ben_vulpes: with the caveat that there is something funky with satoshi counts in this parser that i have yet to properly nail: http://cascadianhacker.com/2584.txt
ben_vulpes: in *my parser
mircea_popescu: well those nailings being the principal point of this exercise.
mircea_popescu: it'd be tremendously helpful for instance if the trb node had found it within its good graces TO FUCKING PUT TIMESTAMPS IN THE LOG.
ben_vulpes: oh and this doesn't actually render the header in a digestible form. okay, disregard.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: can you find this block in mimisbrunnr ?
ben_vulpes: doubtful that i would find it in the web interface, but possible in the blocks.
asciilifeform: aalso mircea_popescu looks like your node wedged in ... july ?! 2016
asciilifeform: it sat there wedged ever since ?!
mircea_popescu: well, 40k blocks yes ?
mircea_popescu: so it did.
asciilifeform: fwiw the heathens seem to have this same 419373 , https://blockchain.info/block-index/1242663
mircea_popescu: indeed.
mircea_popescu: it's not exactly a common condition, this ; which is both why i said something and why it wasn't noticed. simply no test for ~this~ never seen before nonsense
mircea_popescu: ie the node appeared fine.
asciilifeform: so apparently not a reorg problem
asciilifeform: at all
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: because the last block in mircea_popescu's blk0036 is a main-chain block
asciilifeform: it was never orphaned, and never had to get reorged out
mircea_popescu: ah in that sense. yes.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i plan to restart it sometime tomorrow, if anyone wants further datas it's a fine time to say.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: anything peculiar re that box, say, disk full ?
asciilifeform: dying raid ?
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: machine is fine.
ben_vulpes: previous block hash claims to be 0000000000000000036D2AFA6270C3A58C9A2093C706F0EACA4018E54BF2879C
asciilifeform: ever reset dirtily ? corrupt tx index ?
mircea_popescu: (all those and many others would have popped it for review you realise)
mircea_popescu: nope. it's been working continuously and undisturbed for as long again at least.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1 more thing
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can you get the log inclusive of the last ACCEPT (case-sensitive) and all lines after ?
asciilifeform: and post (gzip, probably)
asciilifeform: or, say, 100,000 ln. of it, ought to suffice.
mircea_popescu: i guess i'm just going to publish the log altogehter ?
asciilifeform: wouldn't hurt.
mircea_popescu: let's do that then
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if not mega-seekrit, did this node peer with well-known trb nodes (e.g., mine ) ?
mircea_popescu: not really ; unless yours randomly came to it.
asciilifeform: because this could be a 'pulling' problem , a 'pushing' one, or even both at once
asciilifeform: or neither -- a prb-everywhere-and-not-a-drop-to-drink problem , conceivably.
mircea_popescu: yes well.
asciilifeform: ( i lean to the latter hypothesis , it is a thing that regularly happened - admittedly not to the extent seen in mircea_popescu's specimen -- among my nodes, and was why i could no longer put off the 'wires' thing )
mircea_popescu: 9 months ?
asciilifeform: i don't keep any boxes on mars, that i can only check every 9 mo
mircea_popescu: "if they can do it to this guy they can do it to most any guy" is the idea here.
asciilifeform: but if i did - it could, yes
mircea_popescu: yes well.
asciilifeform: sooo somewhere in mircea_popescu's log, there'll be a getinv for 0000000000000000036, the prev block, then for this final one, 0000000000000000038 (complain to tardoshi re the procrusted hashes, not to me..) ,
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, i'll complain to you, because really there's no need trb logging be THIS RETARDED
mircea_popescu: ill complain to mod6 also.
asciilifeform: but, then , there ought to be a 0000000000000000013 getenv
mircea_popescu: this seems an easy enough to fix item.
asciilifeform: lolfair
ben_vulpes: slow to the show, but http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/419373
asciilifeform: *getinv
asciilifeform: 00000000000000000136 rather
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes aha!
mircea_popescu: loads of all that "unable to decode address" things, which is my only vague "there could be something here".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: grep -A 10000 "received block 00000000000000000136" mp_log.txt plox ?
mircea_popescu: ie, you ~could~, theoretically, write such shit into a block that it wedges nodes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im just zipping it and will put it up hang on
mircea_popescu: 91.8 0.0 11:57.45 gzip << fancy this wonder.
shinohai: Whatever the outcome of the node wedge fix is, I need to write all this down as it may be a powerful tool to fuck with enemy in the future.
mircea_popescu: shinohai but it's in teh logz!!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you might recall that trb does not attempt to decode tx scripts (yes) when verifying block
asciilifeform: (this was a major brain-melter during the prbisms thread)
mircea_popescu: no argument there ; you however may in turn recall that trb is by inheritance an utterly chtonian horror of heap allocation etc.
