log☇︎
⏐︎ 7074
phf: you can attempt to teach oop that reflects the real world, but then you should be talking in terms of communicating agents, and that will lead you to the chinese room, at which point you'd be amiss not drop some acid.
phf: but since you can't do that in the format of american higher education, we're stuck with dog and cow bullshit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00051588 = 2.6052 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2015/fellow-zoologists/#comment-115897
assbot: Fellow zoologists! on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1O9kNvp )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54800 @ 0.00052215 = 28.6138 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19000 @ 0.00052262 = 9.9298 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18250 @ 0.00051582 = 9.4137 BTC [-] {3}
funkenstein_: phf, thanks for that gary larson XD love it
funkenstein_: how does oop lead to discussion of communication agents?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00052262 = 7.8916 BTC [+] {2}
funkenstein_: so here's a fun one: take yi yi zhi yi and add a "fen" in the middle: yi yi fen zhi yi
funkenstein_: 一亿分之一 one hundred millionth
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: From http://trilema.com/2015/a-tale-of-two-breakfasts-or-the-whores-broth/ ?
assbot: A Tale of Two Breakfasts, or, The Whore's Broth on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1W2MtlA )
assbot: A Tale of Two Breakfasts, or, The Whore's Broth on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1W2MtlA )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aha, and also from earlier photo set with the gift shop and the statue of some saint
BingoBoingo: That thing seems to make quite a few appearances
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell PeterL Congrats on ruining Ohio State's year
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Costco shopper who broke leg after shoving receipt checker loses lawsuit seeking $610,000 | OregonLive.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1QWuXjF ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14493 @ 0.00051579 = 7.4753 BTC [-] {2} asciilifeform: 'I am curious as to how many jurors they went through before they found a non Costco member.....or if they did.' << from commentz phf: funkenstein_: alan kay's objects communicate with each other by sending messages. this is the approach taken explicitly in smalltalk, flavors (one of the lisp machine lisps), objective-c. the idea was inspired by john mccarthy's earlier concept of agents, intelligent systems that engage into q/a sessions with a user. a concurrent take on the same idea is called actors model and is implemented in erlang (and a bunch of other languages, phf: but that's the well known one). phf: phf: i was saying that agents/actor is the only valuable dydactic take on object orientation in real world, it both properly traces oop history and also has meaningful parallels in biology and physics. phf: a lot of "expected" oop behaviors like objects owning methods, synchronous bidirectional messaging that is equivalent to a procedure call, extreme early binding, etc. are artifacts of implementation and optimization strategies, as such they don't have meaning, don't have "real world" correspondence and just are. building taxonomies on such a shaky theoretical foundation results in a very messy thinking asciilifeform: phf: the last 20+ yrs of nonlisp resulted in the typical sane and technically-literate fella having an extreme allergy to just about any mention of oop asciilifeform: (see, e.g., mircea_popescu's reaction when the subject was brought up) asciilifeform: because - like it or not - when you walk into the book shop, or even the university library, today, and look for oop - you don't get a. kay's smalltalk, s. keene's clos, or kiczales's 'metaobject protocol.' you get: java, 'gang of four', and other swill. asciilifeform: and we're actually long past the point where a typical instructor (phd) learned on the latter asciilifeform: and on NONE of the actual classics of the subject assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00050896 = 10.0265 BTC [-] {2} mircea_popescu: on top of which, i suspect there's a large chunk of "strange woman" in all this also. asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ?? mircea_popescu: (ie, we don't even know the sore spots of say kay objects, mostly because they never got a chance to be found mostly because idiots came and covered everything) asciilifeform: eh not quite, we have some idea mircea_popescu: ie, "wouldn't the strange woman in the train made a great wife" mircea_popescu: "no. she snores." mircea_popescu: maybe. asciilifeform: talk to the smalltalk aficionados. asciilifeform: (there are sore spots, aha. but this one here's a woman and the other one is a sack of potatoes with fuckhole drilled in) mircea_popescu: well sure/ adlai: new TLD for the W, DC: .orc mircea_popescu: !up dub mircea_popescu: ;;seen dub gribble: dub was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 30 weeks, 1 day, 15 hours, 23 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <dub> hey now! meatspace can be busy assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8878 @ 0.00050949 = 4.5233 BTC [+] assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26469 @ 0.00051121 = 13.5312 BTC [+] {4} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.00051307 = 7.6447 BTC [+] {3} phf: asciilifeform: rightly so, conversation around oop is long rotten, they are working over fp now :) above wall of text is more of an archaeological find phf: but nice thing about log, can talk без купюр, get called out. otherwise it's of little relevance what sort of education phds get or what you can buy at a bookstore. we're sort of long on the same page that status quo is subpar assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2350 @ 0.00051363 = 1.207 BTC [+] {2} ben_vulpes: phf: без купюр? assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30300 @ 0.00051991 = 15.7533 BTC [+] {6} ben_vulpes: in re fp, dunno that anyone noticed, but i backpedaled from the global state fatwa in my v poc ben_vulpes: tres annoying to pass the same args around constantly. assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14990 @ 0.00050722 = 7.6032 BTC [-] {5} phf: ben_vulpes: "without cuts", купюра is from french coupure, and in this case means the parts that are cut out by the censor phf: it's actually from latin caesura, which is now used as the name of pause in a poem. i thought caesarean section comes from that, but wikipedia article has a very confusing "etymology" section so i don't even know what to believe anymore! assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 162576 @ 0.00052283 = 84.9996 BTC [+] {7} ben_vulpes: ah assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00051984 = 13.3599 BTC [-] {4} mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he means he can talk without bothering with the annoying sorts of context. ben_vulpes: hm ben_vulpes: i might begin to be understanding ben_vulpes: speaking without cuts then means to communicate intelligibly even without the bits that the censors stripped? mircea_popescu: or without the baby crying. ben_vulpes: is there some russian joke in there about how the bits that are cut are never the relevant ones? mircea_popescu: the fundamental point of the written word is that allows a certain sort of abstraction. it's "escapism" in a particular sense. mircea_popescu: the log system takes this fundamentally further. ben_vulpes: because a corpus through which one can grep exists, the forum can on an ongoing basis can communicate ever more abstractly? assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21126 @ 0.00051973 = 10.9798 BTC [-] {2} mircea_popescu: i don't think we mean the same by abstraction. it's not a sort of cool. it's basically purification. mircea_popescu: like in "he was spirited away", "we abstracted him away" mircea_popescu: phf the problem with the village of ugly women is that well, there's probably something wrong with the water. yes the people now involved may be subpar for whatever reason or explanation to do with them. maybe. or maybe THIS offshot of the hope to ai is just as rotten as the rest of the various attempts to ai that preceded it. mircea_popescu: for reasons to do with that, instead. mircea_popescu: (what apparently nobody wants to mention is that the "good" oop now corrupted by teh evil orcs was really a child of desperation. pretty much born out of the mit through c-section, in the classical sense) mircea_popescu: (there's a very good reason they keep going on with cow and dog are animal. there was a great paper in the log about "you know what, just change your chosen names to hashes, see if teh system appears to be doing as much "understanding" as it did before.) ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i meant abstraction in the sense of software that composes small tools into larger units that...operate at a higher level of abstraction. mircea_popescu: you have no fucking idea what that word means, do you. ben_vulpes: apparently not! ben_vulpes: what does it mean then. mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed. ben_vulpes roars ben_vulpes: SOUNDS A LOT LIKE WRITING SOFTWARE ben_vulpes: i kid, i kid. assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MK3pJe ) mircea_popescu: romanian joke, for you. man sitting at desk, dog next to him pissing in his shoe. mircea_popescu: guy comes in, "hey, isn't that dog pissing in your shoe bothering you ?!" mircea_popescu: "fac abstractie." mircea_popescu: (i am abstracting) ben_vulpes: heh assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MK3XyF ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28348 @ 0.00051973 = 14.7333 BTC [-] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1952 @ 0.00052307 = 1.021 BTC [+] assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8536 @ 0.00051758 = 4.4181 BTC [-] {3} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36150 @ 0.00050964 = 18.4235 BTC [-] {3} punkman: speaking of Alan Kay, I recently stumbled on one of his inane ted-style talks, and his lets-reinvent-computars project http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm assbot: Viewpoints Research Institute ... ( http://bit.ly/1NkoyPQ ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8085 @ 0.00050708 = 4.0997 BTC [-] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8265 @ 0.0005068 = 4.1887 BTC [-] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.0005101 = 10.8651 BTC [+] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42369 @ 0.00050829 = 21.5357 BTC [-] {5} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19382 @ 0.0005101 = 9.8868 BTC [+] {2} deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Get Shorty. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/11/22/get-shorty/ punkman: saw this in the cinema long time ago. puts it on rewatch list. assbot: I'll Go Home Then, It's Warm and Has Chairs: The Unpublished Emails. | David Thorne | digital library bookzz ... ( http://bit.ly/21bjUrg ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56933 @ 0.00052153 = 29.6923 BTC [+] {5} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8544 @ 0.00052405 = 4.4775 BTC [+] assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47601 @ 0.00050997 = 24.2751 BTC [-] {5} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100500 @ 0.00050679 = 50.9324 BTC [-] {3} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16834 @ 0.00051283 = 8.633 BTC [+] {2} assbot: Southwest Airlines surrenders to racists, refuses boarding to Arab-American passengers / Boing Boing ... ( http://bit.ly/1N1pDFL ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00050679 = 12.5177 BTC [-] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8140 @ 0.00051225 = 4.1697 BTC [+] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 311 @ 0.00328387 = 1.0213 BTC [-] {3} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40312 @ 0.00051245 = 20.6579 BTC [+] {3} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12992 @ 0.00051372 = 6.6743 BTC [+] assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84600 @ 0.00050755 = 42.9387 BTC [-] {4} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19203 @ 0.00051453 = 9.8805 BTC [+] assbot: Just a moment... ... ( http://bit.ly/1MvMkVt ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15494 @ 0.00051493 = 7.9783 BTC [+] {3} mircea_popescu: punkman guy is like 75 or some shit. mircea_popescu: fine example if alf's greatest fear, he wasn't nearly this derpy back before martin luther king. mircea_popescu: o yeah get shorty is good. sort of like early pulp fiction / snatch mircea_popescu: meh, epub. i'll wait for the text version. punkman: epub is text punkman: this one at least mircea_popescu: shinohai because there are way more people than jobs. mircea_popescu: punkman i just went in a cycle asking "then why the fuck are they not calling it .txt" and answering myself the line above to shinohai and now i feel a little queasy. punkman: lol assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9450 @ 0.00052382 = 4.9501 BTC [+] {2} mircea_popescu: PK^C^D ^@^@^@^@^@\ mircea_popescu: lies. punkman: you can unzip the epub, you'll get html mircea_popescu: a ty. mircea_popescu: "this book is sold subject to the condition that it won't be lent" mircea_popescu: what the motherfucking shit is wrong with these people. mircea_popescu: "oh look, i wrote some words down, now you gotta do what i say!!1" mircea_popescu: said every obnoxious 9 yo girl having experienced insufficient ponytail pulling. BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mitch_callahan your connection is doing that thing again gribble: The operation succeeded. assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36100 @ 0.00050963 = 18.3976 BTC [-] {4} mircea_popescu: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="no"?><!DOCTYPE html mircea_popescu: PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" mircea_popescu: xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" mircea_popescu: content="application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8" /><meta mircea_popescu: http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css" /><meta mircea_popescu: name="generator" content="Aspose.Words for .NET 10.6.0.0" mircea_popescu: href="styles.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" /></head><body><div><h1 mircea_popescu: id="navPoint_1"><span>Foreword</span></h1><p><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">&#xa0;</span></p><p><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Hello. Thank you for buying this mircea_popescu: book. </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Or at least the mircea_popescu: e-book.</span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> I laid this out mircea_popescu: myself and I have never done an e-book layout before so </span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">I </span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">apologise</span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> in advance </span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">if </span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">it isn’t very good. I probably mircea_popescu: should have put in more effort but you know how it is. With round the mircea_popescu: clock episodes of Property Virgins on HGTV and sleeping to do, there never mircea_popescu: </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">seems</span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif"> enough hours in the day. mircea_popescu: </span><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Also, r</span><span mircea_popescu: style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif">ather than go to any real effort, I mircea_popescu: thought it would be easier to simply collect all the material I have mircea_popescu: written that didn’t make it into the first book, either due to timing, mircea_popescu: space, legal issues, or not being very good, and put them in this one. mircea_popescu: </span></p><p><span style="font-family:Arial, mircea_popescu: sans-serif">&#xa0;</span></p><p><span style="font-family:Arial, mircea_popescu: sans-serif">Hosting fees are e mircea_popescu: would you look at this stupid shit! kakobrekla: srs. mircea_popescu: take some text, put it through "Aspose.Words for .NET 10.6.0.0" so you can have <span></span> for every other word like in the old days of microsoft computing, and then zip the shit and call it "epub". mircea_popescu: fucking hell already. go make altcoins, people. assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31500 @ 0.00052382 = 16.5003 BTC [+] {2} mitch_callahan: ahh sorry BingoBoingo, its this stupid Mac client I'm using. i'll remove it today. mircea_popescu: "hosting fees are expensive" my foot. they're only expensive because "oh i just wanna be a designer" all over the place. punkman: https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/502526058.jpg saw Uncle Vanya yesterday. here's the set chekov-gun'd until the fucking picture frames are empty. assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1T82IOj ) assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1kOAQn5 ) assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23411 @ 0.00052382 = 12.2632 BTC [+] {2} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46515 @ 0.00052382 = 24.3655 BTC [+] {3} assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00052383 = 2.4096 BTC [+] {2} deedbot-: [Trilema] Fuck you and your stupid epub. Also, David Thorne's 2nd book (it isn't really very good). - http://trilema.com/2015/fuck-you-and-your-stupid-epub-also-david-thornes-2nd-book-it-isnt-really-very-good/ asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329599 >> 'the map is not the territory but the territory didn't fit in my glove compartment' assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 