log☇︎
104100+ entries in 0.067s
asciilifeform: trend's been entirely towards 'britneyization', 'economy of scale', 'build 500x larger and costlier production line but make $1 cheaper dies'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in ~factory~ machinery, afaik the trend's been quite the opposite ( small manufacturers of ic existed in 1970s by the thousand, in 1980s -- by the hundred, today -- gone. ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: ideally you want a 'polaroid'-sized box, i.e. a fungible cartridge that starts out as coupla grams of sandwiched $layers, and ends up after exposure as $ic
mircea_popescu: well, it already fits ; just box is too large. you want smaller box. miniaturization has been the trend forever, and maybe miini's law still holds.
asciilifeform: ( and somehow admit the feedstock like film is admitted into camera, i.e. without introducing dust )
asciilifeform: 'clean room' solves itself if you could somehow get 100% of the process to fit in a reasonably small hermetic box..
mircea_popescu: but certainly, lotta space to cover.
mircea_popescu: those two parts least amenable, yes. clean room, maybe more.
asciilifeform: and HF is same bitch today as in 1800s.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: doubtful, for same reason that electron microscope has not become any cheaper. high vacuum system is a bitch, and exactly same bitch today as in 1930.
asciilifeform: 'polaroid' is not the only possible scheme for ic sanity. could also have something akin to current-day 'dye sublimation' printer.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, with the ever lowering cost of robotics, there is some hope even classical ic process will become manageable.
asciilifeform: not to mention the 'clean room' business, where 1 flake of skin easily is enuff dirt to ruin ~several~ chips
asciilifeform: PeterL: indeed it does. however it also involves sputtering ( in, naturally, high vacuum ) to deposit metal, HF (and other nasties) to etch it away , and various other painfuls
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 18:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i strongly suspect that 'polaroid' is the correct path. ( i.e. photographic input of where-what-goes; all of the chemistry needed -- sealed in a capsule, pops and exposes )
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-30#1806628 << doesn't the current process already involve exposing light to make the masks? ☝︎
mircea_popescu: that's what my comment would probably have been directed at, i guess : that the religious notion of purity is not merely impractical, but counterfactual.
PeterL: I guess the religionsts would impart a different meaning to "clean" as well
mircea_popescu: this is equivocating the meaning of "cleanning". smegma fulfills the same role, biologically, but it is also the paragon of uncleanliness in social terms.
PeterL: like I said, can't find it now, but at the time I thought of replying: cunt is self-cleasing when it self-lubricates
mircea_popescu: i don't specficially remember this ; but possibly. frequently used item generally in better shape than disused.
PeterL: mircea_popescu: I remember seeing sometime in the logs you said (but I can't find it now) something along the lines of: girls that have sex have cleaner smelling cunt than the one who doesn't get any?
mircea_popescu: thx for the reporting.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly you have a handwritten mpex.biz entry in /etc/hosts and points to different box ?
mircea_popescu: now this is some primo strange.
mircea_popescu: i...see it. wtf shenanigans be these.
asciilifeform: they redirect to main pg
asciilifeform: ( the individual pgs, e.g. snsa, dun seem to yet )
mircea_popescu: will keep an eye out for a day or two just in case. complaints y quejas go here <
ave1: As far as I can see, the culprit is this part "-I/opt/gnat/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.9.4/rts-native/adalib /opt/gnat/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.9.4/rts-native/adalib/../adainclude", It contains a space in the "-I", so now gnatmake thinks it needs to build an "adainclude" which will fail. I'll look into how these vars a set. (It's the ADA_INCLUDES flag in the makefile).
asciilifeform: nor does it seem to exist in the given tarballs.
asciilifeform: and i will point out that 'adainclude.ali' does not exist on ANY of my systems.
asciilifeform: strace actually shows , loox like, the culprit : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3jZbc/?raw=true << ( only last lines shown )
asciilifeform: ave1: i've confirmed that all of the paths, as they appear in the snippet, actually contain their respective items
ave1: Ofcourse, I will see how these flags influence the script and fix what needs to be fixed.
