a111: Logged on 2016-07-22 23:38 BingoBoingo: theft of course referring to the forking which was a theft from legitimate DAO contract DAO'er
mod6: 1`120 of s.mg traded
mod6: maybe i'll make a new one?
mod6: i've got a few irons in the fire currently... but let's revisit this in a week or two after I get some more work done with the build stuff.
mod6: yeah, bitotter stuff is still laying around.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-22#1508816 << only now it dawns on me you prolly meant the fingretrapped chick ? how the fuck are you going to judge her performance without the cock stuffing ? it's like proposing to buy a car in a closed bag wtf. you do go for drive tests neh ? same thing here, the fucking point is that random derp can't fingertrap worth a shit.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-22 15:07 asciilifeform: i dun even grasp the appeal of pr0n with cocks in it.
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.125 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.125 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.231.125@mkj.lt>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchla ☟︎ deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.228.160 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.228.160 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.228.160@mkj.lt>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchla deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.228.159 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.228.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.228.159@mkj.lt>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchla ☟︎ deedbot: interviewee voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: kk ... so ... the dao. You believe the "dao attacker' has a legal claim here?
interviewee: when determining whether any party has the ability to invoke the power of the legal system to determine a dispute, you must first determine the party's respective legal rights
interviewee: that is to say, who has what rights/powers/responsibilities/burdens
interviewee: (caveat- i do US law only, because i don't know any other legal system)
interviewee: there are 3 or 4 analytic inflection points here
interviewee: 1. is there any contract relationship and if so, what does it say everyone can and can't do?
interviewee: 2. if there is no contract relationship, is there any conventionally recognized "ownership" right to any of the ETH/DAOt out there
shinohai: hasn't it been established that the dao *didn't specifically prohibit this behavior* ?
interviewee: 3. if no contract and no "ownership" then can anyone get anything usign the legal system?
interviewee: 4. if we accept the law is code premise, then is what the exploiter did actually a violation of any others' rights?
interviewee: as to your q, TheDao was evidently premised as code = law
interviewee: however, flying in the face of that declaration were layer after layer of lawyer language
interviewee: you have the comments in the actual .sol files as to warranties and incorp. of the gnu license
shinohai: mircea_popescu, et all any questions for possible qntra?
interviewee: you have the readme.md file in the git for the slockit code that had all sorts of interesting/strange declarations/disclaimers
interviewee: then you have the conflicting mess of declarations in the daohub.org page
interviewee: whcih of course was ambigiuous as to its ownership for a while- so it was unclear what "disclaimers" actually came from "TheDao"
interviewee: and who was authorized to discllaim for TheDao
interviewee: complicating this of course is the fact that an investor/DaoT holder could actually buy in without seeing any of those disclaimers b/c the buy in was actually just a ETH transaction
interviewee: however, none fo this is legal advice- just my persaonl analysis
shinohai: i was just curious as to the legal standing of the dao from US perspective
interviewee: so, it's unclear if any of those disclaimer actually mean anythign or nothing
mircea_popescu: the actual legal standing is not established. it's one of those things that are a huge pile of nonsense a judge will have to cut through.
☟︎ interviewee: there are repeated express disclaimers of contract rights/creation
mircea_popescu: financially, it's toxic, for this reason. nobody sane will get involved in it, which is the point.
interviewee: a judge will probably infer some contractual relationships
mircea_popescu: us judges are notorious for poor judgement and arbitrary rulings.
interviewee: i enjoyed your blog that you pushed out right after the attack.
mircea_popescu: interviewee the question to you is still, concretely, which lawyer are you ? otherwise the situation here is indistinguishable from "bored redditor clicked a webirc link"
interviewee: US Judges do a really good job considering the system they have to deal with
mircea_popescu: do consider making a pgp key and registering it with deedbot
mircea_popescu: next q being, are you actually trying to position yourself to litigate this, or just blogging about it ?
interviewee: then entirely plausible that permitted action provides title
interviewee: and then the unilateral fork deprives rights.
mircea_popescu: standing only comes at proceeding time. litigation starts with filing.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be the first time someone files something that's then dismissed.
interviewee: getting service and past a motion to dismiss is what i'm talkign about
interviewee: then you open the box and deal with the endless array of new law to make
interviewee: how do you coerce a blockchain with a court order?
mircea_popescu: motion to dismiss you worry about after they reject early settlement. if they do.
mircea_popescu: interviewee you can't be this naive. "a blockchain" ? you sue mit, the hedge fund.
interviewee: so you want cash damages not to reverse the fork
mircea_popescu: no, actually, im in the business of destroying the us.
interviewee: so is about 1/2 of the voters in the US so you're in good company
mircea_popescu: also, there's exactly no difference between cash damages and reversing the fork.
mircea_popescu: ie, even if the judge orders "to reverse the fork" the only practical implementation is a liquidation in cash.