asciilifeform: the behaviour is inherited from tardoshi
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you have not yet switched the box off -- what does getinfo return ?
asciilifeform: ( if at any point an exception was shat , it'll be cached there )
mircea_popescu: i did turn off the node to be able to push out meaningful bdb item think about it.
asciilifeform: aite.
mircea_popescu: but before that it returned the plainest normalcy, 37 connected nodes etc.
mircea_popescu: no exception.
mircea_popescu: ie empty error string.
asciilifeform: ok;
asciilifeform: remains -- to see the log (was it ever offered 00000000000000000136 in an inv vector ? and, did it ever request it from anybody ; and lastly, did it ever receive . )
mircea_popescu: all of these'd have also made me notice it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform part of the problem is that "00000000000000000136" is not much of a unique id in thefirst place.
mircea_popescu: how much would you trust eleven bits ?
asciilifeform: it sure as fuck isn't . which is why it has to be massaged out from the log segment known to contain it.
asciilifeform: because yes, shit log.
asciilifeform: really all of the procrustean truncations gotta go.
asciilifeform: btw, for review,
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1364 and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1735 are the only times a trb node asks for blocks explicitly from peer
asciilifeform: at all other times, it passively sits with open mouth, waiting for blox to fall from the heavens
asciilifeform: (and grunting through the mempool)
mircea_popescu: yeah. and since you mention it, trb-i definitely needs a clarified push-or-pull model because the current system is the soul of unconsidered adhocery
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> ill complain to mod6 also. << im about 18 hours behind on the log, will catch up and will revisit tomorrow.
mircea_popescu: don't worry, it's not an emergency, just general point mod6
mod6: ok, np.. thanks for pointing it out. :]
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu , as you can probably tell, if node misses the window when $block was being actively thrown at it, then it has only these two knobs for attempting to get it
asciilifeform: one is to ask bringers of orphan blocks for our currentheight+1.
asciilifeform: the other is the idiocy where it asks, but only ~the first node it talked to when booting~ !
mircea_popescu: yes ; and that one should have activated EVERY TIME.
asciilifeform: astonishing that this crud ever worked at all !
mircea_popescu: of course... wait wait.
mircea_popescu: did the orphanage burner ruin trb 's chances of unwedging in this situation ?
asciilifeform: aaaaaha. not a typo.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not necessarily, orphanage may or may not have unwedged it, as it discards old orphans when new appear.
mircea_popescu: but in principle whenever given an orphan, old satoshi node would have asked for its height +1
mircea_popescu: is this no longer happening in trb ?
asciilifeform: it still happens, see the quoted src
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1358 << current mechanism.
mircea_popescu: yeah. then i can't conceive. it did complain thousands of times of orphans, which implicitly resulted in block being sought.
asciilifeform: and every time, it was refused.
asciilifeform: likely, by a prb.
mircea_popescu: what's this refusal supposed to be ?
asciilifeform: trb's response to an orphan is 'tell me mybestheight+1th block DAMNIT'
mircea_popescu: yes
asciilifeform: let's see if anyone answered . gotta see the log.
mircea_popescu: aite, ima go examine beauty in the flesh. will push the thing to web when it's done.
asciilifeform: laters then
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu et al , is it obvious how http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1364 works ? or do i need to explain
asciilifeform: (it's effectively recursive. when bastard comes in, we ask for its predecessor. which, if it is also a bastard to us, triggers same process. ad infinitum, until we get the thing we actually want, which is our next block )
asciilifeform: it is also why i did not give bastardry a ban score !
asciilifeform: this routine is inherited from tardoshi btw, i did not invent it.
asciilifeform: btw i am now nearly certain re what happened to mircea_popescu's box
asciilifeform: dollars to doughnuts, it lost connectivity for a week or two. at which point the necessary bastardry-recursion depth became longer than any of his node's peer's typical uptime.
asciilifeform: ( and with each new block mined, this depth is 1 deeper ! )
asciilifeform: note that ProcessBlock() only ever asks ~the bastard-supplying peer~ for the bastard's prevblock.
asciilifeform: it never asks anybody else !
trinque: how is being behind distinguished from a new node coming up?
asciilifeform: trinque: like this, http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1735
asciilifeform: tardoshi had a motherfucking SPECIAL CASE for 'i'm a new node'
trinque: ahaha
asciilifeform: and, notice, it asks first-chance-strangerfuck for the blocks-from-genesis.
