phf: you can attempt to teach oop that reflects the real world, but then you should be talking in terms of communicating agents, and that will lead you to the chinese room, at which point you'd be amiss not drop some acid.
phf: but since you can't do that in the format of american higher education, we're stuck with dog and cow bullshit
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funkenstein_: how does oop lead to discussion of communication agents?
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funkenstein_: so here's a fun one: take yi yi zhi yi and add a "fen" in the middle: yi yi fen zhi yi
BingoBoingo: That thing seems to make quite a few appearances
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell PeterL Congrats on ruining Ohio State's year
assbot: Costco shopper who broke leg after shoving receipt checker loses lawsuit seeking $610,000 | OregonLive.com ... (
http://bit.ly/1QWuXjF )
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phf: funkenstein_: alan kay's objects communicate with each other by sending messages. this is the approach taken explicitly in smalltalk, flavors (one of the lisp machine lisps), objective-c. the idea was inspired by john mccarthy's earlier concept of agents, intelligent systems that engage into q/a sessions with a user. a concurrent take on the same idea is called actors model and is implemented in erlang (and a bunch of other languages,
phf: but that's the well known one).
phf: i was saying that agents/actor is the only valuable dydactic take on object orientation in real world, it both properly traces oop history and also has meaningful parallels in biology and physics.
phf: a lot of "expected" oop behaviors like objects owning methods, synchronous bidirectional messaging that is equivalent to a procedure call, extreme early binding, etc. are artifacts of implementation and optimization strategies, as such they don't have meaning, don't have "real world" correspondence and just are. building taxonomies on such a shaky theoretical foundation results in a very messy thinking
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mircea_popescu: on top of which, i suspect there's a large chunk of "strange woman" in all this also.
mircea_popescu: (ie, we don't even know the sore spots of say kay objects, mostly because they never got a chance to be found mostly because idiots came and covered everything)
mircea_popescu: ie, "wouldn't the strange woman in the train made a great wife"
adlai: new TLD for the W, DC: .orc
gribble: dub was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 30 weeks, 1 day, 15 hours, 23 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <dub> hey now! meatspace can be busy
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phf: asciilifeform: rightly so, conversation around oop is long rotten, they are working over fp now :) above wall of text is more of an archaeological find
phf: but nice thing about log, can talk без купюр, get called out. otherwise it's of little relevance what sort of education phds get or what you can buy at a bookstore. we're sort of long on the same page that status quo is subpar
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ben_vulpes: in re fp, dunno that anyone noticed, but i backpedaled from the global state fatwa in my v poc
ben_vulpes: tres annoying to pass the same args around constantly.
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phf: ben_vulpes: "without cuts", купюра is from french coupure, and in this case means the parts that are cut out by the censor
phf: it's actually from latin caesura, which is now used as the name of pause in a poem. i thought caesarean section comes from that, but wikipedia article has a very confusing "etymology" section so i don't even know what to believe anymore!
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mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he means he can talk without bothering with the annoying sorts of context.
ben_vulpes: speaking without cuts then means to communicate intelligibly even without the bits that the censors stripped?
ben_vulpes: is there some russian joke in there about how the bits that are cut are never the relevant ones?
mircea_popescu: the fundamental point of the written word is that allows a certain sort of abstraction. it's "escapism" in a particular sense.
ben_vulpes: because a corpus through which one can grep exists, the forum can on an ongoing basis can communicate ever more abstractly?
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mircea_popescu: i don't think we mean the same by abstraction. it's not a sort of cool. it's basically purification.
mircea_popescu: like in "he was spirited away", "we abstracted him away"
mircea_popescu: phf the problem with the village of ugly women is that well, there's probably something wrong with the water. yes the people now involved may be subpar for whatever reason or explanation to do with them. maybe. or maybe THIS offshot of the hope to ai is just as rotten as the rest of the various attempts to ai that preceded it.
mircea_popescu: (what apparently nobody wants to mention is that the "good" oop now corrupted by teh evil orcs was really a child of desperation. pretty much born out of the mit through c-section, in the classical sense)
mircea_popescu: (there's a very good reason they keep going on with cow and dog are animal. there was a great paper in the log about "you know what, just change your chosen names to hashes, see if teh system appears to be doing as much "understanding" as it did before.)
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i meant abstraction in the sense of software that composes small tools into larger units that...operate at a higher level of abstraction.
mircea_popescu: you have no fucking idea what that word means, do you.
mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: romanian joke, for you. man sitting at desk, dog next to him pissing in his shoe.
mircea_popescu: guy comes in, "hey, isn't that dog pissing in your shoe bothering you ?!"