06:30:10; mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed. asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329616 >> snore, this is what happens if you live too long - old, 'respectable', impotent assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 07:22:09; punkman: speaking of Alan Kay, I recently stumbled on one of his inane ted-style talks, and his lets-reinvent-computars project http://www.vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329646 >> perhaps somebody will have the basic decency to feed me a bullet prior assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:46:27; mircea_popescu: fine example if alf's greatest fear, he wasn't nearly this derpy back before martin luther king. asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329651 >> but there are ~precisely~ as many people as there are picks at butugychag assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: shinohai because there are way more people than jobs. assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:59:58; mircea_popescu: "this book is sold subject to the condition that it won't be lent" assbot: Loper OS » To Lend is the Right of an Owner – That is, Not You. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TY5dDA ) asciilifeform: 'To those who would retain their right to personal property: your only true allies are the pirates. Not “lending libraries”, not “reasonably priced” and “humane” iTunes-like services. The pirates are the only people presently defending the no-compromise, My-Computer-is-Mine point of view.' -- yours truly asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329662 << gianni rodari had a rhyme about 'the girl that wanted a song just for her and nobody else' assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 14:01:19; mircea_popescu: said every obnoxious 9 yo girl having experienced insufficient ponytail pulling. asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329655 << the 'PK' didn't give it away ?? assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 13:55:36; mircea_popescu: PK^C^D ^@^@^@^@^@\ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only after he said. asciilifeform: y'know, 0x50 0x4B 0x03 0x04. asciilifeform nostalgic mircea_popescu: that part of my brain has been overwritten by tits. mircea_popescu: asciilifeform speaking of defending, see the latest trilema. asciilifeform reading it presently asciilifeform briefly took a break from debugging a motherfucking debugger mircea_popescu: lol asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja actually swallow that whole thing ? mircea_popescu: what ? asciilifeform: the thorne turd mircea_popescu: well yes. mircea_popescu: it's just 400kb or so. asciilifeform: it isn't the weight asciilifeform: but the... contents mircea_popescu: which i suppose counts for "368" pages in lalaland wherew they do 1k characters per page. mircea_popescu: what about them ? mircea_popescu shudders at the thought he actually had to "turn a page" every 1k bytes. mircea_popescu: god damned it i'd rather be a z80/ mircea_popescu: books are for german kids, really, the sort that grew up waddled at the ankles. asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ergo the popularity of mechanized b00kz mircea_popescu: what the fuck is wrong wiht plain text omfg. asciilifeform: aside from maths - nothing asciilifeform: for the most part that is what i keep around on dead tree mircea_popescu: a) none of these derps know any maths and b) i do and somehow survive. if you need a particular notation to do maths either you're not very good or are trying to talk to idiots. asciilifeform would like to read mircea_popescu's notation-less mathematical work. i bet it is rather like euclid on lsd kakobrekla: like feynman and his diagrams. total idiot. asciilifeform: and fuck leibniz aha mircea_popescu retreats growling audibly. jurov: i'd like to see natural language applied to programming, too asciilifeform: jurov: ever use 'hypertalk' ? asciilifeform: jurov: you can see a little bit in one of my old articles, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=568 assbot: Loper OS » Why Hypercard Had to Die ... ( http://bit.ly/1U578pU ) asciilifeform: (imho the idea of 'natural language program' is fundamentally, deeply braindamaged like few other ideas) mircea_popescu: "natural languages" != "alphabetic notation". mircea_popescu: i dunno why the fuck this point is so unobvious, but : most of the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place to use this as leverage against complexity elsewhere. assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36155 @ 0.00052348 = 18.9264 BTC [-] {3} mircea_popescu: there is a fucking reason white people are better than all the other people, and it has jack shit to do with the skin. mircea_popescu: a lot more to do with the brilliant idea of "use these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother." assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67045 @ 0.00052406 = 35.1356 BTC [+] {3} jurov: adding a meaning for a word that already has zillion of other meanings, instead of using dedicated symbol is NOT reducing complexity mircea_popescu: and you know this how ? jurov: from experience jurov: and you? mircea_popescu: but does your experience also include what i actually said above, or just what you saw in it ? mircea_popescu: i said "clamp down in one place" not "reduce". how the fuck are you goingto reduce complexity and why aren't you moving on to entropy next! jurov: you explicitly named the place as "use these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother." mircea_popescu: aha. mircea_popescu: think of it as a boat. mircea_popescu: the boat does not make the ocean level any lower. mircea_popescu: except it allows you to stay dry. mircea_popescu: (it actually makes the level raise slightly, but that is part of the "hope and pray" definition of abstraction yesterday - we hope and pray it dun matter.) jurov: that's finest advocacy of