charge"
ben_vulpes: well yeah doods don't even say hello, much less issue compliments anymore.
mircea_popescu: i hadn't even realised this before.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it... i don't know of a single case of girl laying a... student.
ben_vulpes: esthlos: ah, once a classy joint i hear. since then, well, epicenter of "i don't date nazis" nonsense
Mocky: like running any named command with M-x, why can't i do that in my browser, or cad program or whaterver
Mocky: revisiting emacs: the problem for me, and the reason i quit it after ~1 year is that the cut between editor / os / keyboard was so obviously wrong. once you get comfortable with the useful stuff in there it sucks that you then can *only* use it in emacs. what, i can't have a decent editor for anything outside of emacs? most of the answers to that question are either a) fuck emacs or b) fuck everything outside of
asciilifeform: btw i still haven't tracked down a ro-made z80, most of my collection is from ddr
asciilifeform: contention isn't 'can't do anyffing'
mircea_popescu: in discussion is the "can't do anything, pentium sucks"
asciilifeform: re 'manifest matter at will' : in early 2000s asciilifeform grasped the mega-problem , that programming ain't actually hard, except for stripping away the monkey shit produced by 50 yrs of monkey. 'i want a sane emacs' turned into 'sane prog lang' and quickly 'sane os' then 'sane iron' , and afaik this actually the inevitable correct cut, rather than caprice
asciilifeform: ( 'you wouldn't download mercedes!' -- idjit usg copyrasty poster ; 'i would if i could, motherfuckers' ( answer ) )
asciilifeform: who wouldn't
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 19:35 mircea_popescu: to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?"
mircea_popescu: because in all honestly, i wouldn't even ~deign~ rto look upon the shit that's dailymail other than through n layers of awk. i don't CARE whjat they think they're saying asnymore than i care what the fetwhores think they're saying.
mircea_popescu: and it doesn't stop there ; are you aware "modern browser" won't even allow luser to set referrer string ? it's either "nothing at all" or else "Speak the truth". why ? so that fetlife can imp[lement faux security a la "oh, your referrer is incorrect, best relogin".
mircea_popescu: you've already stopped using x11. that you don't admit this, well, different story. but in point of fact, x11 is already off by default.
a111: Logged on 2015-02-26 21:07 asciilifeform: mats: for one thing, it it can't be piped over ip, it isn't a substitute for x
mircea_popescu: maybe i really don't want to look at it as a succession of numbers. why, because i'm such a troglodyte ?
mircea_popescu: e to be able to not have to plot "< awk -F, '/Bitterbean/ {print $3,$5}' testall.csv" using 1:2 t "Better Bitterbean" w p pt 1, \"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then we don't.
ben_vulpes: i don't really see the point to importing rounded corners into republican tooling
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes inca can't use proper tools.
ben_vulpes: implementing the DOM and all of the california complexity doesn't mesh neatly with the text rendering already extant. i use emacs as wm around browser and some other things (not many other things, really, but 'modern' dom-o-tron is sadly yet central to $work), for the expediency of my workbench having a single scriptinglang to move windows around, split whole monitor and arrange for specific workflows...
mircea_popescu: best definition of what a cult is, incidentally. "why was this cut there specifically ?" "i dunno." that's it, that's a cult. can't answer as to why was something cut where it was.
phf: there are layers and layers of cruft, some things that we haven't mentioned but that's implicitly part of the conversation. should there be x11, should emacs be the first thing that linux boots and nothing else, etc.
mircea_popescu: to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?" ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:52 mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
phf: asciilifeform: back then i had slightly different concerns, nor did i build anything that wasn't already built. the whole thing compiles with djgpp, clisp is also available. bulk of the code i wrote was either common lisp by way of clisp or allegro "games" and visual hacks and such
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way errybody loses ancient arts. by overwriting the parchments and wax tablets, by neglect, by 'surely won't need this again', lol
mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes" ☟︎
asciilifeform doesn't, because does not particularly like the 'emacs hosed, all machine may as well reset' dynamic
mircea_popescu: the honest truth of the matter is that we don't even know what we want yet
mircea_popescu: but if it can't do everything then why have it.
asciilifeform: ( tho i can picture a hypothetical commonlisp-emacs that doesn't ever need to socket , because has compiler inside, like ye olde borland )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't even care so much about that, because of the well ilustrated, here and everywhere else, history of idiots involvement.
mircea_popescu: ftr, i don't believe this "save object code" thing is handled correctly.
phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( if it ain't resolved -- asciilifeform can't use, fullstop )
mircea_popescu: if you don't wanna be potentially sexed, don't potentially open the potent doors.
trinque: this is why I don't intend to put emacs into the genesis
mircea_popescu: most all of it is "so if it hurts, don't do that"
phf: climacs also had insane resource usage and equally large dependencies, can't run it without mcclim, and we've had a thread about that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it ain't intractable, and ranks substantially below, resource-wise, e.g. replacement of gcc
phf: e.g. i'm using 22 for work, and in order to get slime working on it, i had to revert slime to some 2010 version, which in turn wasn't quite compatible with sbcl, etc. etc.
asciilifeform: phf: i don't have ~that~ many elisps that'd need repair.
mircea_popescu: trinque so then your desk can't be part of paperwork delivery because courrier doesn't know how to leave you paper ; and you'll have to clea nthe room yourself as the black woman hired to clean the place can't interact with your desk ?
trinque: "nah, can't bend the girl over that corner. right corner is the pussy tray!"
trinque: mircea_popescu: because I don't want to discuss with anyone how my own private desk is arranged
mircea_popescu: as it stands right now, i truly can't grok the fundamental difference between the behaviour you describe and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-17#1814985 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: phf and i'm a troglodyte for thinking this isn't right ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
mircea_popescu: phf the problem there is, that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing this.
mircea_popescu: and the discussion isn't "default ones". discussion is "cultural ones", ie, "the complete mass of expectations"
asciilifeform: the default ones aren't merely short leg, but rusty nails protruding in 9000 places on 'desk'
phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa ☟︎
mircea_popescu: phf yes; but amusingly asciilifeform doesn't admit this. somehow.