trinque: of course it does
asciilifeform: this is also why mircea_popescu rebooting the node, will almost guarantee to bring it to life
asciilifeform: : the idiot specialcase -- will trigger.
asciilifeform: (whether succeeds will depend 100% on who the thing ends up connecting to on boot )
asciilifeform: tardoshi's block fetching mechanism is profoundly, inexperessibly retarded, and cannot be substantially changed without breaking protocol
asciilifeform: though mircea_popescu's wedge is preventable, what trb really ought to do is start sending http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1735 to all peers, starting with any 'wires' if present, whenever it goes for >1hr without a new block
asciilifeform: i'll add that 'week' is merely a guess, from my arse; perhaps a couple of hours is enough, under the right circumstances ( idiot peers + sufficiently many blocks made in interval )
asciilifeform: at this point i will recommend that -- when everyone has satisfied himself that 'wires' work -- every trb node oughta be wired to at least 1 known trb node
asciilifeform: and yeah this ought not to be necessary. but i suspect that it -- is.
asciilifeform: the network has rotten to the point, where it probably is.
asciilifeform: and i'll repeat, tardoshi offered NO way to request blocks BY HEIGHT !!
asciilifeform: none!
asciilifeform: to request a block from a peer, you have to somehow find out its header hash
asciilifeform: which you are expected to do (because he was dropped as a child) using either a bastard's header, recursively as discussed earlier, or 'getheaders'
asciilifeform: clinch is : getheaders ALSO WANTS A HASH as starting point ! ALSO won't work by height !!
asciilifeform: whipping to death, and throwing to dogs, is all things considered a merciful reward for someone who designs a system like this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://qntra.net/debug.wow.txt.gz
mircea_popescu: hash presently.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: meanwhile i solved it with anal telekinesis !!111
mircea_popescu: i didn't know males could do that.
mircea_popescu: 2b24b2fcfb4ff6cdf7fa845d613d340baec866f285f9a24fb5bd2c8ffd740802ebfd51999af92c68ec117e45a115f85ac0c95bae612a99b7a2f095e66d5f6b02
asciilifeform: (82.7 MB/s) - “debug.wow.txt.gz” saved << aaah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no it's clear how it should work ; whether it ends up working that way is open, but hey.
asciilifeform: lessee if mircea_popescu's l0g is consistent with above
mircea_popescu: box lost connectivity for A WEEK ? my dear alf.
asciilifeform: readwholethingplox
asciilifeform: checksum pass btw.
mircea_popescu: i do not believe node lost connectivity for as long as five total minutes, let alone straight minutes ; this however is a very iffy point to prove because hey, ~connectivity~.
asciilifeform: 'lost connectivity' can mean blackhole, for this purpose.
mircea_popescu: very technically ; i don't think it too likely.
asciilifeform waits for gunzip
mircea_popescu: anyway, the problem with "request block by height" is that the block height is an ambiguous identifier of actual blocks.
mircea_popescu: this is hwat a reorg does.
asciilifeform: this is entirely tru
asciilifeform: i did not say that it ought to request by height at all times.
mircea_popescu: now, asking for "friend's notion of five a clock" is not entirely without merit
asciilifeform: but ought to be able to ~sometimes~
mircea_popescu: but yes.
asciilifeform: (if you ~only~ requested by height, anyone could put you on 1way voyage to pluto and you'll stay there.)
mircea_popescu: now then ; the reason i even looked at this node is that i was going through a list of potential candidates to put in the new asciilifeform ssh thing.
mircea_popescu: if you're around tomorrow mebbe we do that ?
mircea_popescu: and otherwise, i bid all a very good thight
mircea_popescu: i mean night.
asciilifeform: i'll be around for most of tomorrow yea
asciilifeform: also the recipe is pretty simple. gpg over the pubkey and you're golden.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-03#1621563 << i believe it's because it's called asciilifeform_and_now_we_have_block_dumper_corrected. (http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=dump)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-03 19:03 asciilifeform: see, http://btcbase.org/patches , where 'dumpblock' is
asciilifeform: phf: he uploaded entire blk0036 in the end, see l0gz
phf: i'm mostly reacting to "things missing" bit. i otherwise would like to remain ignorant of going ons in the world, until i'm forced into interracting with it again in a few days
phf: http://68.media.tumblr.com/01a7c7c27d6ad3208d14a9ea66e9321f/tumblr_om7b58YWTw1uu4f9zo1_500.jpg
phf: ^
asciilifeform: phf: nothing is missing, you can go back to meditation cave if you like
asciilifeform: phf: most of today is re mircea_popescu showed a trb node that's been wedged, in a peculiar way, since july. but the l0g will still be there later.
