90900+ entries in 0.056s
mircea_popescu: maybe i really don't want
to look at it as a succession of numbers. why, because i'm such a
troglodyte ?
mircea_popescu: is it ~so wrong~
to want
to have either literal or graphical display for a csv, as an option ?
mircea_popescu: e
to be able
to not have
to plot "< awk -F, '/Bitterbean/ {print $3,$5}'
testall.csv" using 1:2
t "Better Bitterbean" w p pt 1, \"
mircea_popescu: but
there;s a difference between graphical = "rounded corners" (in
the
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1821998 sense of
that
term, "One of
the motivations for
the changes is
to enable animations and
transitions. If you use gtk_style_context_save/restore in your draw() function,
that prevents GTK+ from keeping
the state
that is needed
to support animations; so you should avoid it when you can.") and graphical = "mp would lik
☝︎ ben_vulpes: i don't really see
the point
to importing rounded corners into republican
tooling
mircea_popescu: /************* DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW
THIS LINE ! **************/
mircea_popescu has seen
the "debug" "expert" modes on every browser, holy shit...
mircea_popescu: do you have any idea what a ~proper~ model for javascript would be worth in productivity
terms ?
ben_vulpes: i'm amenable
to dom as presentation model, but abhor
the browser scripting language and
the cpp hydras
that render
the html/css/jsoup.
that said if we cut "teh modern webb!" off entirely, i'll hafta bifurcate my workbench.
ben_vulpes: implementing
the DOM and all of
the california complexity doesn't mesh neatly with
the
text rendering already extant. i use emacs as wm around browser and some other
things (not many other
things, really, but 'modern' dom-o-tron is sadly yet central
to $work), for
the expediency of my workbench having a single scriptinglang
to move windows around, split whole monitor and arrange for specific workflows...
mircea_popescu: best definition of what a cult is, incidentally. "why was
this cut
there specifically ?" "i dunno."
that's it,
that's a cult. can't answer as
to why was something cut where it was.
mircea_popescu: understand, i'm not proposing
the one
tru way here. but i do want
to know why
the cuts are made, if made. because otherwise wtf.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so
then, if no builtin browser, why have emacs as wm at all.
ben_vulpes: eww,
the builtin browser is sorta step-up from lynx/links: no js, but can do images/svgs with
the appropriate libs linked against
mircea_popescu: if emacs is
the wm,
then it'd better a) rid me of browser and b) be capable of previewing for me
the graph / naked slut / we i'm about
to put on
trilema, both BEFORE uploading and as part of
the final page preview.
mircea_popescu: of course, proceeding blindly and randomly from
the wrong edge etc. but
the problem is obvious enough even cumshots on cumshothub notice it.
mircea_popescu: which is why
the idiots make feeble efforts
to reunite
them, as recently lulzed at wrt unity, a few days ago
mircea_popescu: you need
these
two piles of idiocy separate like you need a penis for peeing and another penis for also peeing.
mircea_popescu: leaving
this briefly aside, consider
the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack.
there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called
tabs).
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i would very much support a lot of emacs effort if it gets one rid of having
to ~also~ support x11 ; and vice-versa. for instance.
phf: there are layers and layers of cruft, some
things
that we haven't mentioned but
that's implicitly part of
the conversation. should
there be x11, should emacs be
the first
thing
that linux boots and nothing else, etc.
mircea_popescu: there's good reason
to equate os and code editor, incidentally. as
the ~fundamental~ job of an operating system is
to
transform machine failures into debug sessions.
mircea_popescu: as far as i can
tell, we've not yet said "emacs is really not
the name we give
the
tmsr-os"
mircea_popescu: consider
the slime/elisp/c discussion again. how much of an os is
this emacs going
to be ?
mircea_popescu: people who expect
to run it atop musl as opposed
to atop gnarl,
that's very much who.
phf: but
the first one is about explicitly maintaining multiple contexts,
the other one is a
technical detail (at
the end of
the day who cares
that emacs is
the one doing
the management?)
phf: there's
two parallel discussions
though,
the
technical should
there be support for preemptive execution in whatever substrate (elisp virtual machine, linux, etc.) and
the ux should
the system give you ability
to maintain multiple contexts
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect it might be more
than "an infinite loop in sbcl,
to not hose emacs" ; for instance, it might include & behaviour.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 18:52 mircea_popescu can definitely see
the "i do not expect my
terminal
to do background
tasks,
that's what
the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
mircea_popescu: phf
trying
to whittle down
the "ide" vs "wm" dispute. multithreading is a major point here.