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punkman: saw this in the cinema long time ago. puts it on rewatch list.
assbot: I'll Go Home Then, It's Warm and Has Chairs: The Unpublished Emails. | David Thorne | digital library bookzz ... (
http://bit.ly/21bjUrg )
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assbot: Southwest Airlines surrenders to racists, refuses boarding to Arab-American passengers / Boing Boing ... (
http://bit.ly/1N1pDFL )
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mircea_popescu: fine example if alf's greatest fear, he wasn't nearly this derpy back before martin luther king.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: o yeah get shorty is good. sort of like early pulp fiction / snatch
mircea_popescu: punkman i just went in a cycle asking "then why the fuck are they not calling it .txt" and answering myself the line above to shinohai and now i feel a little queasy.
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punkman: you can unzip the epub, you'll get html
mircea_popescu: "this book is sold subject to the condition that it won't be lent"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: what the motherfucking shit is wrong with these people.
mircea_popescu: "oh look, i wrote some words down, now you gotta do what i say!!1"
mircea_popescu: said every obnoxious 9 yo girl having experienced insufficient ponytail pulling.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mitch_callahan your connection is doing that thing again
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mircea_popescu: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="no"?><!DOCTYPE html
mircea_popescu: content="application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8" /><meta
mircea_popescu: name="generator" content="Aspose.Words for .NET 10.6.0.0"
mircea_popescu: href="styles.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" /></head><body><div><h1
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Hello. Thank you for buying this
mircea_popescu: book. </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Or at least the
mircea_popescu: e-book.</span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> I laid this out
mircea_popescu: myself and I have never done an e-book layout before so </span><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">apologise</span><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> in advance </span><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">it isn’t very good. I probably
mircea_popescu: should have put in more effort but you know how it is. With round the
mircea_popescu: clock episodes of Property Virgins on HGTV and sleeping to do, there never
mircea_popescu: </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">seems</span><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> enough hours in the day.
mircea_popescu: </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Also, r</span><span
mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">ather than go to any real effort, I
mircea_popescu: thought it would be easier to simply collect all the material I have
mircea_popescu: written that didn’t make it into the first book, either due to timing,
mircea_popescu: space, legal issues, or not being very good, and put them in this one.
mircea_popescu: sans-serif"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Arial,
mircea_popescu: take some text, put it through "Aspose.Words for .NET 10.6.0.0" so you can have <span></span> for every other word like in the old days of microsoft computing, and then zip the shit and call it "epub".
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mitch_callahan: ahh sorry BingoBoingo, its this stupid Mac client I'm using. i'll remove it today.
mircea_popescu: "hosting fees are expensive" my foot. they're only expensive because "oh i just wanna be a designer" all over the place.
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assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 06:30:10; mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:46:27; mircea_popescu: fine example if alf's greatest fear, he wasn't nearly this derpy back before martin luther king.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: shinohai because there are way more people than jobs.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:59:58; mircea_popescu: "this book is sold subject to the condition that it won't be lent"
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 14:01:19; mircea_popescu: said every obnoxious 9 yo girl having experienced insufficient ponytail pulling.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:55:36; mircea_popescu: PK^C^D ^@^@^@^@^@\
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform speaking of defending, see the latest trilema.
mircea_popescu: which i suppose counts for "368" pages in lalaland wherew they do 1k characters per page.
mircea_popescu shudders at the thought he actually had to "turn a page" every 1k bytes.
mircea_popescu: books are for german kids, really, the sort that grew up waddled at the ankles.
mircea_popescu: a) none of these derps know any maths and b) i do and somehow survive. if you need a particular notation to do maths either you're not very good or are trying to talk to idiots.
kakobrekla: like feynman and his diagrams. total idiot.
jurov: i'd like to see natural language applied to programming, too
mircea_popescu: i dunno why the fuck this point is so unobvious, but : most of the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place to use this as leverage against complexity elsewhere.
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mircea_popescu: there is a fucking reason white people are better than all the other people, and it has jack shit to do with the skin.
mircea_popescu: a lot more to do with the brilliant idea of "use these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother."
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jurov: adding a meaning for a word that already has zillion of other meanings, instead of using dedicated symbol is NOT reducing complexity
mircea_popescu: but does your experience also include what i actually said above, or just what you saw in it ?
mircea_popescu: i said "clamp down in one place" not "reduce". how the fuck are you goingto reduce complexity and why aren't you moving on to entropy next!
jurov: you explicitly named the place as "use these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother."
mircea_popescu: (it actually makes the level raise slightly, but that is part of the "hope and pray" definition of abstraction yesterday - we hope and pray it dun matter.)
jurov: that's finest advocacy of humanist pseudosciences i ever saw
jurov: they try to take existing language and leverage it, too
gribble: Error: "#128077;" is not a valid command.
