log☇︎
78200+ entries in 0.552s
mircea_popescu: well this immediately is problematic, because a cycle could be claimed to have been closed more than one way, is the point.
asciilifeform: and close a cycle.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for the two paths to begin to exist, someone has to take a shit in the graph
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so your contention here is that it is not possible to link a to g through a (b..f) set of patches such that (b..f) is a cycle and that two different paths exist from g to a ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not making a positive argument here, and haven't throughout. just trying to examine this thing.
asciilifeform: this also would give mircea_popescu the thing he asked for, which was a litmus that'd let him reject a cycle-creating patch immediately from his light cone, before it can get into his vtron and cause headache. and that is, 'no patch may have a descendant that is also an antecedent of itself or of an earlier-blocktimed patch.'
asciilifeform: but in re: 'timing issue', we had a thread where i brought up 'two(+) d00dz form a cycle, who do we negrate' and specifically stated that deedbot-for-vpatches is necessary, and that any two+ folx who insist on issuing patches into same blocktime, and end up being part of a loop, are ~both~ idiots/wreckers
asciilifeform: i.e. a thing that can only exist if ~everyone~ has been catastrophically lazy/retarded for a very long time.
asciilifeform: the valid presses in the given graph are: a; a->b; a->b->f; a->b->c; a->b->c->d; a->b->c->d->g; and a->b->c->d->e.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i drew the graph, not seeing what is meant in your example: what means 'now both g->d->e->f->b->a and g->d->c->b->a are valid presses' ?
mircea_popescu: (similarly, from a different pov - does this scheme open up cycle-negrate-arbutrage whereby an attacker could go around closing cycles and hoping we misidentify the culprit because of timing issues ?)
mircea_popescu: suppose d->c and d->e occured within a second.
mircea_popescu: a is a genesis ; b is built on a ; c is built on b ; d is built on c ; e is built on d ; f is built on b ; g is built on d. now both g->d->e->f->b->a and g->d->c->b->a are valid presses.
mircea_popescu: what is required to identify a cycle creator ?
asciilifeform: the creator of a cycle is in all cases identifiable. kick his teeth in, negrate.
mircea_popescu: yeah it does add quite a bit of unwanted complexity doesn't it.
asciilifeform: instead of a very simple mapping.
asciilifeform: and now you have a monstrous abortion that has to be 'self' aware
mircea_popescu: now whether this is actually a good idea is unclear.
mircea_popescu: if all patches are required to change a comment line in all files they touch, so that it contains the hash of that patch's intended antecessor ; then it is no longer possible to build cycles without deliberately hash-mining for them (because to close the cycle you will have to at one point claim as anterior an ulterior item).
asciilifeform: because cycles in vflow are a Bad Thing and under no conceivable circumstances good ?
mircea_popescu: specifically whether it shouldn't include a comment requirement as above.
asciilifeform: i posted this as a litmus test of sorts, for vtrons.
mircea_popescu: they do come in a definite order, yes ?
asciilifeform: vpatches are not applied 'onto a patch'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there isn't a 'the patch'
asciilifeform: but -- and i'd rather that mircea_popescu do this in his head -- you can make a 'munchausen' where both steps (or however many, it can be as long as you like) reference the genesis.
mircea_popescu: suppose we had a rule stating that "all patches must include as a comment the patch upon they are to be applied" ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: yes. so what started all of this in my head, i been trying to lead like three times with "but the problem is :" - we may have a very bitcoin block-esque problem on our hands. specifically, the fact that the hash of a block doth not include the intended hash of its antecessor opens up to a problem we needn't be open to.