humanist pseudosciences i ever saw jurov: they try to take existing language and leverage it, too mircea_popescu: &#128077; gribble: Error: "#128077;" is not a valid command. mircea_popescu: 11110000:10011111:10010001:10001101 mircea_popescu: you know what i mean... mircea_popescu: anyway, again not sure why this isn't obvious, but the alphabet is (still is, in spite of all the "help" geeks gave it) a defined, closed, easily countable set. mircea_popescu: "natural language" isn't even defined. asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329763 << with regards to mathematics, it was ~specifically~ about tying folks' dirty, sticky, shit-covered 'intuitive language brain' monkey hands and forcing formal reasoning assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 16:23:54; mircea_popescu: i dunno why the fuck this point is so unobvious, but : most of the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place to use this as leverage against complexity elsewhere. mircea_popescu: aha. mircea_popescu: which is why this "no but math notation" argument is so bifurcacious. asciilifeform: take, for instance, http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/hypercard-calc/hc23.jpg << this. it took me perhaps 20 whole minutes to crap out. know why ? assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1lCyVCf ) asciilifeform: the reason was that using english as it permits itself to be used, specifically fails, in ways which the hypertalk docs did not take any pains to describe asciilifeform: (in short, the disambiguation has to be done like-so; and you can use pronouns, but only like-so) asciilifeform: overall much more pain, imho, than any ordinary programming language. trinque: interesting. there you see that abstraction increases complexity clearly, by way of an exaggerated case asciilifeform: idiot abstraction balloons up complexity like nothing else trinque: SQL also, "lets make a language for accountants and other non-programmers" assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1lCzeNs ) trinque: they at (the very) least made something of a double-back somewhere along the language's history thestringpuller: trinque: that's an apt observation of SQL. mircea_popescu: asciilifeform same problem is why everyone hates what originally seemed obvious and intuitive : the text powered adventure mircea_popescu: motherfucker i hated larry's comprehension. asciilifeform: trying to make a programming language for ~the wrong side of the camel hump~ is like trying to build a car for folks missing both arms and legs asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: precisely that thestringpuller: what's with all the danny devito reviews on da blogs? mircea_popescu: no. bad analogy. mircea_popescu: it's like trying to make trains for cixi mircea_popescu: as far as her dumb ass is concerned, the best possible train is a ghetto blaster with the volume welded to low, playing christmas carrols from under the mirrors-ensconced speakers. mircea_popescu: in other news, "you should perhaps point out to your mother that being ugly is no excuse to rawdog drunks" is my new favourite insult. asciilifeform mumbles something about$chipvendor rawdogging drunks
asciilifeform has 'wrath' bit set
thestringpuller: "the wrath of alfdog" << great name for a hip hop album
asciilifeform: mips_ejtag_drscan_8_out(ejtag_info, MCHP_DE_ASSERT_RST); << motherfuckers. WE ARE SO SPESHUL, can't use standard mips reset ahahaha.
kakobrekla: <trinque> SQL also, "lets make a language for accountants and other non-programmers" < yet is anyone still writing raw queries in this day?
mircea_popescu: pretty much every time i want something from trilema i SELECT by hand
mircea_popescu: i really have no idea why i'd want a language on top of that. what's it going to do ?
trinque: frustrate you by hiding functionality of the underlying
fluffypony: kakobrekla: I write raw queries a few times a week
mircea_popescu: the only way it could be useful is if it somehow intuited what the columns are actually named for me so i don't have to always keep checking
mircea_popescu: but that ain't happening
kakobrekla: you dont need 'functionality' to SELECT from wp-posts
asciilifeform: intuited << see one of the better mr mold pieces re: same, http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/07/wolfram-alpha-and-hubristic-user.html
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: Wolfram Alpha and hubristic user interfaces ... ( http://bit.ly/1lCBDHG )
asciilifeform: '...control interfaces must not be intelligent. Briefly, intelligent user interfaces should be limited to applications in which the user does not expect to control the behavior of the product. If the product is used as a tool, its interface should be as unintelligent as possible. Stupid is predictable; predictable is learnable; learnable is usable.'
trinque: kakobrekla: it is amusing though, yes, that this that was originally intended to be a user interface got buried as it did
kakobrekla: i find raw queries disgusting
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: do you find the tool disgusting, or the work ?
asciilifeform: folks tend to confuse the two
kakobrekla: perhaps both.
fluffypony: SELECT * FROM kakobrekla_brain WHERE is_disgusting=1;
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i know how to do joins and everything!
mircea_popescu: what functionality are you talking about ?
fluffypony: ORDER BY last_disgusted_date DESC;
fluffypony: :-P
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu probably also knows how to change a crankshaft. but does he ~want~ to.
mircea_popescu: and honestly i don't mind it so much. about the same as my life generally, really.
mircea_popescu: "bring me this" "fetch me a that" "kill that schmuck"
mircea_popescu: if you're going to rule people you gotta be able to somehow explain what you actually want done and raw queries are really not far off.
asciilifeform: ah but machine doesn't typically respond to whipping
mircea_popescu: nor needs it.
