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mircea_popescu: and why i didn't come to the same conclusion as alf, "more memory is better". not for me, i have enough for what i use it for.
mircea_popescu: so this, i would count, as the foremost and most notable application of tractor to IA. logs.
mircea_popescu: essible to the man captive in "either you remember it AS IT WAS or IT IS LOST FOREVER!!")
mircea_popescu: and "here's what i remember of what phf and alf said 15 to 45 years ago" is not nearly the same thing
mircea_popescu: aha. it's inescapable in sufficiently advanced programming ecosystems
mircea_popescu: if this was ever discussed at all, it was discussed thrity years ago at parc or w/e.
mircea_popescu: more importantly : these are things which were never discussed publicly, nor does there exists this system where "ideal pollution of machinery is attemptedly measured to be reduced".
mircea_popescu: anyway. while neither pressing nor essential, these are important considerations. we see.
mircea_popescu: nah, any frame changes would be ~new genesis practically.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would be useful in thatparticular application fo sho.
mircea_popescu: but the general problem, "how polluting machine genreators HAVE to be and how would they not be" is a very important point
mircea_popescu: because obviously fp jitter & c will drive every human up the wall. but then again having the generator not generate it prolly requires work. and so on.
mircea_popescu: a large portion of what's being studied there is just how feasible a "quiet" producer of svg is
mircea_popescu: as to the narrowed down " it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg" << it may not be. but it may well be. the fundamental problem with "time can be but wasted" is that there are no categorical cuts available. spinoza polished lenses and miller worked for the cosmoccocic company. deciding aforehand what tractor work is worth doing by hand is notoriously and to this day the chief
mircea_popescu: yeah, we're three people talking three disjunct things here. let's come to common ground.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "no ---/+++" went away in discussion last round, when phf's notational view prevailed
mircea_popescu: ye, here we have regular (this is important) and high volume (also important) hose. and people do irregular (not just as time) and low volume, so this is categorically differentiable from all other patches.
mircea_popescu: phf i thought i said explicitly the proposed patching of svg is merely TO TEST the patching system from a diff perspectrive.
mircea_popescu: i thought it was merely whether they can impose constraint at all.
mircea_popescu: or maybe we've lost track of what we're arguing here. what's the argument ?
mircea_popescu will confess his interest in geometry during school was ~nil up until functional analysis finally morphed it in, at which point WOW! geometry is cool!!
mircea_popescu: phf so i take it you much preferred classical to analytical geometry in school ?
mircea_popescu: hence, nothing to be ashamed of. but ALSO can't just pretend it ain't there lalala.
mircea_popescu: it is a very naive notion this, "i don't need to, i understand". you, odds aren, don't, and this isn't something to be ashamed of.
mircea_popescu: woman just announced she found an allocated and unused mpi in mpi.
mircea_popescu: "no i don't need to" "why do you think this ?" "stop bothering me, troll."
mircea_popescu: just like you can read the svg and miss the EVIDENT implication.
mircea_popescu: people read the same bit of code 500 times and still miss the EVIDENT bounds error.
mircea_popescu: yes you can derive meaning, and of the exact same kind in both cases. but you flatter yourself with that kind being "true meaning" in the first case because you can, and you can't in the second so you don't.
mircea_popescu was doing typography at some point, did some reading on the scholarlity of it.
mircea_popescu: there was some discussion as to the history of typographical ideas in the log somewhere
mircea_popescu: phf was your idea that "well maybe you just don't have a very clear picture of what x was in the first place, gotta press to it" ? ie, accumulating mental errors over the patch flow to GET TO x ?
mircea_popescu: but the entirety of what vpatch is, is "here's what changed from node x to node y"
mircea_popescu: how do you go from state to state other than through a diff/patch ?
mircea_popescu: phf either i'm not understanding what a .vpatch is or wut ?
mircea_popescu: this isn't for going to war with ; this is for checking out the tool(s) with.
mircea_popescu: but the idea is, getting an automated patch process going may throw a different light on this whole thing and turn out most informative.
mircea_popescu: either one special key or one new key each week, as you feel like.
mircea_popescu: guy could actually publish the item as a succession of patches, and speaking of this : hey trinque, could you be enticed to actually genesis that item, and patch it weekly ?
mircea_popescu: would you say graph as extant on wot.deedbot is not patch-ready ?
mircea_popescu: whereas when it comes to clearsigned matter, you CAN find yourself in a b and a is not applicable.
mircea_popescu: nobody will EVER find themselves in the situation of BOTH a) hurr durr, i am at leisure now let me make a patch and b) o noes, i am in distress now, can not run basic machinery.
mircea_popescu: where i can change the DISCRETE data bits independently ; as well as their adnotation.
mircea_popescu: you use machinery to turn data to comfortable representation ; the "human readable" is not about "being able to stuff my dick in power socket".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a specious argument ; "o noes, little em impulses on a platter are nor readable with my puny fingers"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if people thought in asts it'd be computers programming them.
mircea_popescu: and the whole arguments with alphabets and alf's perennial "but i r creative speshul snowflake, must has hyeroglyphs"
mircea_popescu: and "asciiart" is imo the wrong direction to take at the "asciiart or literate code" fork in the road.
mircea_popescu: it is an open and complicated q of whether what's in your head is an ast.
mircea_popescu: but what we're diffingh and patching are properly speaking our own notes, not the asts.
mircea_popescu: trinque exactly my tho9ughts. "i don't want to go there. yet."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's unfortunate that hashes can't hash meaning, but then again we're stuck with babbage looking over one shoulder and turing over the other.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the important, v-powered realisation here : there can NOT BE such a thing as bit-ambiguity in a source. if "this bit being either set or null has no effect" you have a problem, which must be addressed. because it sure as fuck isn't acceptabru to read diffs of style in a patch. patches are for substantive change.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform machine is to take over stick from my hands in all domains.
mircea_popescu: because you CAN NOT have such a thing as untreated item in code.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as something "is ignored by the compiler", that something now has to be treated somewhere else.
mircea_popescu: that's the thing : the moment you have unconnected expression, which is to say \t = " " you suddenly have the problem of style.
mircea_popescu: "no other char than tab up until the first alphanum in each line" is a fine rule ; and if someone discovers that he can't press his homebrew let someone fix his homebrew.
mircea_popescu: exactly re <asciilifeform> ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
mircea_popescu: i am NOT looking at difflists saying "and then special snowflake added a space and took out a tab"
mircea_popescu: the "backward compatibility" argument is no argument but a red herring. i will not break shit to match microsoft's sad history.
mircea_popescu: also -- if v breaks fortran then FORTRAN fixes itself.
mircea_popescu: for testing etc, fix i expect will be used. for publishing, i expect not.
mircea_popescu: which is something that was blunderingly and un-intelligently a red thread throughout coding ever since linux opened its eyes.
mircea_popescu: exactly what the rules are is an open question, but basically the idea is to separate style from content in code.