asciilifeform: take a guess
mircea_popescu: well, you just did my a->b b->a in three elements of which one is spurious after claiming a->b b->a is not it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a v set consisting solely of genesis is valid
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 17:23 trinque trying to wrap brain around whether this is a failure mode or universally true, but will have to implement tail recursion optimization in his own head first
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587182 << speaking of this, here's a question for the eager : a diophantine equation is a multivariate polynomial, something like ax+by^2 = 0. the question is : given an arbitrary finite set of known-good equations, can you use recursion to decide whether an arbitrary equation in the same variables is good (has integer solution) or no good ? ☝︎☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: all this would have been avoided if a) people correctly observed that roy fielding is fundamentally incapable of having ideas, through not being in the wot.
asciilifeform: aite. gimme a few min.
asciilifeform: a must exist, yes
mircea_popescu: so let's examine this theoretically. in order to make c, you must have a's hash, yes ?
asciilifeform: and it is trivial to make, if mircea_popescu really wants, i can post an example set , with a toy key, and he can hang his vtron.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 12:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589083 << the shortest cycle possible in v (assuming that all of the patches are valid, that is, actually produce the hashes they indicate as descendants, as outputted by gnudiff, as opposed to a hand-sewn crapolade which does not) is a->b->a. this happens if you have a patch 'c' that has 'b' as antecedent but 'a' as descendant. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: davout this goes eerily with a http://trilema.com/2016/how-the-other-half-lives-a-very-seriously-funny-article/#selection-1023.253-1023.409 style of programming
davout: god, whoever came up with HATEOAS deserves a bullet in the head
mircea_popescu: "oh light of the heavens, divine dove, bring me a glass of water" "honey, i lost you at dove. you want an omlet ?"
mircea_popescu: from context looks like it's prolly worth ~sergeant in iraq. which is not altogether a bad estimation of respective valor.
mircea_popescu: three stars epaulettes as seen in 2nd pic would conventionally indicate a us lieutenant-general, which is paid as an O[fficer]-9, 2nd highest.
mircea_popescu: reviewing the travail d'americain the sysadmin puts in, it should come at no surprise that the us last won a war when the europeans ran the effort for them,\
mircea_popescu just checked, o-9 pay grade is from 14.5k to 18k A MONTH. it is literally a better deal to be an entry level sysadmin working in pasadena than a lieutenant-general working in baghdad. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i wonder if there's going to also be a 4th.
mircea_popescu: "In a new photo report purportedly released by the Islamic State, an ISIS suicide car bomber attacks Iraqi forces in the Intisar neighborhood of east Mosul, Iraq. The photo report was released on ISIS terrorist channels on December 22."
mircea_popescu: in further news nobody cares about, "4 million letters of 'empathy, support' dropped on Mosul". this thing, which was a) going to be a war that b) was going to take two weeks twelve weeks ago (and then a month, and then two, and here we are) has now degenerated in a fucking spam offensive. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ? ☟︎
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588327 <<< guy finds a PKI on the floor, runs to show it to all the other retards... ☝︎
davout: asciilifeform: has to be 3 times in a row iirc
asciilifeform: think simply of the chess rule, that any player whk recreates a board position that existed at ANY previous point in the game -- forfeits.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 05:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589025 << it's not even clear to me this is actually possible to do. the closing element has to actually break a hash.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589055 << nope. making a cycle is trivial. ☝︎
mod6: this next round of refactoring for this might be some work, but in the end, i aught to write a bunch of these tests into automated ones.
mod6: agreed. we're getting there one bit at a time.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it may feel a bit tedious/stupid/etc to keep workign these basics, but it'll pay off in time
mod6: yea, a solid test.
mircea_popescu: but the idea was, put just alf in wot, cut a seal midway, see what happens.
mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah, if it's a (2 sigs) -> b(2 sigs) -> c(1 sig) -> d(2 sigs again) then it's a valid press.
mircea_popescu: ie, if someone can close a cycle, it's not time to negrate, it's time to get a better hash.
mod6: yeah, if im in the wot too, and I have a valid sig to that one, then it's ok.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589025 << it's not even clear to me this is actually possible to do. the closing element has to actually break a hash. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:19 mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:49 mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:41 phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
mircea_popescu checks, the only time i even said the word it was used as a noun.
