asciilifeform: davout: definitionally not, bitcoin has marvels such as being able to annihilate a coinbase from tx index using a (local! nobody but your node has to see it) reorg.

asciilifeform: simply by not catering to the patently idiotic expectation of being able to spend the output of a tx that hasn't been mined yet.

asciilifeform: and yes that means they have to live in a block, that you're reasonably sure won't be orphaned.

asciilifeform: davout: right ! want to make a tx ? know the indices of the outputs you're using.

asciilifeform: ^ likewise it is unclear to me why to even have a merkle tree, and not hash the tx one after another. but that's a separate thread.

asciilifeform: with the difference being, that you can ONLY refer to a position in an existing block, and never to a tx hash.

asciilifeform: you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin

asciilifeform: unfortunately , per grandfather's pistol , a tx ~in~ a block can spend the output of another, in same block; so verification of block tx is O(N^2) but the N is the count of tx in the block.

asciilifeform: trb, i will note, already will not relay any attempt to spend anything not already in a block.

asciilifeform: if you had to write, e.g., (91722,1,1) instead of (e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468, 1) to spend an output -- none of this would be a thing.

asciilifeform: it's a textbook mircea_popescuan tv-raft. 'can't fix the problem, That Would Be Wrong, have a raft made of your tv to float on;

asciilifeform: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki << found it earlier, prior to thread, but the lulzy bit is that their 'solution' is not a solution

asciilifeform: so a prb user can be fucked during sync, so long as the fuckblock fed to him isn't numbered 91842 or 91880 ...

asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=0.10.0rc4#1670 << this is pretty great, prb turns 91842/91880 into a special case !

asciilifeform: what's a bezzle if not a sky held up by invisible column of farts and nobody-would-think-of-plane-as-rocket.

asciilifeform: btw this thread is unpleasantly reminiscent of , e.g., asciilifeform's conversations with his elderly parents , re thebezzle. 'look outside, sky not fallen, not moved a centimetre, you idiot'

asciilifeform: ^ this is a question that can be answered exactly , using a patched trb

asciilifeform: you just have a 'i can't believe it's not bitcoin' rather than bitcoin.

asciilifeform: so you end up with a parentless tx in the index.

asciilifeform: aha, the first tx in a block

asciilifeform: (will not accept a block where they are spent)

asciilifeform: it would instead manifest as one or more chains of tx that a trb node -- a particular one, that saw the particular magic orphan -- mysteriously does not want to spend the outputs of.

asciilifeform: iirc ben_vulpes set up a similar experiment ( lan miner ) a month or so ago, but i dun recall what came of it ☟︎

asciilifeform: probably will have to replicate it on a toy planet.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an absence, not a presence, of code, how do i point to an absence ?

asciilifeform: now for the practical consequence. what this means, as far as i can tell, is that there can exist -- may already exist -- chains of tx in trb, that cannot be walked back to a coinbase.

asciilifeform: so nobody needs to introduce a double-spend for this horror to work.

asciilifeform: trb as it exists , permits a new tx having same hash as old, so long as old one was spent.

asciilifeform: there are no doublespends involved, just a massive bomb

asciilifeform: it's a brand-new, legit coinbase, with same hash. entirely permitted.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: revisiting the boojum: block 500,000 has coinbase B. it was spent, many cities are built on the outputs, time passes, world forgets. yeas later, dr. evil mines a block ~600,000~ , now again having B. ( he does not need to know any keys for this, can just copy the tx. ) then he sets his minetron to start again from 599,999. succeeds in orphaning block 600,000 . reorg fires. B now gets removed from the index db ! and a

asciilifeform: another tickle : what'll happen if someone were to mine a block that 1) has a coinbase equal to one of these magical coinbases + 2 ) spends same ?

asciilifeform: is there even a consistent way to calculate it ?

asciilifeform: say i walk in with a tx that spends the output of d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599

asciilifeform: even the comment on ln 756-7 is nonsensical, 'This is only possible if this transaction was completely spent, so erasing it would be a no-op anway.' in what universe is erasing the ancestor of a valid tx a 'no-op' ?

asciilifeform: ^ do you see a check for previous existence here, mircea_popescu ? because i don't...

asciilifeform: 500,001 contains a tx T1, that spent B.

asciilifeform: a reorg will remove the overwritten tx entirely

asciilifeform: sooo per my reckoning, you can have sane-trb-indexer, but now every tx gotta have a field for 'was replaced?' -- and if bit is set, indexer goes and looks at the collision table, the previous lookup now 'didn't count'

asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me that trb ever... worked, in the customary sense of the word. what, for instance, happens if you actually carry out the -- entirely legal per all known btctrons -- replacement of a ~spent~ coinbase tx ?

asciilifeform: it isn't ever a solution, to anything !

asciilifeform: will become a detectable problem somewhere around 128b's worth. also quite likely long past expiration date of planet3.

asciilifeform: there's 1 way -- if you send in an anything that collides with a previous ANYTHING, you are told to fuck off.

asciilifeform: the way i read ln. 968, miners TODAY are apparently more than welcome to create a duplicate coinbase, so long as it is a dupe of a ~spent~ coinbase.

asciilifeform: the 'unless spent' is riotously idiotic, it means that a txid does NOT, even today, guarantee to uniquely identify a tx.

asciilifeform: if you reject incoming tx (in a block , in particular) that overwrites old 'spent' one, you have broken the pistol.

asciilifeform: so if you make a 'tx that has same hash as ANY known tx to date which != this tx' you have broken the pistol, forked from the old semantics.

asciilifeform: and the 'unless those are already completely spent' thing substantially complicates, if not prevents, a sane indexing scheme

asciilifeform: this is not an original discovery, there's a magic case for it in trb

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was a name for this, 'kitchen intellectuals' ☟︎

asciilifeform: cabs. and at one point worked in dire shitholes of various descriptions. but what point is there describing any of it, mircea_popescu will still insist that 'none of it describes the Actual anthill, you gotta have a private intel agency of 10,001 cutthroat sluts to know Reality!11'

asciilifeform: in other noose : https://archive.is/rJh3G >> march 14: 'Amazon has removed three books that deny the Holocaust ... Robert Rozett, a senior official at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official memorial to Holocaust victims, wrote to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos last month calling for immediate action specifically regarding the three books. Rozett calls the move a “positive first step” which shows Amazon listens to Jewish groups that protest Amaz

asciilifeform still cannot help but think that a zuleika oughta be an obsolete musical instrument, something like a cross between a zurna and a жалейка

asciilifeform: fuzzed it, in various ways, ada bounds checking worx like a champ in all cases

asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd. ☟︎

asciilifeform: no indication that he is anything other than a subscriber

asciilifeform: ain't that a vpn co ?

asciilifeform: it's a type of vermin.

asciilifeform: was this the one that downloaded blacklist from mike hearn's tor onion ? or was that a previous idiocy