phf: mircea_popescu: do you mean should
the editor perform all kinds of functions in parallel?
mircea_popescu: so
to beat
this horse : is multitasking a desired feature, actually ?
phf: asciilifeform: back
then i had slightly different concerns, nor did i build anything
that wasn't already built.
the whole
thing compiles with djgpp, clisp is also available. bulk of
the code i wrote was either common lisp by way of clisp or allegro "games" and visual hacks and such
phf: emacs, in dos flavor and in general, has a support for
transliteration in both input and output, so you can even edit orc language with some minor discomfort
trinque: possible I'd be entirely comfortable most days in a DOS + emacs, provided
the
term was big enough
mircea_popescu can definitely see
the "i do not expect my
terminal
to do background
tasks,
that's what
the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"
☟︎ ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also use it as wm; will endure
the occasional freeze-ups because if emacs has died well
then
the whole machine's utility
to me has gone
to epsilon anyways
mircea_popescu: ie, is it fine
to say "you wanna chat, use gossipd ; you wanna program, use emacs" ?
mircea_popescu: but
this yes, exposes a major question
that may help. is emacs "ide" ? or is emacs "wm" ?
mircea_popescu: the honest
truth of
the matter is
that we don't even know what we want yet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except for
the part where i keep putting uniturds in all
the
time, persian, chinese, whatever.
mircea_popescu: moreover, and
this is
the very heart and soul of
this here republic, one who discusses his problems acquires
the
two magical
things : solutions ; and supporters. whereas one who
toils in unknown "privacy" produces mcclims and such sad
things.
mircea_popescu: myeah. and maybe
the discussion is both a little premature and a little
touching raw nerve ; but nevertheless
the progress on packaging, first ave1 with musl, coming up
trinque cuntoo, etc etc WILL lead
to it.
phf: well,
that's what's in everyone's workshop, piles and piles of hacks
mircea_popescu: because on
the strength of "networking code C/elisp,
that's required
to use e.g. slime" how about you lot unearth
the old borland c ide and use
that and be happy.
phf: networking code C/elisp,
that's required
to use e.g. slime
phf: 19 is '98
technology, missing unicode, definitely missing ssl, i'm not sure how much networking code is
there, etc. etc.
mircea_popescu: im not sure why you'd
think
that ; but not
the end of
the world.
phf: mircea_popescu: see if i
think
that version secretly reveals how how many of
the comforts of "modern" emacs we want
to sacrifice, and likewise nails down
the wants
mircea_popescu: it's all piles upon piles of hacks by "please, god, mom, someone, send someone who knows what shit is
to beat me up for all
this." kiddos crying for dad.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't even care so much about
that, because of
the well ilustrated, here and everywhere else, history of idiots involvement.
mircea_popescu: phf nah,
this is a dumb approach. nevermind "what version", first and foremost, "what do we want here"
phf: well, i was hoping
this conversation will steer
towards which version we should go with. i'd love
to
try bringing 19 up
to date, but i'm afraid
the result of
that effort will be
that asciilifeform and
trinque will just keep using own version on workshop. further into future we move,
the gnarlier
the code gets (i
think i pasted 10x size increases with every new emacs release)
mircea_popescu: well,
the soviets seem
tho be inclined
to
think
that's you.
phf: mircea_popescu: it's not, but as
the mail
trinque linked points out "the right solution requires a significant overhaul by someone with expertise in emacs internal"
mircea_popescu: ftr, i don't believe
this "save object code"
thing is handled correctly.
phf: asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last
time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out.
trinque just said
that
the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably
that works
☟︎ phf: at some point
the implementation was reworked, i was certain
that was 25, but
trinque just said
that he has a 24 version
phf: emacs does
the same
thing, except in order
to do image dump it used some internal glibc (!!!) hack
phf: well, lisp machines have
this concept of loading code into memory and
then dumping
the memory image for a fast restart later
phf: yeah, i'm slow right now, but i'll get
there
phf: mircea_popescu:
the emacs headache on musl
that asciilifeform mentioned
phf: that headache essentially enforces an emacs 25
though
trinque: yeah,
there's patches
to be had
though