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asciilifeform: none of it, i suspect, was ever needed.

asciilifeform: that's even worse. if my nodes were failing to give EACH OTHER their best known blocks, i'd skin'em alive until found why

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 15:50 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al : i think it is worth elaborating what it means when saying 'my node is behind N blox'. what it means, if spoken properly, is that you know of some node, somewhere, that appears to have moarblox than yours. focus should be on 'did my node ask it for nextblock? what, if anything, did it answer? why ?' rather than the quite uselessly unspecific 'mah nodez are behind!111'

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759179 << when i use it, i mean that my foremost node is ahead by delta. ☝︎

phf: i'll definitely document it though, because the process is arcane, and not at all automated. ☟︎

phf: relatedly, i managed to get latest version (jan 2014) version to produce a dvi out of tex.tex from first principles. i used someone else's port to gnu pascal

asciilifeform: BigTexasBingo: the art of 'drowning like a gentleman', i.e. to behave honourably and with grace in the face of certain defeat, death, obscurity -- is largely lost in modern folx

BigTexasBingo: When I consider what the next right thing is, hambre or the threat thereof provides motivation to not be stupid and Windows

asciilifeform: phf: right. i did not say that his problem was readily solvable. but it remains -- problem.

asciilifeform: phf: given specifically as i do not know the man -- all i'm left with is 'the mathematics for which he was famous'

asciilifeform: ( and i gotta wonder whether lamport himself was an active perpetrator, or passive victim similar to knuth himself, when the 3GB of liquishit began to form ) ☟︎

phf: it's hard to say how much knuth changed over years, without knowing the man, and i don't think "for which knuth is famous" is any kind of measure. he's certainly gotten old, but i think he might also be constituionally incapable of participating in a consensus. ☟︎

asciilifeform: i dun see any fundamental reason why it ~could not~ exist. but also dun see any signs that it in fact does.

a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 04:34 asciilifeform: rmans really got to England my acquaintance of the Cafe Royal would soon have found his painting deteriorating, even if the Gestapo had let him alone. And when the lid is taken off Europe, I believe one of the things that will surprise us will be to find how little worthwhile writing of any kind -- even such things as diaries, for instance -- has been produced in secret under the dictators.'

asciilifeform: i'll point out that everything for which knuth is famous, was done before senility and macdows

phf: but to answer the question, i think i don't particularly mind the subtrate. man does computations, i wouldn't be too concerned if he were to switch to ipad even, because he'd still be hand writing algorithms with a certain detachment to the concerns of extras ☟︎

phf: he was using unix up until early 2000s, and then switched to mac (i think for old people reasons)

asciilifeform: in all fairness i can't recall how i came to think that he did.

phf: he did? i thought he uses mac, he posted his keyboard layouts

asciilifeform: but heart did not break then ? why not? i'm curious

a111: Logged on 2015-04-09 21:21 ascii_field: anyway, i happen to know more than a reasonable man ought to, about wolframism

phf: i blame wolfram

asciilifeform: dunno, all of the artifacts i recall from those days, made it easier for operator to avoid this accidental bankruptcy , not harder.

phf: i suspect ircii simply predates usability. back when men counted each character, because bell telephone company metered bauds ☟︎

phf: the other thing that i wanted to do is add xref for those inline quotes `phf: asciilifeform: grrrrr ... << kek` that people like to do

phf: well, i'm thinking illumination, which has been sop for btcbase, but yes, since split happens on client anyway (i'm using ircii right now, and it annoyingly doesn't warn OR split)

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759185 << i sometimes wonder if there's some clever way to link back split posts (i mean in cases where urls are lost, perhaps by looking at cases where 250 byte message, followed by same person within ~~<3s or somesuch) ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: don't be the fisherman who, say, 'i washed my hands after shitting and that day caught no fish, i think i'ma not ever again wash hands' etc.

asciilifeform: i get it, in the 'organic' system that is a live p2p net, proper controlled experiments are quite impossible. this however does NOT mean that one oughta freely give in to urge to climb back up the tree, becoming a monkey again, and think in voodoo criteria. even if the circumstances heavily encourage this , by failing to reward rational thought ( see mircea_popescu's thread with the italian fishermen !! , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-

asciilifeform: if what is meant is 'i looked on shitchain.info and saw a higher number than from my getinfo' should SAY that.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al : i think it is worth elaborating what it means when saying 'my node is behind N blox'. what it means, if spoken properly, is that you know of some node, somewhere, that appears to have moarblox than yours. focus should be on 'did my node ask it for nextblock? what, if anything, did it answer? why ?' rather than the quite uselessly unspecific 'mah nodez are behind!111' ☟︎