asciilifeform: which is why man so often becomes servant of machine, rather than vice versa
asciilifeform: stuck 'wrestling with the pig'
mircea_popescu: i would much rather spend five minutes writing queries than figuring why the fuck copy *. doesn't work and ending up using cat
mircea_popescu: seriously, leaving aside everything else, why the fuck would you make THIRTY EIGHT DIFFERENT FILES ?
mircea_popescu: what is this "chapter" thing and why is it in your epub^H^H^H^H zipfile ?
jurov: i'm okay with sql. but when programatically constructing a query, i prefer sqlalchemy
kakobrekla: most folks most of the time dont need 'functionality', just like with sugar.
asciilifeform: see also mircea_popescu's 'this is a spiffy rifle, i'll take it fishing and to bed'
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example.
kakobrekla: this one: <trinque> frustrate you by hiding functionality of the underlying
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16361 @ 0.00051362 = 8.4033 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [FN] [F.MPIF] 30000 @ 0.000209 = 6.27 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00051366 = 13.9202 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: mircea_popescu │ kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example. << this I think calls for careful steps and a machete
trinque: the huge problem with relational databases is that they conflated programming and declarative data access to the detriment of both
trinque: one place you'll find c-like expressions and functions; another you find set union and difference operators which work entirely via magic
trinque: this magic is why (as I understand it) asciilifeform abhors the thing; you have in no way been involved with what steps will be taken to compute the result other than describing the result itself, barring again, the places where actual programming crept back in
trinque: the usefulness of this declarative mode is I think as you describe, "get me a that" damn it, because I want one.
trinque: aside this, any work I'm doing in databases has been indefinitely postponed until I understand CLOS far better, and review what was done atop it
kakobrekla: if you think you have done away with magick using raw queries you are mistaken
trinque: nah, I am saying the db is magic to the core.
trinque: horrible chimera
kakobrekla: the layer on top (at least mine) generates queries deterministically and the result is not obstructed
trinque: use objects at that layer?
kakobrekla: optionally
trinque: SQLAlchemy or the like?
kakobrekla: i havent used sqla, i guess its is probably similar though i cant say for sure
kakobrekla doesnt use off shelf solution
trinque: cool
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 59700 @ 0.00011016 = 6.5766 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: some people went boldly to solve RDBMS problem... and created MongoDB. *cringe*
trinque: myeah, that thing is a sin
asciilifeform: there are 'people' programming computers who wouldn't have been allowed within cannon shot of a tractor in kolhoz, yes
trinque: jurov: I simply wish to sit with my data-set and say "give me the X for which this lambda evaluates true, retrieve its related Y and Z, compute this aggregate over the related Y and Z; do this again with another lambda. Return the paginated list of the intersection of the two result sets"
trinque: I'm sure this could be done rather well atop CLOS with no other monstrosities involved
trinque: and the observation which led to databases in the first place is that questions like the above arise constantly; they are not thought of once and etched into the program in stone
trinque: these document stores are nothing more than "What, you don't already know the key of the value you want?" and subsequently "Well fuck, how do we tack relational ideas back onto this, now that we've abandoned all notion of formal structure?"
asciilifeform: http://siliconexposed.blogspot.com/2014_03_01_archive.html << unrelated but very spiffy
assbot: Silicon Exposed: March 2014 ... ( http://bit.ly/1SSZkpN )
asciilifeform: 'Once the via was drilled and it appeared we had made contact with the signal trace, it was time to backfill with platinum. The video below is sped up 10x to avoid boring my readers ;)'
asciilifeform: 'Once everything was done and the chamber was vented I removed the carbon coating with oxygen plasma (the cleanroom's standard photoresist removal process), packaged up my sample, went home, and soldered it back to the board for testing. After powering it up... nothing! The device was as dead as a doornail, I couldn't even get a JTAG IDCODE from it. ... ... ruled out beam-induced damage as I had not been hitting any of the I/O
asciilifeform: circuitry with the ion beam ... I realized what was going on almost instantly: the antenna effect. The bond wire and leadframe connected to each pad in the device was acting as an antenna and coupling some of the 13.56 MHz RF energy from the plasma into the input buffers, blowing out the ESD diodes and input transistors, and leaving me with a dead chip.'
mircea_popescu: trinque can i get "this" and "that" comparisons of the actual thing ? "ceci n'est pas une pipe" "this is not a pipe" sort of thing
jurov: trinque i'd rather have lazy evaluator that collects the filters and operations I normally have in the program, and compiles them together into optimized query and executes it only when the result is needed
jurov: but that's hard AI, I'm afrraid
trinque: mircea_popescu: the mismatch I was referring to was the object-relational-mapper; it cannot for example (easily, or usably) create a new object which is the synthesis of n other objects done by inner join
trinque: on the SQL side you're more than welcome to create new sets at will via views
mircea_popescu: aha...
