tmsr - Search: i

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mircea_popescu: no i mean while you're not there.

mod6: So I have made a couple small changes to my V99995, and have put together an output trace of what we were seeing with V99995 and what we now see with the changes made in a possible V99994 version. Review of this would be nice to validate that the behavior is correct: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt

asciilifeform: gedankenexperiment. say i have a billion signed texts, from all over the galaxy, and also a number of keys, can i mechanically query 'documents signed by all of mircea_popescu's known subserviant keys' ? is the notion that anyone trying to do this is by definition up to no good ?

mircea_popescu: well cuz i can say so. "key x is my key".

mircea_popescu: anyway. i have a perfectly serviceable way to harden keys for the record. it's just not ~standardized~, and it's unclear it should be.

mircea_popescu: i suspect we'll get to it.

asciilifeform: all of the extant vtrons, i will point out, run on linux, which is a monstrous horror of the deep that no one in my wot has signed, ditto python, perl, etc.

mircea_popescu: i udn see it.

asciilifeform: but what is the best way to make permanent record that ' mircea_popescu's i-found-this-in-back-of-desk-drawer ' key is subservient strictly to ' mircea_popescu royal key ' ?

asciilifeform: and there are bound to be mistakes, ranging from the harmless lul to the utter calamity, 'oops i used my 'royal alchemist' stamp instead of 'dildolathe operator by appointment to Her Majesty' stamp'

asciilifeform: asciilifeform's grandfather had a gigantic tray of rubber stamps, of what must have been a dozen different shapes, and when signing a document would first stamp it with the rubber that corresponded to the imperial role in which the signing was to take place. this was orc sop. and i suppose the concept is doomed to stick around.

phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)

mircea_popescu: i'm just saying - there's nothing lost here. can emulate naked pastebin in v style np.

mircea_popescu: phf yes, in principle. in practice i expect "centralizing" rebasing vpatches to happen all the time to prune trees of their noncontroversial joints.

asciilifeform: phf: i stabbed at the problem of formalizing a way to specify what it is you actually commit to when signing a patch. it was the 'vectorized' thing, and everybody barfed.

a111: Logged on 2016-02-20 22:45 phf: "i, ordained computron mircea lifeform, in the year of our republic 1932, having devoted three months to the verification of checksums, with my heart pure and my press clean, sit down to transcribe vee patch ascii_limits_hack, signed by the illustrious asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes and all saints."

phf: but the reason i made those statements yesterday is because i think that like saying things in log is an opportunity to be corrected, so does posting a vpatch, it could be a learning experience. instead the mindset seems to be http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-20#1411214 ☝︎

phf: mircea_popescu: i misremembered, because later V in my mind merged with gossipd (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376781) ☝︎

asciilifeform: and also from a comment by mircea_popescu that went something like 'i must be able to put finger on a line of code and get names'

a111: Logged on 2015-09-12 20:28 mircea_popescu: which... you know, i slept on this, and it occurs to me that ACTUAL MATHEMATICS might be the perfect thing to implement over V.

a111: Logged on 2015-08-31 14:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-08-2015#1257082 << i loathe python per se. but the only realistic alternative was perl. (my original attempts at 'v' were in awk/sed, and did not work very well)

a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 04:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in somewhat related nyooz, i've been experimenting with what for now i call 'v' - a very dumb 'versioner' that i've been writing, which eats solely 0) pgp keys 1) patches 2) signatures for same, many-to-many mapping of (2) to (1)

a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 04:42 asciilifeform: also the continuity of identity. if, for example, my patches at some point go from tiny to elephantine, from single-purpose to 'omnibus', from deadly-simple to 'wtf is that' - folks are to presume that i have been finally killed and key is in hands of hitler. and should then rate accordingly.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 17:46 phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)

asciilifeform: then i have monumentally nfi

asciilifeform: ok i'ma guess 'a,s,l?' or similar

asciilifeform: i meant, which bot

asciilifeform: now this i escaped.

mircea_popescu: on the other hand i could readily notice the havoc this had wrought upon her poor brain.