ave1: I've run on multiple systems (ubuntu and redhat), procedure has been to unpack the adacore binary file, set path and go (no ADA_*_PATH)
ave1: hmmm, I've never had to set these before
asciilifeform: ( try it )
asciilifeform: without these, gnat dun work at all
ave1: No it should pick up the system build one
ave1: Yes, I will also try with those two flags now... (Could you try without?)
asciilifeform: from your log it looks as if it is looking for some build-local version of adainclude, rather than the machinewide one ?
lobbesbot: ave1: Sent 24 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> ... and it is infuriatingly annoying that yer thing demands 'build' dir be deleted each time, starting the 3hrs from 0 for each attempt
ave1: asciilifeform: the exact same line in my build output shows almost the same -I directories, except all end with adalib/../adainclude, that last part '../adainclude' seems to be missing on your side. I will start a rebuild with some extra logging on that line. I will get back to it tomorrow. In the mean time, I have only set the path to the adacore gnat tools and I do not have any other GNAT* flags or CFLAGS or LDFLAGS etc. etc.
mircea_popescu: if only the guarantee of not being mediocre could be obtained, i could see myself blessing slavegirls with much longer travails.
asciilifeform: it is even conceivable that asciilifeform's hands grow out of his arse; so it'd be handy if somebody else were to try the $item
mircea_popescu: even a mediocre child takes nine months to bake.
asciilifeform very muchly appreciates the... effort; but so far neither of the gnat builders actually worked in asciilifeform's hands
mircea_popescu: heck, i am now contemplating the strict unthinkable years ago, a sane build process for eulora server o.O
mircea_popescu: ave1, and lest it's get lost in the chatter, your work is very much appreciated.
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell ave1 ... and it is infuriatingly annoying that yer thing demands 'build' dir be deleted each time, starting the 3hrs from 0 for each attempt
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell ave1 barfology: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/5Yn0Y/?raw=true ( after 2+ hrs , and yes box has gnat 2016, and paths set in env )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yes, but they keep taking it off the shelf and gueing it to weather balloons to "Space flight" etc.
asciilifeform: ( it is used for reversing, when you want to cut particular trace, or create one, or strip away sumthing )
mircea_popescu: (ie, expensive to make, eminently useless in practice)
asciilifeform: it's an off-the-shelf industrial power tool, wat. already has use. just, no good for 'from empty crystal' ic-makin'.
mircea_popescu: turns out that's not really what ion beams are.
mircea_popescu: space wars, cancer curing, computer making, peeling potatoes, whatever the fuck.
asciilifeform: ^ ion beam epitaxy, for instance, is this
asciilifeform discounts wankage where 'each transistor takes 3min to etch', esp. from grant-eaters, as simple grantsmanship
asciilifeform periodically looks for some evidence, somewhere, that anybody has even conceived of working on 'polaroid-style' fabbing; to date found 0 , public or otherwise
mircea_popescu: maybe in time.
asciilifeform: well ~somehow~ he conceived of the notion that 'fab dun have to cost $bil' but took it no further than the folx discussed in the 'gas tank additive THEY dun want you to know!' thread
mircea_popescu: got no time for that, too busy wanking with high end microscopes.
asciilifeform: ( nor, i suspect, even knows how to conceptualize this )
asciilifeform: d00d has nfi that classical ic fab is technopolitical dead end.
asciilifeform: in the particular case -- i suspect simple failure of imagination.
mircea_popescu: in front of this, whether we idly decide that he's just dumb or actually evil, ie, his brain dun work like in the case of say bernstein ; or his brain doth work, but he deliberately attempts to shannonize republican words into imperial outcomes, a la curtis yarvin, jwz, whatever.... well what fucking difference does it make. ☟︎☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: so yes, in conclusion, exactly as you say the linkd fellow is misdirected, and in EXACTLY in the manner discussed in http://trilema.com/2018/the-republic-without-mp/#selection-153.0-165.95
asciilifeform: moar than adequate for the sort of things we do, if massaged properly.