jurov: i don't see why this of all is the problem, objects usually know which table/column is the field wired to
trinque: there are sets which are derived from operations on other sets
trinque: "an active_customer is one with an active_subscription and an enabled flag and..."
jurov: as long as all the values take their primary keys with them, you're fine
trinque: this is not the point
jurov: for me biggest prob was the consistency, in any nontrivial ORM situation you build the objects partially, must take care of constraints... db that defers checking constraints to commit would help, but then how do you report it to user... hairiness
trinque: and actually you're going to end up looking at SQL ASTs to figure out where a column came from
trinque: jurov: *that* was my point
trinque: that using an ORM you duplicate what the DB can already do
trinque: why not derive your JS form validator or whatever from your db constraint?
trinque: "because SQL" << and now we're back to me writing a CL RDBMS
mircea_popescu: for some reason these all sound to me like "the problems we get for having a bad db design"
mircea_popescu: if one structures his tables sanely then none of these complex requests exiswt
jurov: i see
trinque: that's certainly so, that you either pick a sane table structure, or you write terrible queries
jurov: hahaha and then is not able to detect glaring errors...because "dis doth not exist!!111"
jurov: *mpex is
trinque: and my most complex queries have typically involved converting one schema to another one time, and then throwing away the queries
jurov: !up linton_s_dawson
jurov: pls don't thank me
jurov: !up tripleslash
jurov: !up imposter
imposter: Herro
jurov: hey
wyrdmantis: mircea_popescu can i have eulora login?
mircea_popescu: wyrdmantis aite 1sec
wyrdmantis: sure
mircea_popescu: wyrdmantis http://dpaste.com/1HV52PK
assbot: dpaste: 1HV52PK ... ( http://bit.ly/1N6t8yX )
mircea_popescu: "After fifteen years in the design industry and realising the only difference between sitting in front of a computer facilitating client's requests and kneeling on the urine soaked floor of a truck stop bathroom giving five dollar blowjobs to men named Chuck, is the amount of urine on the floor, the Jumping Frog fee has evolved from insurance against post-project client suggestion to client incentive to have somebody e
mircea_popescu: lse do it."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17188 @ 0.00051288 = 8.8154 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37400 @ 0.00051482 = 19.2543 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26143 @ 0.00051213 = 13.3886 BTC [-] {2}
phf: ;;later tell wyrdmantis PMed, but not sure if you got it before timeouting. http://www.eulorum.org/OS_X works, let me know if you run into any issues
assbot: OS X - Eulorum ... ( http://bit.ly/1KTmdbo )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35040 @ 0.0005113 = 17.916 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00051573 = 17.638 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00051572 = 3.249 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22600 @ 0.00051576 = 11.6562 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: Look who got automated nao http://buttcoinfoundation.org/rogerverification/
assbot: Roger Verification Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1P1bbUR )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68650 @ 0.00051186 = 35.1392 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17050 @ 0.00051869 = 8.8437 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42907 @ 0.00052235 = 22.4125 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: lol, Reddit is nao using traditional spam to fill its content quotas https://archive.is/wQQyC
assbot: New SEO Marketing Company in San Antonio : neckbeardstories ... ( http://bit.ly/1P1ca7A )
mircea_popescu: i actually get more "web designer" spam than "seo expert" spam.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski, ben_vulpes, et al: motherfucking crapple. ~4 hrs disassembly to swap a measely inverter cable
pete_dushenski: for the unawares, what SHOULD it take ?
asciilifeform: 0.
asciilifeform: in civilized iron this is not a wear component !
pete_dushenski: l0l
pete_dushenski: 'designed by apple in california, etc.'
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: 'a1181' if anyone gives half a fuck.
pete_dushenski: for macbook air ?
asciilifeform: nah the other one.
asciilifeform: ('air' has no high voltage supply to the panel, as it is from led era)
pete_dushenski: the airbook mac then ?
asciilifeform: the whateverthefuck the a1181 is.
assbot: MacBook "Core 2 Duo" 2.4 13" (Black-08) Specs (Early 2008, MB404LL/A, MacBook4,1, A1181, 2242) @ EveryMac.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1MLwIeg )
pete_dushenski: i was 'pro' user, wouldn't touch this.
asciilifeform: i wouldn't either
pete_dushenski: wtf are you doing dinking around with one on the first place ?
asciilifeform: it is for pet
pete_dushenski: must be some kinda pet.
asciilifeform: used for many years, and will use until the chinese stop making parts
mircea_popescu: how does the cable wear anyway ? badly placed fan ?
asciilifeform: fatigue
asciilifeform: (it runs through the hinge)
mircea_popescu: fatigue from what
mircea_popescu: \it's not a fuciking bridge oh.
mircea_popescu: heh.
asciilifeform: open, close, open, close...
asciilifeform: this is the hv cable for the lamps
asciilifeform: everything about the box seemed to be ~designed~ to make repairs as miserable an affair as possible
asciilifeform: i'm kinda surprised they didn't fill the thing with glue and be done with it
jurov: you forgot trotyl
asciilifeform: ^ optional extra pheature
asciilifeform: iMine
pete_dushenski: iphn0e comes in gold casing for this precise reason
mircea_popescu: trotyl is more expensive than either the thing or the intended customer.
