deedbot: shurdeek voiced for 30 minutes.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-25 01:18 mircea_popescu: a db is a good tool for pre-given solutions for some kinds of problems. it is not a tool for implementing arbitrary expressivity.
trinque: ben_vulpes: you should hear my oil buddy talk about excel sometime
ben_vulpes: that said the rigorish typing of postgres has been a boon in this one circumstance where the tower of complexititus threatens to overwhelm me at every step
trinque: dunno if it'll make you laugh or cry, but either's good drinking
ben_vulpes: trinque: you know i tell folks i squirt grease on the largest $problem-domain spreadsheet they could possibly imagine when they ask what i do; i can laugh and cry about it allll day
ben_vulpes: btw mircea_popescu #templeos-irc is a wall of noise, terry is out to lunch
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, i dun agree ; excel is clown car. the db stuff... not really.
ben_vulpes: sure, john deere with anal impaler in operator seat
ben_vulpes: when will it fire will it fire today let's find out
ben_vulpes: i exaggerate, db constraints and stored procedures and transactionality and permissions are all very nice things.
mircea_popescu: unlike vbasic and moreover, the very fucking NOTION of "here is a list of cells, grapghically displayed"
mircea_popescu: worst possible assumptions made for this gui-centric non-db system.
mircea_popescu: that it's popular with the sort of meat puppets populating the pantsuit vatfarms is unsurprising -- it's pretty much engineered to cater to their batshit insane worldview.
mircea_popescu: there's a very deep link between "putin doesn't understand how the world works ; notwithstanding which he stole our election" and "cell (5,7) on your screen".
ben_vulpes: links to the ml advocates, their jupyter notebooks, and the troubles they have "getting from research to production" too i'd hazard
ben_vulpes: "can never demonstrate the absence of bugs" notwithstanding, i don't know why folks don't slow down and test that their deliverables do what they claim before making claims
trinque sees untested deliverables on two legs every day
ben_vulpes: hey, one of my deliverables failed the external tests once
trinque: re: db, I'm reserving a lul now for when asciilifeform discovers that postgresql does, in fact, tell you what an operation will cost before you run it.
☟︎ trinque: mircea_popescu had it, industrial machinery, organizes gigantic sets, does a few things to make sure the wad isn't lost.
trinque: goodnight, many heads of the tit hydra
a111: Logged on 2018-04-26 03:41 trinque: re: db, I'm reserving a lul now for when asciilifeform discovers that postgresql does, in fact, tell you what an operation will cost before you run it.
mod6: I've always thought that DBAs are the most masochistic of the bunch.
mod6: It was recently that someone was like, "Hey, come work for us, there is a role as Database Arch..." "Umm. No thanks..."
mod6: That's one role that I've never wanted to have. I've watched these people wanna kill themselves for 20 years.
mod6: It can be especially bad when you inherit a wing-ding pile of garbage (i.e. no constraints, the usual nonsense) that also happens to be a sacred cow.
mod6: "OMG YOU CAN'T PUT IN KEYS!? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!1"
mod6: No, Thank You for playing. I'll go make screwdriver handles instead.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, as a general rule, when diagnosis tools are 0 help pretty much everywhere the problem is not the "poor quality of the ultrasound". you gotta be a doctor to read those.
mod6: this is true, explain plans can be hard to decipher when you first start looking at them.
mircea_popescu: mod6, amusingly, dba is one of the few it fields i'm somewhat familiar with. never wanted to kill self.
mircea_popescu: i think the problem is rather that people try to do it as work for hire. which works well enough for "flash programmers" and php copy-pasters and i guess "web designers".
mircea_popescu: but databases have this problem asciilifeform ran into, too, whereby they dun care about your mental models, adapt to their needs or go awya.
mod6: Ususally these guys come in and have to wrangle this mess of shit.
mircea_popescu: and since most people a) have to deal with "idea men", ie dorks whose undisciplined mental process was never really checked by reality and b) don't ever have the authority to tell them off... well... of course the result is temptation to suicide.
mod6: I kinda like trying to performance tune databases a bit... just as long as I don't have to "own" the db.
mod6: The field has a lot of depth. It's kinda wild.
mod6: For instance, the database in the salt mine here, is 400+ tables and growing.