phf nods
phf: that's what i figured
phf: also i can't really go back to the cave. it's the time to buy gifts, and pack shit up.
asciilifeform: aaa india
phf: ##### #### #### ####
phf: hmm
phf: Ñинди ÑÑÑи бÑай бÑай
phf: ffs.
asciilifeform: бНОПНЯ ВХРЮК
phf: what i'm trying to say is "hindi rusi bhai bhai" :p
phf: in related lulz i got a lot of "soviet union was a good thing" from conversations with indians. a lot of older indians seem to hate americans and miss the good old "bhai bhai" days
asciilifeform: i have nfi in what shithole today anyone likes the americans.
ben_vulpes: what is this bhai bhai?
phf: it means indians and russians are brothers, and is a slogan for soviet/indian friendship from about 50s to 80s
phf: kruschev said it in bangalore during some '55 visit
phf: bhai is basically hindi for brother, which is bhratri (bratr) in sanskrit, which is same word as russian "brat", english brother, etc.
phf: back then su was pumping resources into india, but according to su economic strategy that mostly resulted in factories and hospitals. now americans are pumping resources, but that mostly results in moar mcdonalds. so naturally men with long memories are testy
ben_vulpes: interesting etymology
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1277.99, vol: 7635.53514698 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1259.994, vol: 5911.25174 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1284.1, vol: 21605.29528026 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1215.825, vol: 10177.56470000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1278.01, vol: 2487.65187048 | Volume-weighted last average: 1265.29565915
mircea_popescu: phf unsurprising ; indian industrialization happened mostly under the soviet... "influence".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here, have some lulz:
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are 1955176872 lines of debug.log between block 419220 and 419221
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: ~that~ was where the thing sat stalled, for eons
mircea_popescu: and yet.
asciilifeform: but interestingly, quite recently was able to reconnect to the 'first connected to' node, the idiocy i described yesterday, and sync just a bit.
mircea_popescu: so the working theory being, that a) node spent ~weeks trying to digest block 419221 and failing ; b) eventually managed but by then not able to obtain the next one because of reasons discussed except ; c) recently it managed to briefly connect to the magic node it would talk to and get another 100 or so blocks ?
asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/wtf/1000000_since_419373.txt
asciilifeform: ^ for convenient reading
asciilifeform: 'recently' is a poor choice of word, i cannot say exactly when.
asciilifeform: can only estimate, like archaeologist using carbon14 decay..
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: and if you grep this for 00000000000000000136 , guess what
mircea_popescu: it's about my own conclusion. i'd say it belies the need for some fixing.
asciilifeform: you see exactly what i described -- your node asks, and asks, and asks peers for it
asciilifeform: never gets.
mircea_popescu: yep
asciilifeform: because - i dare say - they ain't nodes
mircea_popescu: very miserable design for a "peer to peer" network.
asciilifeform: they're pseudos
asciilifeform: who don't ~have~ it.
mircea_popescu: this is entirely possible.
asciilifeform: hence 'wires' etc.
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu your node spent ages trying to ~get hold of~ 419221. not to digest it.
mircea_popescu: mmm
asciilifeform: digested, as per the log, more or less immediately
asciilifeform: meanwhile, völkischer beobachter entertains, https://archive.is/XajR5 << 'President Trump on Saturday angrily accused former president Barack Obama of orchestrating a “Nixon/Watergate” plot to tap the phones at his Trump Tower headquarters last fall in the run-up to the election .. no evidence ...'
asciilifeform: (i don't recall seeing a 'ru mega-hack accusation ... no evidence' in the beobachter.
asciilifeform: evidence, evidently, is something to demand of mr.t only )
asciilifeform: !!up mrottenkolber
deedbot: mrottenkolber voiced for 30 minutes.
mrottenkolber: wait trilema is a person
mrottenkolber: this feels awkwardly like a person cult now
mrottenkolber: so I'm curious, where do you guys stand politically?
mrottenkolber: Like, self perception
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: could try reading the logs
mrottenkolber: right, I'm a dick
asciilifeform: in pygmystan, they have not invented writing yet, gotta retell same yarn again and again and... again. we -- have writing.
mrottenkolber: I know, I know, people are not REPLs
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-04#1621939 << I am not sure this would happen, you would still have to verify the blocks - unless you have absolutely no connection to anybody else, in which case you would be equally stuck under current conditions☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-04 01:53 asciilifeform: (if you ~only~ requested by height, anyone could put you on 1way voyage to pluto and you'll stay there.)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D20C2568A16A9E767370BA58A20ED6B2AE063D889E43A436B94BC613FC328C47 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1586...2833 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (backoffice.c4h.com. DE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D20C2568A16A9E767370BA58A20ED6B2AE063D889E43A436B94BC613FC328C47 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1586...9937 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (backoffice.c4h.com. DE)
ben_vulpes: hey hey! i've got a node wired up to dulap.