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-11-2015#1327375 << cook reads logs, y'know
assbot: Logged on 19-11-2015 17:59:12; pete_dushenski: even place large quantity of gold in land mines. hell, make the land mines ~entirely~ out of gold. not like the yellow stuff has any better uses.
pete_dushenski is non-plussed by sequence of 'actual history'
asciilifeform: wut
pete_dushenski: the mines before phones or phones before mines thing
mircea_popescu: in other stories of fatigue, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md7ystNmei1qziluwo1_1280.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MLyagM )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would enjoy 'hall of the singing caryatids' by v. pelevin
asciilifeform: (exists in engl even)
mircea_popescu is more into the "Brothel of intellectual lusts" take on female degradation than the flimsy political apropos take.
asciilifeform: it's more of the former than the latter
mircea_popescu: i guess no two people ever can read the same book
asciilifeform: if i ever bother to do a w4r3z scan, they could...
mircea_popescu: i never saw much in it (and in pelevin generally) other than "oh if only the holy tenets of TRUE socialism hadn't been /intinate/ or however you say that in russian
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta be thinking of some other fella
mircea_popescu: isn't this the book with lena the "poor her" whore and that schmuck doing dune "the voice" v2.0 ?
asciilifeform: voice?
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2015#1329816 << duly noted for second instalment of comic. if. when.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 17:09:00; thestringpuller: "the wrath of alfdog" << great name for a hip hop album
mircea_popescu: ;;google "the voice" in dune
gribble: Voice - Dune Wiki - Frank Herbert, David Lynch, Sandworms - Wikia: <http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Voice>; Bene Gesserit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit>; Dune (2000) - Lady Jessica using the voice against Stilgar - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDHzDOWg9gw>
mircea_popescu: anyway, i get it, an entire generation of disenfranchised young russians figure they're great chaps and the fault must be in the women empowering the old farts.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile...
mircea_popescu: whatever, i dun feel like getting into it.
pete_dushenski: too much work on the sabbath ?
mircea_popescu: too much rehash. what am i, openssl ?
pete_dushenski: http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20/iriaf-f-14s-escort-ruaf-tu-95/ << spiffy video inside.
assbot: The Aviationist » Watch this video of Iranian F-14 Tomcats escorting a Russian Tu-95 bomber during air strike in Syria ... ( http://bit.ly/1MLA15f )
mircea_popescu: do those things even do anything ?
mircea_popescu: "oh oh airstrike" "ok and ?" "we took out their outhouse!111"
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: i have nfi what you are no matter how hard i try.
mircea_popescu: here's a primer on airstrike efficiency : the brits did 7 (SEVEN!) mid-air refuellings for one of their rustbuckets to manage to drop ONE bomb on the one runway in the faulklands, "disabling" it
mircea_popescu: except the argentines fixed it that same day, and used it to land hercules for the entire duration of the conflict.
pete_dushenski isn't sure that 'bear' is supposed to do anything.
mircea_popescu: cost about 150mn to tear down (without counting amortisation and hr costs) and about 18k to fix.
pete_dushenski: that's backasswards terrorism
mircea_popescu: well, the ~\$65 in box cutters the terrorists spent did bring down a 8-10bn piece of real estate.
pete_dushenski: ;;calc 9000000000/65
gribble: 138461538.462
pete_dushenski: ^healthy roi, that.
pete_dushenski: healthy *multiple
pete_dushenski: vs.
pete_dushenski: ;;calc 18000/150000000
gribble: 0.00012
pete_dushenski: one of these aggressors has too much money in their pockets, while the other knows full well the value of a dollar.
mircea_popescu: either that or possibly doesn't give a shit about caryatids.
mircea_popescu: defo one or the other.
mircea_popescu: supposedly (ro) intinate = (en) defiled, but im not too happy to it. tina is a derrogative for earth, soil. it's expected to be barren, powdery (but noit outright sand) and in generaly the equivalent of dirt.
mircea_popescu: intina is a verb, to en-dirt-y.
assbot: Redirect Notice ... ( http://bit.ly/1N70qhw )
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1N70tKj )
mircea_popescu: i had a great pic up lemme see if i can ever find anything again in this smoldering pile of everything that's my blog
mircea_popescu: back in a week.
asciilifeform wonders if mircea_popescu read the book in a language he actually speaks
mircea_popescu: i think i read it in french