mircea_popescu: there's an exponential at work. which is the point here -- meshable micro will beat tyhe shit out of "color of bits" imperial bullshit.
asciilifeform: 'lego them up' very quickly gives fridge-sized thing that runs at 500kHz.
mircea_popescu: intel "solving" thge wholly hallucinated (if self-servingly) non-"problem" of "smaller process" is not helping me. it's helping "its shareholders", ie usg.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gotta have at least 1uM process, to be of practical use, by my reckoning
mircea_popescu: my problem with the ZX processors IS EMINENTLY NOT that "they're too big". is that i can't buy 500k of them and lego them up.
asciilifeform at one time made own pcb routinely, 2sided even, and all of the req'd kit fit in a suitcase and most of it obtainable at photography shops
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, which brings us back to what i said, "even if not nm"
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing the encapsulation doesn't havfe advantages. it does, which is why yes, laser paper universal as well as palcental mammals universal.
BingoBoingo: New year is January 1st. Is there a second parallel Jew year that starts in May?
asciilifeform: the diff is in re how commoditizable/fungible the raw material. it is not trivial to make paper that'll feed a laser printer and not catch fire / clog the rollers, but no one suffers any shortage of said paper today, it is produced on massive scale and sold for half penny / sheet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, let's call it a ~design~ notation process, rather than fabbing ?
asciilifeform: b&w photography is imho correctly seen as 'garage affair', notwithstanding that not 1 in 100,000 photohobbyists could produce the film
BingoBoingo: And it turns out the locals get YET ANOTHER fucking holiday tomorrow. This one is because they claim they LABOR!
mircea_popescu: it's something like bullet. "hard to make gunpowder, need saltpeter" "i know, we'll make these little cartridges, with the needed saltpeter included" "yes but now you need a bullet factory"
asciilifeform: nope. and i'd think the diff is pretty clear
asciilifeform: ( maker of the film has nfi what will be exposed on it, where . )
mircea_popescu: i don't dispute this is where it's headed, human reproduction system took the "we shall emulate original sea" step of eggs one notch further, yes.
mircea_popescu: and you'd make this sea-in-skin womb in your garage ?
asciilifeform: rather than, e.g., physically moving microscopic parts ( generally a nonstarter )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i strongly suspect that 'polaroid' is the correct path. ( i.e. photographic input of where-what-goes; all of the chemistry needed -- sealed in a capsule, pops and exposes ) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, arguably menopausal vagina not anymore vagina than engine on foil is car.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 16:16 asciilifeform: ( for the sake of thread-completeness, what would the ~alternative~ to this story look like? i suggest -- it'd be a process which does to ic fab what 'polaroid' process did to colour photography. find way of etching the circuit from prefab 'sandwich' without caustic baths, sputtering, etc... )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-30#1806521 << i'll tell you what it would look like. every seen one of those large acid sheets back at the acid sheet factory ? before being broken into tiny bits for the street vendors ? THAT. except of course in reverse, let me print bits and smash them together into large fabrics. EVEN IF they're not nm. ☝︎
asciilifeform: recall the legend ( i have nfi from what country it originated..) re the clever scammer who sold counterfeiters 'dollar printing machine', which worked great until hidden box ran out of dollarz
mircea_popescu: and it's true, of course. for the moartea-ca-o-veste-buna folk, that's exactly how everything goes, "how to make shit ? start with bread."
mircea_popescu: iirc one of the usg's own oligarchs (ie, inept dorks given money by a govt to pretend they're businessmen and can compete with us, exactly in the vein of http://trilema.com/2014/the-death-of-taxes/#selection-185.266-185.1138 ) even SAID THOSE WORDS.
asciilifeform: on one hand, d00d ~did~ demonstrate grasp of the physical principles behind ic. on other hand -- to offer the result up in the dressing it is offered in -- is, to put it softly, misleading.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaaha. sorta like a high-tech version of it. or moar general phenomenon of 'easy to make $mil: begin with $bil..'