ben_vulpes: neat street, stan my man
asciilifeform: congrats to ben_vulpes , the first d00d to request , and be issued, a wire to dulap.
asciilifeform: ( ideally this won't end up a star topology around this 1 poor box !! )
ben_vulpes: i don't have a master in place yet, but i am also willing to extend wire peerings to my l1
ben_vulpes: it is what, ten minutes of work to set the master up
asciilifeform: imho the Right Thing is, each node is wired to a handful of serious people.
asciilifeform: and if you have a trb built with wires, it is 10min work (on client end), 10 seconds on the master.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: congrats to you, you did all the hard work. tank brigade goes nowhere without the engineers laying down bridgework
asciilifeform: now it is also important to understand the limitations of the current wires patch. there is ~no~ prioritization .
asciilifeform: the one thing you are guaranteed is that your node won't perma-drop the wire.
asciilifeform: in fact if the peer on the other end of the wire goes down, you will get multi-MB whine in your log.
asciilifeform: (i was unable to think of any reasonable way around this. if you silence the whine, you will never know that your wire peers dropped.)
asciilifeform: there is no prioritization because of trb's fundamentally idiotic uniprocess socket handling. ( if there is no preemption - there can be no meaningful prioritization ! )
ben_vulpes: off the cuff, would an exponential whine backoff suck?
asciilifeform: yes, because you go on a month's voyage and come back to 0 clue.
asciilifeform: what the thing really needs is 'indicator lamp', i.e. a field in getstatus that shows last event that happened on each wire.
ben_vulpes: ah
asciilifeform: but i will leave this to other folx for nao
ben_vulpes: well come now, "it didn't connect at minute 1, 2, 4..."
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as is screamingly obvious from the earlier thread with mircea_popescu -- the debug log is terrifyingly inadequate for ~any serious work
mircea_popescu: so it is.
asciilifeform: not only timestamp is missing, also
asciilifeform: and not only truncated (why?!) txid
asciilifeform: but also, we never learn what came in , and from where
ben_vulpes: hash and height for that matter
asciilifeform: or what was sent, and to whom
asciilifeform: and in response to what.
asciilifeform: can ~infer~ , ~sometimes~, yes.
asciilifeform: but this is a laugh.
ben_vulpes: aight, aight, i forget that i'm the only person using svlogd
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's that do
ben_vulpes: this is a desirable situation? that trb logging include timestamps and shit into log that which came from whom?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: rotation and timestamping.
asciilifeform: these are the smallest, by far, problems
asciilifeform: and yes, if you want to debug, you gotta log. don't think the enemy doesn't log your plaintext.
asciilifeform: (and with , i picture, much better detail than stock trb's log )
asciilifeform: also imho mempool events oughta reside in separate log.
asciilifeform: incidentally, ben_vulpes , if mircea_popescu had ANY kind of reasonable log rotation in his node -- i would have had nothing to work with !
asciilifeform: this is why i don't think much of auto-rotation
mircea_popescu: you are not alone.
asciilifeform: rotate -- manually. when you're satisfied that there is no further use for the multi-GB log
ben_vulpes: aye aye
asciilifeform: whereas if your node is launched to pluto, and you know that you will never read the log -- turn it off !
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, recall our ancient discussion re "buried nodes" and my reluctance ? dja understand HOW MANY OF THESE THERE ARE, silent unknown failure modes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i have nfi how many
asciilifeform: incidentally there is ye olde disk-is-full. and in future trbi with fixedwidth tx and block, node knows ~exactly when disk will fill, years in advance.
asciilifeform: you bolt in a disk, and know 'this many TB -- this many year'
asciilifeform: in classical trb, you have the 1MB/10min worstcase. but tightbounds are better.
ben_vulpes: subject of trbi, did i miss a way for a parent to cancel a cask ask shy of fibbing?
asciilifeform: (in trb, you also, recall, have the tx index db, and literally nobody knows what the dynamics are there)
ben_vulpes: roll i mean, not ask
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you didn't miss, there is no such thing
asciilifeform: a promise that can be 'takebacked' any time, is no promise at all
asciilifeform: it is either kept -- or not kept !
asciilifeform: once made.
ben_vulpes: yes, you walked the promises side of the problem exhaustively.
asciilifeform: when you roll a cask, you are saying, ultimately -- to a tx maker -- 'there is a place in a block reserved for your tx, fire away'
ben_vulpes: and there's no way to get transactions into blocks absent casks, right?