mod6: Most of these need not exist. But, alas, sacred cow. Na na na na. Can't touch this.
mod6: So, don't mind looking at it, just don't wanna be responsible for it :]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there ~can~ be a reason for it. you're saying "whether the geometry is braindamaged or not depends on whether my naive assumptions of metrics are satisfied or not, therefore only some of the n-spheres are valid geometry". not so.
mircea_popescu: now, whether the abstrusity has any good practical reason, that's a different concern. but in principle you can end up with the sad fate where both "trying to go to the store" is a lifetime adventure and there's very good reasons for it being so.
mircea_popescu: which is why i don't agree "wild west ie wisconsin in 1860" is "braindamaged". notwithstanding the sheer lack of convenience stores.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, from the same "first principles" you can expect impossible properties in extended geometries. you're familiar with this, yes ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 19:34 asciilifeform: Framedragger: i am increasingly finding that 'general purpose db' is, like the infamous 'vise-grip', The Wrong Tool For Every Job
mircea_popescu: SELECT LAST_INSERT_ID(); always faster than select count*
mircea_popescu: well, i imagine eg the cracked moduli get sent to a table of their own.
mircea_popescu: if it's cheap enough for deedbot to broadcast, it's cheap enough for an insert
mircea_popescu: i can't see how this could possibly work ?! so you made a special, "this is where we copy cracked moduli" table, and inserted into it, and this slowed your querties on your main table ?
mod6: shouldn't have been a problem with row-level locking neh?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, seems to me you can always fill the cracked moduli table at the time you announce them to deedbot. shouldn't lock your main moduli table in being a diff table.
mod6: Command duration or timeout: 7 milliseconds
mod6: Build info: version: '2.50.1', revision: 'd7fc91b29de65b790abb01f3ac5f7ea2191c88a7', time: '2016-01-29 11:11:26'
mod6: System info: host: 'notus', ip: '127.0.0.1', os.name: 'Linux', os.arch: 'amd64', os.version: '3.16.0-4-amd64', java.version: '1.8.0_144'
mod6: Driver info: com.jamf.qa.automation.lib.web.common.browsers.ScrollableChromeDriver
mircea_popescu: ~at that time~, whenever it is, you can also insert them into a separate table with an autoindex field.
☟︎ mod6: anyway, might be a moot point now that youve changed your number crucher thingy.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: ~at that time~, whenever it is, you can also insert them into a separate table with an autoindex field.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-26 15:45 asciilifeform: because this here is an elementary instance of 'f-student uses bubble sort where adult would quicksort'
mircea_popescu: but i'm guessing "first principles" means different things depending on who's wielding it ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-25 15:26 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-25#1805475 << lol somehow nobody but me noticed the bug. i fixed it this morning, all that remains is to clean the crapola from the db, will do this after backup
mircea_popescu: but srsly, so what, you dirty the count and re-run the op to find it. big whoop, hapens once every 5 years
phf: i suspect that's it's my favorite SAT, mapping declarative problems to an optimal imperative solution is NP, but nobody approaches it that way anyway, instead it's heuristics which have specific failure modes on case by case basis. ascii can see see the "obvious" derivation of optimal imperative solution from declarative code, but postgresql's compiler can't
phf: i suspect a lot of these obvious derivations are well known too, but there's like 5 people who know enough postgresql internals to implement them.
phf: that is implement the necessary optimization
mircea_popescu: they're probably sitting somewhere polishing statuetters because the insane culture they live in misdirects them there rather than here.
mircea_popescu: which is how we have fucking "interfaces" and otherwise computers still run on an unexamined hope and an expiured prayer leftover from 1971
phf: asciilifeform: that's how allegro does it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i doubt i'd use this item for anything.
mircea_popescu: yeah, and this tower of pancake would have broken and i wouldn't use it.
phf: mircea_popescu: the ones that don't tend to be contracted by large postgresql users, but then the incentive is fucked up, because large postgresql users have already worked around the well known voodoo cases and want fancy new features instead, that run orthogonal to core (and in a very high level architectural sense are often the result of the core's "voodoo" limitations)
mircea_popescu: you understand this ? your car ALSO doesn't expose injector timings to you. i don't care you think you'd do a better job by hand. the direction's been away froim the fucking clutch, even. i personally own a car running tiptonic gearbox and girl who's an excellent stick driver, and she STILL prefers the autoclutch. because the machine does it way the fuck better, what.