interviewee: from my analysis of the toolbox available to lawyers, it is much easier to get a judgment and levy on conventional assets than to try to compel actors to change code.
mircea_popescu: no argument there. all i'm saying is that even if the latter were ordered, it'd still not work.
interviewee: the collateral damage tot he platform caused by a public suit would be breathtaking
mircea_popescu: shinohai this means that the derps are in the worst case of all : all the damage of their "hard fork" is now baked in but nevertheless none of the things they hoped it would achieve were achieved.
interviewee: so yes, i think there's a credible arguement that the exploiter just lost rights.
shinohai: it's already dead, but this is poking it with stick
mircea_popescu: ~anyone holding as much as a farthing "worth" of ethereum presently has overhead the possible claim here discussed, with its treble damages and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: and if mit doesn't distance itself from it post haste, it's definitely open to a tort, which... you know, judge awards a billion, of which 0.1% mit's responsibility. so they have TO PAY THRE WHOLE BILLION
BingoBoingo: One can not decathalon to Olympus without jumping over some hurdles.
interviewee: you have to remember the gatekeeper here is likely to be a +60yr old conservative christian white male
interviewee: respectfully you get to the jury at the end and there's a lot to do before the end.
mircea_popescu: anyway, no way mit senior counsel ever allows this anywhere near a trial ; which is why it's fine settle fodder if you're looking to feed yourself.
interviewee: ok, perhaps i am as naive as shinohai suggests, but where's the claim against MIT?
interviewee: did they write any part of the slock.it code or solidity or ethereum?
mircea_popescu: tortious interference. they provided the office space where the decision was made and allegedly "forced the participants to decide"
mircea_popescu: the allegation has to be established by trier of fact, ie, jury.
interviewee: what's the factual basis for the "forced the participants to decide"?
mircea_popescu: not going to. the factual matter will have to be established somehow. you allege they did, they allege they didn't. so it's a dispute.
interviewee: Rule 11- can't just sling shit and hope for the best
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, ethereum happened in the mit media lab.
shinohai: of course they didn't, fork chain so this never, ever happened
interviewee: if you sign a contract for delivery of 50 tons of charcoal while sitting at the restaurant and the other party breaches 2 years later, you think you have a claim against the restaurant?
mircea_popescu: but this is not a restaurant. if you decide to break into the democratic convention while sitting in nixon's white house, guess what.
BingoBoingo: If the restaurant offered grant money to people selling charcoal chain mebbe?
interviewee: there are lots of lawyers who would "just" want to file this to make their name
interviewee: a serious claim by a serious party with actual rights and i'm 100000000% down
mircea_popescu: this is one of those million-dollar-opportunities, which i hear are getting rarer and rarer in an ever more crowded lawyer market.
interviewee: they are out there but they are increasingly being regulated/legislated out
mircea_popescu: anyway. there is no such thing as "actual rights" here, nor even as much as title. nobody has title to any cryptocurrency.
interviewee: you have contingent claims and claims of control.
interviewee: there is no govt actor using police power to enforce like the fancy colored linen i used to buy my coffee this am
interviewee: you can sue to enforce any part of yoru property rights
interviewee: in conversion, you don't lose legal title, just posessory
mircea_popescu: sure, i don't mean "title to sue" i mean title as in property
interviewee: if you stole my stradivarious, i'd not lose title just posession
interviewee: even if you want to call it "right to control"
interviewee: so, i gave a talk about this at NYU 3 days before the exploiter did his/her/their thing
interviewee: and presented a draft academic paper on it
interviewee: and guessed right about many of the things that would or would not happen
interviewee: including that there would be efforts to roll back
interviewee: that would show that ETH is run by a cabal
interviewee: and everyone was told they'd get what they get from hitting buttons
deedbot: interviewee voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: oh, right, there's also a whole pile of claims re insider trading, manipulation etc over the "price" of "ethereum" at kraken and poloniex.
☟︎ interviewee: remember- you're getting past your gatekeeper
mircea_popescu: if they paid attention when they should have they'd have busted pirate when i said to in 2012, not waited for years on the case.
mircea_popescu: their mistaken politico hope that "it'll end bitcoin" will require blood to wash off.
interviewee: so, they just have to live with their new reality.
mircea_popescu: heh. bitcoin is going to the following place : i'll be electing the us president long after nobody remembers what an us dollar used to be.
interviewee: i'm trying to continue to learn, watch the fireworks, and help out where i can.
interviewee: hey! i'm a lawyer who used to be tech. go easy on me.
interviewee: i'm doing some more of the conferences to try to teach peopel to not make dao messes again
mircea_popescu is curious what mr hinkes will think once he gets through the logs to the bitbet receivership process.