phf: i still remember how my hired driver crossed the state line and had to speak a very broken english with the locals to ask for directions

asciilifeform: afaik esperantism was one of those crackpotteries utterly thermonuked by ww1, so i have nfi where one would even begin to look for remnants.

mircea_popescu: but w/e, maybe my very dim view of "scholarship" in the field is entirely unwarranted, i'm just a meadhater and library contains "a river of gold", to quote obama.

asciilifeform: which is why i'd like to see ~how~ they were fucked, there has to be some remaining crater to look at

mircea_popescu: natural language dictionaries are usually in the 100k symbols range ; however natural languages altogether are very large graphs, and i'd venture in the yottabyte range.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i was specifically curious re what it was that the esperantist ~children~ spoke. the resultant creole, not the original 'megalomaniacal engineer' item.

phf: well, asciilifeform's reaction to it is consistent to his perspective on conlangs, so i learned something

mircea_popescu: i'm not terribly unhappy with the analogy.

phf: i'm not here to ~defend~ common lisp, i made an analogy that didn't stick

phf: asciilifeform: last time i said that cons structures and sequences solve two entirely unrelated problems. cons specifically is a fundamental memory management abstraction for a von neumann machine (it solves the insert problem), so has its own set of operations that can predictable performance and behavioral characteristic.

asciilifeform: but i have nfi why to get attached to dross and nonorthogonal crapolade.

asciilifeform: i can definitely see the pov of, e.g., lisp2ists

phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :) ☟︎

phf: asciilifeform: we had this thread, and i had an answer for you that you didn't like

phf: another take on this might be common lisp vs scheme. cl was standardized after the fact, existed and evolved on lisp machines. i'm looking at mit's cadr at the moment, and at a certain point you have maclisp, interlisp, zetalisp and "common lisp" all coexisting on the same machine, 10 years before the standard was written. scheme on the other hand was esparantoed for a purpose. the result is that as you move closer to speaking common

asciilifeform: same place as 'play go' robot (btw afaik 0 pro games since sedol... as i predicted)

asciilifeform: i hate to distract mircea_popescu from a good gloat re the impotence of engineer, but i'd like to see where he cuts the subj : viable conlang is impossible because no one remotely understands meat well enough? or, useless, even if it were made ? ... or both ?

mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea why the postmenopausal worldview is even tolerated by actual engineers ; if i thought myself one i'd actually spend half my time having people a la "we'll make a language" whipped at the public stake

asciilifeform: i'll point out that there is also an 'if it prospers, none dare call it treason' effect going on. modern hebrew, for instance, is nearly as much a conlang as esperanto.

asciilifeform: i still wonder about the supposed 4 mil or how many esperantists, who taught their children, etc. was it disinfo ? and if not, where did they go ?

asciilifeform: do i even want to know

asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i have sincerely nfi what is emin or what is an sgx

asciilifeform: i have some dark rumble in my gut associated with xfs, possibly from mid-2000s

mircea_popescu: whatever, i guess you also get some injection protection. hurr.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << can this be rewritten ? not that we're liable to have over 4bn txn at any point, but more of the principle of the thing "fuck you and your fucking magic numbers. if i run 64bit processors i'll run 64bit disks also motherfuckers!" ☝︎

mircea_popescu: intuitively though i think blocks should be stored by height.

mircea_popescu: unless you want to store them by hash, in which case of course it's at most 65 chars, though because of difficulty i expect it should be made 40 or less

trinque: ben_vulpes: wooo! I'll test that soon as I have coffee in hand.

ben_vulpes: and yes, phf, when i am not exhausted i will also produce a genesis.

ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, trinque, phf, mircea_popescu, and anyone else tracking vtronic gnashing: i dusted off and rewrote my cl V implementation. i'll follow up sometime tomorrow with more demo usage, and a more robust demonstration of wot-variant pressing. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/juTpM/?raw=true

ben_vulpes: jurov: sql just falls out of "i shall make tmsr a block explorer", no more, no less.

mircea_popescu: "i ended up with a woman in my bed i don't know." "how ?"

ben_vulpes: i expect it to be a royal pain to run down "which patch is missing sigs and breaking the flow from genesis to whatever"

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588010 << i can't grok what the dispute is here. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:09 mircea_popescu: but i can see why this is practically obnoxious.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:59 phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate

mircea_popescu: barely-compiling c isn't good enough for us. oh, no, mommy i need my special asm skirt for THIS sql stuff!

ben_vulpes: it's a very special haskellian snowflake that makes it so i don't have to think about that so nyah

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i'm going to need that gas mask

mircea_popescu: which part am i breaking ?

mircea_popescu: in practice i'm in two waters about it, wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing catches fire.

mircea_popescu: (after some early experimentation, i confess)

mircea_popescu: obv you can't store infinite data in finite hard drive, i came to terms with that

ben_vulpes: because every open source anything i've ever touched has failed in precisely these sorts of extreme use cases

ben_vulpes: knowing nothing about fsen, i doubt even reiser can handle infinite symlinks.

ben_vulpes: sure yeah, i remember the design pretty well

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586531 << i don't recall the proposed tests, actually. i mulled on this for a bit, am reluctant to try any sort of implementation until i finish the sqlator which a) is probably just sunk cost fallacy rearing its head, as i've done not much there but design the schema and prep a massive ingest job and b) has now been bumped down my todo list *again* in favor of vtronic ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:49 phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587935 << upon review of mine, it simply sucked horrendously and i suspect that i knew at some level at the time. ☝︎

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah i figured, it's why he has it now

asciilifeform: fwiw i deliberately did not polish my vtron, wajted to give folx a turn in the sun

mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, i suppose it's entirely possible that if a years-made-wiser satoshi tried to release bitcoin, it'd have been done in the manner of how we did vtrons not in the manner of how he did bitcoin, ie, "here's what should happen - anyone who wants to participate make one"

mircea_popescu: i suppose it's possible that as technology matures it goes from this stage to "yawn, whatever, just use the cannonical version". so there's possibly that path there.

mircea_popescu: this opposition may be less categorical than it seems here, and may evolve in time, but i suspect even if a continuous function it'll never be convex.

mircea_popescu: i perceive no benefit to, eg, getting everyone to use mod6's or alf's or anyone else's v implementation, as opposed to the present situation ; just as i perceive no advantage to getting everyone to make "his own" trb.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:47 phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587923 << i am fwiw satisfied that it's qutie mroe than this : vs aren't on btcbase because they don't fundamentally belong on btcbase, because unlike public trb "we all use this" they're private "my girl will dance the way ~i~ want her to dance and stfu". there's a much more limited set of rules re what vtrons should do ; than re what trbs should do. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:44 asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587908 << heh! i think a lot of "well everyone knows this" is going on wrt v ; owing to its deliberately-variant, homebrew nature. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: i was saying "this is working correctly", did it end up reading the opposite ?

mircea_popescu: mod6 i don't get what http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587851 is saying ? it links to a congratulatory message back in 2015 ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:15 mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.

mod6: i mean, we could do it that way... where the printable flow tells you which do not have sigs, but then impl-wise, they must be two different lists as to not inadvertantly press out a WILD vpatch. that, or re-check the flow at press time.

mod6: ben_vulpes: i actually love that feature.

asciilifeform: i am failing to discern what, if anything, is in dispute here, so i will bbl. possibly it will be more evident from the log.

mod6: because why would i want gavin's vpatch stuck in the middle of my flow, if he's not in my wot?

asciilifeform: the only time a vtron must hard-fail, is when it is impossible for it to operate in finite time, i.e. the case where it detects a graph cycle.

mod6: but i apologize, and see that this is the wrong way. and there is a better way.

mod6: this is why they exist in the first place, these WILD vpatches, because my impl wasn't written with this in mind. i was more written with the idea that a guy would place things in .wot/.seals/patches by hand and would know what is what.

ben_vulpes: i think this is 'implementation detail'.

mod6: i thought that you just wanted to it to be left out of any possible flow.