mircea_popescu: the mechanical impedance of the pedal drowns out any possible contribution the human c9ould put in. the stick can fucking detect "hey, we're getting moved, undo the coupling!" electronically well enough
mircea_popescu: and so is the situation here, the management cost of the general purpose solution you propose by so far drowns out any possible benefit of "hey, alf had to learn something, instead of relying on his assumptions" you can't imagine.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: it's not worth much to you, ands this because you don't want to write postgres.
mircea_popescu: the ticket to insanity is trying to adapt systems for the benefit of those who didn't want to use them in the first place.
mircea_popescu: ties neatly into the above discussion re wasted talent also.
mircea_popescu: your problem isn't "postregs 10.0". your problem is exactly what i told you yest -- you want support for your recursion exposed by a fucking declarative lang. wtf.
mircea_popescu: because he knows both you and it well enough to lie to both and neither of you get it.
mircea_popescu: which yes, marks him for an exceptional manager, but remember -- traddutore, tradditore.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and reasonable performance seems to require manual shift and 'formula 1' pro race driver << Nah, Plenty of enthusiast vehicles are starting to get a "Drag Racing" transmission mode. Shifting in motorsports is mostly preserved for the sport aspect as opposed to the motor part.
BingoBoingo: Put vehicle into "drag race" mode. Smash gas pedal. Hold Steering wheel.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-26 17:03 mircea_popescu: and so is the situation here, the management cost of the general purpose solution you propose by so far drowns out any possible benefit of "hey, alf had to learn something, instead of relying on his assumptions" you can't imagine.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, you will not die if you step out of a narrow model. you're a very elegant thinker, and evidently imagine elegance is the only possible value. nevertheless, adherence can on occasion, howsoever rarely but proportionally painfully, actually more valuable than elegance.
mircea_popescu: pretty much every single thread of "oh, alf could solve this problem -- in a vacuum" comes down to this, an incorrect choice between the two in one of those rare field cases where adherence actually trumps elegance.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with declarative languages ; as proven by the very fact that you find yourself constrained to use them NOW AND AGAIN.
trinque: is this the same libreboot tranny, or yet another one
trinque: who can differentiate them
trinque: castrati gotta remove the taint!
mircea_popescu: "From March 2011 on, I have spent an insane amount of time on this. Codethink paid, all-in-all, 6 weeks of my time when i was between customer projects." << and then come here asking for TWENTy MILLIONS
mircea_popescu: because totally, that's what i'm competing with. it's not the case that per-hour imperial pay for computer work is under a cent.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, some dood, thought she did something or the other in crypto
mircea_popescu: "Now I have a choice. I can wait until i am in the mood to clean up this code and produce something useful for public consumption, and in the meantime see my name and my work slandered. Or... If i throw my (nasty) code over the wall, someone will rename/rewrite it, mess up a lot of things, and trash me for not having done corner X or Y, so essentially slander me and my work and probably even erase my achievements from history
mircea_popescu: , by using more of my work against me... And in the latter case i give people like Jasper and companies like Endless Mobile what they want, in spite of their contemptible actions and statements. Logically, there is only one conclusion possible in that constellation."
mircea_popescu: i honestly enjoy watching "good men" in the sense of dedicatedly evil but biologically promising intellects like this fucktard, the murdock dork and so on getting fucked.
mircea_popescu: everyone else has the ready excuse : i'm with usg because who else would give a straw hat for the asshole of a barely literate black woman ? ~condolezza rice.
mircea_popescu: that much makes sense. the empire of idiots is for and by idiots, yes.
mircea_popescu: heretics joining them -- well they utterly fucking deserve everything they get, don't they.
mircea_popescu: i do not even for a second believe they don't know better.
mircea_popescu: exactly like i don't for a second btcvixen or w/e it was doesn't know he's just a sad dork with a self-mutilated penis.
mircea_popescu: but they're doing the "Clever" thing they picked up at kiddy rape farm (aka "school" in their lingo), whereby "doing it because getting away with it"
mircea_popescu: or w/e, "let's see how far i can push nonsense before daddy finally loves me enough to say something"
trinque: creature from mircea_popescu's lj link