asciilifeform: not for anyone other than the miner
asciilifeform: (miner can, if he likes, connect mouth hose directly to own arse, for so long as his blocks validate, he will simply forgo the fees then )
asciilifeform: note that the miner is theoretically free to distribute some, or all of, the space in his block in any other way -- e.g. via dartboard, or sheep entrails, etc
asciilifeform: the cask scheme is simply a way to impedance-match a high tx pressure to finite space in blocks, with maximally (afaik) frictionless market.
asciilifeform: where you avoid the situation from mircea_popescu's old essay where 'in broken market, you give a bag of maybe-money in return for a bag of perhaps-potatoes' and everybody goes home to learn how cheated he was
asciilifeform: key is to abolish the maybe-money in favour of money, and throw out the perhaps-potatoes in favour of definitively and immediately palpable potatoes.
asciilifeform: and yes, this only works with nodes that have cryptographically hard identity. and not with the syphilitic orgy familiar to classical trb users.
ben_vulpes: is the cask system design necessarily exclusive of a mempool design?
asciilifeform: it is specifically a replacement for mempool
asciilifeform: which is a dumbfoundingly idiotic concept: it is promisetronic IN BOTH DIRECTIONS
asciilifeform: in the direction of tx-author -> mempool : 'here, i'ma take a dump, and YOU verify and store it'
asciilifeform: from mempool operator to tx author -> 'oh here, take your dump, i PROMISE!111 i won't just throw it into the toilet'
asciilifeform: and in no case does it offer a means of marketing one's path-to-miner
asciilifeform: aside from ad-hoc wires-for-pay and other orc duct tape
asciilifeform: (the logical end of ~that~, is visa and swift.)
ben_vulpes: well there is the protocolitic commitment that if the transaction is included, the miner will receive a fee, but that's it.
asciilifeform: none of the ~other~ people who made the show happen, get anything at all.
asciilifeform: in the classical system.
asciilifeform: all they get is the bill, for geometrically-expanding disk footprint and cpu burn.
ben_vulpes: yes, if you want to drive, must have a car.
asciilifeform: eventually this turns into 'if you want to fly, must have a plane'
asciilifeform: or, worse, 'if you want to drive, must lay own asphalt'
ben_vulpes: one of the things i took away from the past week of mega logs is that blockchains may have finite lifespans
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: absolutely ~everything~ has finite lifespan.
ben_vulpes: myup.
ben_vulpes: hey at least we get an interesting pricing exercise out of it!
asciilifeform: incidentally the nonsense where 'hey, node operators get paid in Being Able To Use Bitcoin' needs to be put to rest properly
asciilifeform: because Being Able To Use Bitcoin might pay the bills, for node operator today (or may not, some folx are stuck operating a node for other reasons, say, trb dev work) but enemy can drive up the cost substantially , with no guarantee of an increase on the other side of the balance to match it
asciilifeform: and in fact the idiot variable-length tx scheme, with the attendant db, guarantees geometric growth in the cost
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-04#1622003 << just one more of the libertard words. "evidence", "science" "consensus" "Rape" etcetera.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-04 16:13 asciilifeform: evidence, evidently, is something to demand of mr.t only )
asciilifeform: ( note that nobody guarantees you, node keeper, any kind of geometric growth in your income from Being Able To Use Bitcoin, even in happy dreams when you sleep )
asciilifeform: result is a convergence to visa.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-04#1622031 << yes but this is also the major drag on wires adoption. they buy, little.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-04 17:53 asciilifeform: there is no prioritization because of trb's fundamentally idiotic uniprocess socket handling. ( if there is no preemption - there can be no meaningful prioritization ! )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they buy 1 thing -- a guaranteed avoidance of the situation of mircea_popescu's node
mircea_popescu: it's not clear the node'd have asked the wire.
asciilifeform: where 'prb, prb everywhere, and not a drop to drink'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it asked, and asked, and asked, as far as i can tell, a great many peers
asciilifeform: this, from the posted log.
asciilifeform: nobody gave a useful answer.
asciilifeform: nobody.
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu: should have permabanned them, is my current thinking.
mircea_popescu: it seems to me, that if i make a request of anyone and anything - a woman, a shopkeeper, a dog, a bee, and that request is not satisfied,
mircea_popescu: i crush the bee, shopkeeper, woman, etcetera.
asciilifeform: i tried permabanning everybody-symptomatic-of-prbism
mircea_popescu: what's so special about bitcoin nodes ?
asciilifeform: didn't end well
mircea_popescu: you fail to answer, you get bombed. hurray.
asciilifeform: vermin-zapping worx best as part of a balanced died, of making friends with non-vermin.