asciilifeform: if they are ~all~ lolcats, you simply have a null flow.
asciilifeform: i will rephrase again for clarity: for so long as you have 1 pubkey, which was used to make 1 seal, and that seal is for one, single patch, your only one, a genesis, you can display a flow. and literally every other file in .seals, .wot, .patches can be a lolcat.
mod6: also, as a note, i'll leave the anti-fuzz change in this new version -- it seems ~more~ correct than previous impl.
mod6: not 100% positive, but I seem to recall trying this once. i think my thing broke with a 'cyclic graph!' or something
asciilifeform: it is the ~only~ must-die condition for a vtron.
mod6: fwiw, i believe i've even tested this once by creating a special patch that pointed to an earlier patch in the flow.
asciilifeform: it is impossible to operate correctly on a cyclical vflow.
asciilifeform: that is if it finds a graph cycle.
asciilifeform: there is only 1 case where a vtron ~must~ barf
mod6: correct. now you get an 'a->b->c->d'
mod6: so back to the model: a->b->c->d if I remove 'c', all that should show up in the flow is 'a->b' and all that is pressable is 'a->b', should never attempt to even press 'a->b->d'
asciilifeform: if this orphans a tree branch, it should simply fall off
asciilifeform: when you ask a vtron to press, it has to be for something that is in the flow
phf: asciilifeform: mine removes some of the links where dependency is already demonstrated by other means. if you have a->b->c and a->c you can't press c without pressing b also
asciilifeform: it is less hairy if you use my algo, where every single patch, when deciding if it gets into the flow, has to trace descent to a genesis, unbrokenly
mod6: or to go back to mr. p.'s example: a->b->c->d all signed by x, if i remove 'c', then the flow should read: a->b
mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present? ☟︎
mod6: asciilifeform: im having a hard time following you. let's try to keep this to something i can grok.
asciilifeform: a vtron that displays descendants for a patch that has an antecedent hash that corresponds to no patch, or does the same for any of its apparent children, is incorrect
mod6: that's the same as saying : mod6@gentoo ~/sandbox-v $ ./v.pl a asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch
asciilifeform: mod6: think for a minute: an orhpaned patch has no descendants.
phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is ☟︎
asciilifeform: i am still waiting for something like a logical argument for why patch fuzz existed.
mod6: well, i suspect that this is a different problem really.
mircea_popescu: anyway, idlewords guy is pretty much spot on as to how exactly silicon valley / "vc" etc world goes away. "Ray Kurzweil, who believes he will never die, has been a Google employee for several years now and is presumably working on that problem. There are a lot of people in Silicon Valley working on truly crazy projects under the cover of money." this is pretty much it, the byzantines found their way towards byzantinism, will
mod6: aha, ok. will do. if i'd venture a guess, we'll see the exact same result.
mod6: yah, so, in this: a->b->c->d ; I basically just got rid of 'c', and then tried to press a->b->d (all signed by x) and it does fail. was this what we were trying to achieve? If not, i'll do another test np.
mircea_popescu: now then, leaving aside the offensive inferiority complex women/nonwhites have towards white males : the guy has a point (mit media lab, which apparently got new leadership, a little smarter - and a little less female - being where ethereum retardation is hatched). the jwz is by now radioactive, a bunch of kids who can't subdue a girl their age, let alone a herd of adult women, want things to be about how it's ok to go around
mircea_popescu: Joi Ito, who runs the MIT Media Lab, said a wonderful thing in a recent conversation with President Obama: "This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it's been a predominantly male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-f
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ok this is great. "since hyperintelligence is a real threat any entity which develops hyperintelligence would be so taken with this threat that it would be forced to spend all its time filling obscure wikis with bad fanfic to prepare the other intelligences to deal with the singularity. you know, much like that bizarre faggot."