mircea_popescu: anyway, again not sure why this isn't obvious, but the alphabet is (still is, in spite of all the "help" geeks gave it) a defined, closed, easily countable set.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 16:23:54; mircea_popescu: i dunno why the fuck this point is so unobvious, but : most of the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place to use this as leverage against complexity elsewhere.
mircea_popescu: which is why this "no but math notation" argument is so bifurcacious.
trinque: interesting. there you see that abstraction increases complexity clearly, by way of an exaggerated case
trinque: SQL also, "lets make a language for accountants and other non-programmers"
trinque: they at (the very) least made something of a double-back somewhere along the language's history
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform same problem is why everyone hates what originally seemed obvious and intuitive : the text powered adventure
mircea_popescu: as far as her dumb ass is concerned, the best possible train is a ghetto blaster with the volume welded to low, playing christmas carrols from under the mirrors-ensconced speakers.
mircea_popescu: in other news, "you should perhaps point out to your mother that being ugly is no excuse to rawdog drunks" is my new favourite insult.
kakobrekla: <trinque> SQL also, "lets make a language for accountants and other non-programmers" < yet is anyone still writing raw queries in this day?
mircea_popescu: pretty much every time i want something from trilema i SELECT by hand
mircea_popescu: i really have no idea why i'd want a language on top of that. what's it going to do ?
trinque: frustrate you by hiding functionality of the underlying
fluffypony: kakobrekla: I write raw queries a few times a week
mircea_popescu: the only way it could be useful is if it somehow intuited what the columns are actually named for me so i don't have to always keep checking
kakobrekla: you dont need 'functionality' to SELECT from wp-posts
trinque: kakobrekla: it is amusing though, yes, that this that was originally intended to be a user interface got buried as it did
fluffypony: SELECT * FROM kakobrekla_brain WHERE is_disgusting=1;
mircea_popescu: and honestly i don't mind it so much. about the same as my life generally, really.
mircea_popescu: if you're going to rule people you gotta be able to somehow explain what you actually want done and raw queries are really not far off.
mircea_popescu: i would much rather spend five minutes writing queries than figuring why the fuck copy *. doesn't work and ending up using cat
mircea_popescu: seriously, leaving aside everything else, why the fuck would you make THIRTY EIGHT DIFFERENT FILES ?
mircea_popescu: what is this "chapter" thing and why is it in your epub^H^H^H^H zipfile ?
jurov: i'm okay with sql. but when programatically constructing a query, i prefer sqlalchemy
kakobrekla: most folks most of the time dont need 'functionality', just like with sugar.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example.
kakobrekla: this one: <trinque> frustrate you by hiding functionality of the underlying
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trinque: mircea_popescu │ kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example. << this I think calls for careful steps and a machete
trinque: the huge problem with relational databases is that they conflated programming and declarative data access to the detriment of both
trinque: one place you'll find c-like expressions and functions; another you find set union and difference operators which work entirely via magic
trinque: this magic is why (as I understand it) asciilifeform abhors the thing; you have in no way been involved with what steps will be taken to compute the result other than describing the result itself, barring again, the places where actual programming crept back in
trinque: the usefulness of this declarative mode is I think as you describe, "get me a that" damn it, because I want one.
trinque: aside this, any work I'm doing in databases has been indefinitely postponed until I understand CLOS far better, and review what was done atop it
kakobrekla: if you think you have done away with magick using raw queries you are mistaken
trinque: nah, I am saying the db is magic to the core.
kakobrekla: the layer on top (at least mine) generates queries deterministically and the result is not obstructed
trinque: use objects at that layer?
kakobrekla: i havent used sqla, i guess its is probably similar though i cant say for sure
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jurov: some people went boldly to solve RDBMS problem... and created MongoDB. *cringe*
trinque: myeah, that thing is a sin
trinque: jurov: I simply wish to sit with my data-set and say "give me the X for which this lambda evaluates true, retrieve its related Y and Z, compute this aggregate over the related Y and Z; do this again with another lambda. Return the paginated list of the intersection of the two result sets"
trinque: I'm sure this could be done rather well atop CLOS with no other monstrosities involved
trinque: and the observation which led to databases in the first place is that questions like the above arise constantly; they are not thought of once and etched into the program in stone
trinque: these document stores are nothing more than "What, you don't already know the key of the value you want?" and subsequently "Well fuck, how do we tack relational ideas back onto this, now that we've abandoned all notion of formal structure?"