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: *diet
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-04#1622055 << the discussion of separating logs happened when we last talked of logs and how to improve them, cca 2015ish.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-04 18:02 asciilifeform: also imho mempool events oughta reside in separate log.
asciilifeform: aha! i tried to dig up the thread, so far failed
asciilifeform: but iirc there was indeed a thread, where mircea_popescu suggested multiple log streams, that can be separated or combined as necessary
mircea_popescu: yes
mircea_popescu: like you know, among sane people.
asciilifeform: no one will ever confuse anything we might recognize as trb for any artifact from the distant Planet of Sane People.
asciilifeform: ( though i have never, myself, been to this paradise, and the only artifact i know of from it is via pure rumour, the marvelous orichalcum-powered golden dildoes )
mircea_popescu: kek
mircea_popescu: gold makes a terrible dildo, incidentally. silver's better, somewhat.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1257.17, vol: 5085.29209634 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1253.0, vol: 4215.02807 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1265.3, vol: 16820.37490705 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1193.35145, vol: 7106.06290000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1260.001, vol: 1520.70750942 | Volume-weighted last average: 1247.67231371
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/bitcoin-network-mining-difficulty-up-yet-again-to-460769358090-71423340-for-new-all-time-high/ << Qntra - Bitcoin Network Mining Difficulty Up Yet Again To 460769358090.71423340 For New All Time High
ben_vulpes: in other rallies and gendered binary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKdi7MN7lCQ
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/03/04/the-diversification-scam-is-spreading-you-thin-and-stealing-your-money-so-knock-it-off-already/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The “diversification” scam is spreading you thin and stealing your money. So knock it off already.
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=6821
ben_vulpes: > find two or three prospective all stars
ben_vulpes: lolk
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski missed vanguard takeover of the world? ria's successfully still hawk high load funds in the northeast?
pete_dushenski: two or three is better than 20 or 30 for fee management
pete_dushenski: and vanguard is mentioned. nfi what ria is
pete_dushenski: registered investment advisor mabbe ?
ben_vulpes: mhm, part of the sro song and dance they do down here
pete_dushenski: also north of montana isn't really northeast yknow
ben_vulpes: ah right
pete_dushenski: anyways, i have no love lost for etfs even if their fees are lower than mutual funds of yesteryear. they're still a hodgepodge of thinly distributed garbage. i don't know anyone who seriously reaps a return from them.
pete_dushenski: i like to remind anyone tempted to buy etfs "for safety" that cash outperformed every vanguard offering in 2007. lest we forget that ~half~ of the returns of us stocks during the last fifty years were dictated by only ten days.
ben_vulpes: didn't cash outperform everything in 2007?
pete_dushenski: you could probably find a few exceptions other than cash but not many
ben_vulpes: i have no idea what you're getting at by pointing out that cash outperformed everything (incl. vg index funds, duh?) plus that index gains occur on a limited number of days
ben_vulpes: gains in any asset.
asciilifeform: lol fiatola 'savings'
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: simply the (perhaps obvious to log readers) point that diversification isn't a panacea particularly in the manner used by 'advisors', which is to say, within sectors and within asset classes rather than between them
ben_vulpes: mhm
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: your airquotes just burst a million middle class bubbles
ben_vulpes: hey, do sector rotation next!
pete_dushenski: i thought you had the rotation covered ?
pete_dushenski: and timestamping!
pete_dushenski: :)
ben_vulpes: eh, won't be at this place long enough to make proper rotation worthwhile
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03247/assets_3247927b.jpg
pete_dushenski: !~google gilts
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: Gilts Definition | Investopedia: <http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gilts.asp>; About Gilts - UK Debt Management Office: <http://www.dmo.gov.uk/index.aspx%3Fpage%3Dgilts/about_gilts>; Gilt -edged securities - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilt-edged_securities>
pete_dushenski: uk bonds eh
ben_vulpes: lol, n. am equities did so badly they didn't even make the screenshot?
ben_vulpes: and where's cash in the 2007 col
pete_dushenski: mia
ben_vulpes: poor cash
ben_vulpes: rip cash
pete_dushenski: you'd be better off investing in old timepieces with overkilled documentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0mRLcGbU8
ben_vulpes: eh i'd rather invest in dirt
pete_dushenski: not quite as portable. jew's gotta stay on his toes imo.
ben_vulpes: if invest time as well, returns are denominate in knowledge.
ben_vulpes: denominated*
pete_dushenski: always a +ev strategy that.
pete_dushenski: bbl. someone's nap ended too soon
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: siempre
trinque: hm, deedbot still trapped on a netsplit eh?
mircea_popescu: seems so.