interviewee: and trying to work on some materials that will be used to guide businesses that want to play with smart contracts to keep them from blowing their own heads off DaoStyle
interviewee: blog is in process. my stuff is blasted across various sites
interviewee: you'll probably agree with some of my stuff, which is cool. you'll probably disagree with some of my stuff which is cool too
mircea_popescu: anyway - since crypto governance interests you : bitbet was a reasonably productive bitcoin crop that split up over disputes inside management, was declared insolvent, had syndic appointed, was liquidated and the whole process was closed. it was a) an ad-hoc process and b) done within 6 weeks.
shinohai: all without the benefit of flaming tires in a shitpit.
interviewee: so the speed in whcih you can liquidate varies based on a number of factors
interviewee: if you have cooperative parties, can go smooth and fast and cheap
interviewee: if you have a party fighting (like one i am involved with atm) then its a mess
interviewee: we're on day 4 of evidentiary hearings on a motion to dissolve
interviewee: again, divorce can be a cheap one day affair or an attenuated mess
interviewee: anyway, i've rep'd receivers tht took over 9 digit scams
mircea_popescu: what a crazy world, where idiots have billions to give to scammers.
mircea_popescu: guy was pretty epic, in fairness. teh roger stone quotes, nov vs july 2009 totally make the pie.
interviewee: Kimmy is selling cars at a lexus dealer now.
interviewee: shit. i guess i'm not on their xmas card list.
interviewee: shinohai, do you have any questions for me?
shinohai: actually no, you summed up everything i wanted to know pretty well.
shinohai: but i thank you for stopping in, this is a very interesting study
shinohai: I was curious what legal perspective in US was, thought it might end up as a Qntra
interviewee: well, i'm around and happy to join you gents/ladies if other similar issues crop up, so Shinohai, don't be shy if you want to bend my ear.
shinohai: thanks! same here, consider bringing a gpg key to deedbot
shinohai: im sure this dao brouhaha will bring lulz for years to come
interviewee: getting opps to go speak is good for visibility
interviewee: and as long as people are going to play with these platforms, they might as well not shit it up like the Dao.
shinohai: Good to see people that understand what utter shit these platforms are though.
mircea_popescu: you should have seen the 2010-2011 interations of pointless&witless in action
shinohai: its like some sort of ponzi kyklos
interviewee: my boys with Bitcoin Uncensored just did a podcast with some VC guy who was remarkably honest in saying he doesnt know what a Blockchain is and just shills them b/c investors were told to buy them.
shinohai: What color do you want that blockchain?
interviewee: i am probably unpopular but i put somethign like this out there once and caught some shit for it
shinohai: someone has to stand up for immutability
hanbot gets halfway through mircea_popescu's latest article, still has no cloo
hanbot: who the fuck is fred wilson?!
hanbot: ...somebody teach me something quick so i can overwrite that
phf: "The Women’s Entrepreneurs Festival"
phf: "while I work hard, I also play hard."
phf: "My husband is my best friend. When I take off all of these “hats”, my most important job is being a mom. We have three kids who are terrific people."
mircea_popescu: hey, better a delusional "entrepreneur" than a common wino. housewife dun got so many options.
phf: i'd be envious, but after all the other argentina reports, i don't trust that experience to be any good
hanbot: mircea_popescu do they look like adriana chechik?
phf: well, that's what i thought, but trust it to argentinians to fuck it up somehow. ship oysters from boston, because "american" or whatever else
mircea_popescu: phf in fariness i had some pretty great oysters on boston wharf.
hanbot: well the japanese pop here might make decent oysters, sureh
mod6: oh hey, interesting log read this am.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 10:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.228.159 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.228.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.228.
phf: asciilifeform: ocean city?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 15:43 mircea_popescu: the actual legal standing is not established. it's one of those things that are a huge pile of nonsense a judge will have to cut through.
phf: way classier, if that term applies to the md/de/va beach area, but missing out on throngs of russian work exchange crowd :>
phf: right, lewes vs ocean city is slightly skewed from fat 16 yeard olds to fat 60 yr olds, but it's not as much of shitshow
mats: worried about getting murdered by the folks he stole from, perhaps?
mats: i can think of half a dozen reasons, all to do with publicity, subversion of justice, and embarrassing the court
mats: i believe this sorta thing is common for high profile cases
mats: ;;google site:ponzitracker.com sealed indictment
gribble: Error: We broke The Google!
shinohai: mircea_popescu: wp isn't so bad once server is tweaked a little
ben_vulpes: my insurance company politely declined to pay for the infant's herd immunity.
ben_vulpes: despite it being mandated to make payments.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 10:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12821434770207124962218342772669979580034410699894792217009678098194556802269429235901909465304384529740402801239415068853092063888103297243254641064047113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.125 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.125 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+74.45.231.
deedbot: thortron voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-23 18:44 asciilifeform takes in logz at beach
mircea_popescu: hey, did i ever publish the pics of that fabulous old cameras and photo gear bar ?