mircea_popescu: trinque can i get "this" and "that" comparisons of the actual thing ? "ceci n'est pas une pipe" "this is not a pipe" sort of thing
jurov: trinque i'd rather have lazy evaluator that collects the filters and operations I normally have in the program, and compiles them together into optimized query and executes it only when the result is needed
jurov: but that's hard AI, I'm afrraid
trinque: mircea_popescu: the mismatch I was referring to was the object-relational-mapper; it cannot for example (easily, or usably) create a new object which is the synthesis of n other objects done by inner join
trinque: on the SQL side you're more than welcome to create new sets at will via views
jurov: i don't see why this of all is the problem, objects usually know which table/column is the field wired to
trinque: there are sets which are derived from operations on other sets
trinque: "an active_customer is one with an active_subscription and an enabled flag and..."
jurov: as long as all the values take their primary keys with them, you're fine
jurov: for me biggest prob was the consistency, in any nontrivial ORM situation you build the objects partially, must take care of constraints... db that defers checking constraints to commit would help, but then how do you report it to user... hairiness
trinque: and actually you're going to end up looking at SQL ASTs to figure out where a column came from
trinque: jurov: *that* was my point
trinque: that using an ORM you duplicate what the DB can already do
trinque: why not derive your JS form validator or whatever from your db constraint?
trinque: "because SQL" << and now we're back to me writing a CL RDBMS
mircea_popescu: for some reason these all sound to me like "the problems we get for having a bad db design"
mircea_popescu: if one structures his tables sanely then none of these complex requests exiswt
trinque: that's certainly so, that you either pick a sane table structure, or you write terrible queries
jurov: hahaha and then is not able to detect glaring errors...because "dis doth not exist!!111"
trinque: and my most complex queries have typically involved converting one schema to another one time, and then throwing away the queries
jurov: !up linton_s_dawson
jurov: pls don't thank me
wyrdmantis: mircea_popescu can i have eulora login?
mircea_popescu: "After fifteen years in the design industry and realising the only difference between sitting in front of a computer facilitating client's requests and kneeling on the urine soaked floor of a truck stop bathroom giving five dollar blowjobs to men named Chuck, is the amount of urine on the floor, the Jumping Frog fee has evolved from insurance against post-project client suggestion to client incentive to have somebody e
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phf: ;;later tell wyrdmantis PMed, but not sure if you got it before timeouting.
http://www.eulorum.org/OS_X works, let me know if you run into any issues
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mircea_popescu: i actually get more "web designer" spam than "seo expert" spam.
assbot: MacBook "Core 2 Duo" 2.4 13" (Black-08) Specs (Early 2008, MB404LL/A, MacBook4,1, A1181, 2242) @ EveryMac.com ... (
http://bit.ly/1MLwIeg )
pete_dushenski: wtf are you doing dinking around with one on the first place ?
mircea_popescu: trotyl is more expensive than either the thing or the intended customer.
assbot: Logged on 19-11-2015 17:59:12; pete_dushenski: even place large quantity of gold in land mines. hell, make the land mines ~entirely~ out of gold. not like the yellow stuff has any better uses.
mircea_popescu is more into the "Brothel of intellectual lusts" take on female degradation than the flimsy political apropos take.
mircea_popescu: i never saw much in it (and in pelevin generally) other than "oh if only the holy tenets of TRUE socialism hadn't been /intinate/ or however you say that in russian
mircea_popescu: isn't this the book with lena the "poor her" whore and that schmuck doing dune "the voice" v2.0 ?
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 17:09:00; thestringpuller: "the wrath of alfdog" << great name for a hip hop album
mircea_popescu: anyway, i get it, an entire generation of disenfranchised young russians figure they're great chaps and the fault must be in the women empowering the old farts.
assbot: The Aviationist » Watch this video of Iranian F-14 Tomcats escorting a Russian Tu-95 bomber during air strike in Syria ... (
http://bit.ly/1MLA15f )
mircea_popescu: "oh oh airstrike" "ok and ?" "we took out their outhouse!111"
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: i have nfi what you are no matter how hard i try.
mircea_popescu: here's a primer on airstrike efficiency : the brits did 7 (SEVEN!) mid-air refuellings for one of their rustbuckets to manage to drop ONE bomb on the one runway in the faulklands, "disabling" it
☟︎ mircea_popescu: except the argentines fixed it that same day, and used it to land hercules for the entire duration of the conflict.
mircea_popescu: cost about 150mn to tear down (without counting amortisation and hr costs) and about 18k to fix.
mircea_popescu: well, the ~$65 in box cutters the terrorists spent did bring down a 8-10bn piece of real estate.
pete_dushenski: one of these aggressors has too much money in their pockets, while the other knows full well the value of a dollar.
mircea_popescu: either that or possibly doesn't give a shit about caryatids.
mircea_popescu: supposedly (ro) intinate = (en) defiled, but im not too happy to it. tina is a derrogative for earth, soil. it's expected to be barren, powdery (but noit outright sand) and in generaly the equivalent of dirt.
mircea_popescu: i had a great pic up lemme see if i can ever find anything again in this smoldering pile of everything that's my blog