asciilifeform: 'A spokesman for Barack Obama on Saturday rejected claims by U.S. President Donald Trump that the then-president had wiretapped Trump in October during the late stages of the presidential election campaign, saying it was "simply false."'
asciilifeform: lel, 'i am not a crook!1111' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: did he offer proof ?
asciilifeform: '"Neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any U.S. citizen. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false," Obama spokesman Kevin Lewis said in a statement.' << 'proof'
mircea_popescu: ahahaha WHAT
mircea_popescu: they assassinated us citizens. wtf, what planet is this ?
asciilifeform: jesuitistically, it's tru! obummer does not order surveillance, pocket judge orders.
asciilifeform: formally.
mircea_popescu: "Now, both The New York Times and The Washington Post confirm that the Obama White House has now expressly authorized the CIA to kill al-Alwaki no matter where he is found, no matter his distance from a battlefield."
mircea_popescu: today in things that never happened.
mircea_popescu: where is my fucking razor for the internet ?
mircea_popescu: "2010 too far away for ameritards hurr"
asciilifeform: '"No president can order a wiretap. Those restrictions were put in place to protect citizens from people like you," Rhodes wrote on Twitter.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mircea_popescu: it's vaguely amusing, just how idiotic the monkeys are.
asciilifeform: it gets better:
asciilifeform: 'Under U.S. law, a federal court would have to have found probable cause that the target of the surveillance is an "agent of a foreign power" in order to approve a warrant authorizing electronic surveillance of Trump Tower.' << this is the 'proof' apparently : 'if obummer did it, it Proves Ru Stooge'
mircea_popescu: lmao ok.
mircea_popescu: they need a new book.
asciilifeform: 'The 8-year-old daughter of Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical cleric and U.S. citizen who was killed in a drone strike in 2011, was reportedly among those killed Sunday during a raid in Yemen. The Guardian reported that Nawar al-Awlaki was killed after suffering a gunshot wound to the neck.' -- feb.2
mircea_popescu: aww.
asciilifeform: kick-the-dog.
asciilifeform: dog gotta stay freshly kicked at all times.
mircea_popescu: the audacity, you know. criminal head of terrorist state, and they dare even speak.
mircea_popescu: "oh, we were justified". bitch, the fucking towelheads say the exact same thing. you're all justified.
asciilifeform: recall ghadaffi's kid also.
asciilifeform: (iirc also 8 y.o. gurl, nailed on direct orders from reagan)
mircea_popescu: she was us citizen ?
asciilifeform: mno, but afaik the earlier one also not
asciilifeform: only dog-kick.
mircea_popescu: the daughter of us citizen wasn't us citizen ? how ?
asciilifeform: actually i have nfi if d00d was ever formally drummed out of usa citizenship
mircea_popescu: this isn't possible.
asciilifeform: it is possible on paper
asciilifeform: i got passport right here, pg. 7 says: 'under some circumstances, you may lose your u.s. citizenship...'
asciilifeform: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481 << here we go.
mircea_popescu: that;s a novel notion.
asciilifeform: now for some peculiar reason there are almost no cases.
mircea_popescu: the theory being that "the dude gve it up by pariticpating in something we call a military of something we won't call a state" ?
mircea_popescu: theory has no legal legs to stand on.
mircea_popescu: until and unless us recognizes the state of taliban-isis, the guy'\s not covered.
asciilifeform: probably why there appears to be 0 public record of any proceedings to revoke his citizenship
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, lack of citizenship dun seem to keep, e.g., noriega, from sitting in american jail )
asciilifeform: notice how it takes, what, six figs usd in dubious legal fees, to cancel u.s. citizenship voluntarily. and for no prosecution of anyone, ever, was it cancelled, quite the opposite, usg will happily extend honourary 'citizenship' to ~anyone, for $ 0 , and permanent room in the finest prison with it.
asciilifeform: citizen is easier, rather than harder, to hunt, various orgs that do business in usa are coaxed into proactively keeping tabs on'em; this was covered iirc in a few old mircea_popescu pieces re bank
mircea_popescu: i dunno what we're discussing now, but anyway. original point was re bahamas being a murderer liar etc.
asciilifeform: i'll point out that mr.t signed off on the 8yo corpse
asciilifeform: rather than obummer
asciilifeform: (who signed off on the first two, al-alwaki and his son)
asciilifeform: incidentally there is supposed to have been a mr.t ralley in dc today, but i found 0 mention of it on the net, 0 photos, etc.
asciilifeform: very very helpful google.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the fact that both trump and obama grabbed pussy is a detriment to the monkey.
mircea_popescu: trump said he was gonna.