deedbot: 2017/12/22 02:03:16 <esthlos> BingoBoingo: yes, I think it's time for that

asciilifeform: as for nodes at the 'tip', the path of chinesium through layers of prb is a lottery, and i suspect that attempting to measure the effect of a trb patch on said behaviour is doomed to astrologize over noise

mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ? ☟︎

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: okay, i geddit. do it as the first step of vdiff, so the mutation shows up

ben_vulpes: i'll have to doodle, cannot do this live

ben_vulpes: it'll need codebasehashprepatch and codebasehashpostpatch i think

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:58 asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did

trinque: and yet, I can see the entire thing from the other perspective still, that cpp is broken, trb itself not a single concept but a mud, etc

mircea_popescu: anyway, this'll need moar discussions, i'm not specifiying anything on dec 26th.

trinque: "let it be known that there are these files, with these hashes" "I have changed these; their hashes are now ..."

mircea_popescu: trinque kitten trying to get into the backseat so i can play with her tits ever so briefly kissed my new suit pant's leg, now i have a typically indicative white spot on it. tbh i knida like the look of it.

ben_vulpes: moreover i want to bring up another overlooked point which is that it is illegal to press a tree with these two patches side by side

mircea_popescu: hey, i spent most of the intervening day revelring! i have circumstrances!

trinque: totally, if I have to edit something to name it as antecedent

trinque: "I edited the networking code and added better logging statements which requires the better logging code on fray, but I didn't edit the logging code."

trinque: which is where I got to "concatenate whole cppwad and hash that" as that's your cpp program anyway.

mircea_popescu: there's still a disconnect because i don't understand what the hell you mean.

trinque: that is what I mean by a merge, and has the same result.

mircea_popescu: trinque there's an ambiguity here i'm possibly responsible for though not intended : to "regrind", ie to take a pile of patches and make them into one single patch ; as opposed to re-genesis, which is what happened with eg mpi.

mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lets-suck-our-own-cocks-we-utterly-deserve-it : consider that the whole l0de thing started because someone from here checked out a SPAMMED item. the fuctard/pantsuit "engineers" in name only in EVERY OTHER fucking channel ~think~ themselves all open-minded and intelligent and whatever, yet i can make a very obviously correct and banal prediction - they wouldn't have followed it, nor in any case escalated and

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:02 trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3

trinque: as I cannot put a definition to merge that is not "destroyed vertex on this graph, because it was by my lights wrong, and created a new one"

trinque: hm. I may be learning something here, so bear with me.

mircea_popescu: what i mean by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758994 is specifically that i suspect the ONLY reason one might wish to merge is that one failed to design the item he's hacking. ☝︎

trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3 ☟︎

mircea_popescu: now, the v doctrine as it stands right now, both on logs and actual precedent, at least as far as i understand it (but this is vacuous both as a representation and as a history, as most important questions haven't yet been seriously tested) -- is that Z is right to simply sign a patch on B-genesis ;

trinque: I don't see that regrinding solves it

a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 13:27 mircea_popescu: no but see, we use different terminology. i do not assign anything to "code written". the source of code, to my eyes, is he in the wot who has read it.

trinque: sure, in the vpatch would be "I require this list of antecedent items, subset S of which I intend to change thus"

mircea_popescu: there's no difference i can observe between indiancandy scratching at the door and satoshi scratching at the door. there's a way to get in -- getting in "on their own terms" is not on the table at all.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i intend to prove no such thing to no such martian.

mircea_popescu: ie, i don't expect the trb cut as described to have a trb genesis necessariyl, or even probably.

mircea_popescu: well, i am kind of a fan of the whole "v doesn't permit you to lie to yourself about having supposedly designed what's utterly an ad-hoc item".

trinque: this is what I meant actually, by "can't modularize" within same walk of the v tree

trinque: I'm actually writing right now on how the hypertext thing relates

mircea_popescu: "hey, aren't you worried your shitcoin will get altcoin'd in the near future ?" "no, i am dog and i don't understand anything. vote me!"

asciilifeform: and especially this one, v that understands entity introductions / uses, semantic linkage aligned with v-flow ... i'd like to see it

asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did ☟︎

asciilifeform: trinque: if you have concrete algo to align these -- i'm all ears

asciilifeform: trinque: i'd go as far as to say that what you're observing is a defect in cpp, not v.

asciilifeform: ( btw is there an engl. equiv of that term ? i'd like to learn it )

asciilifeform: trinque: i actually put a good bit of thought into the vtronic shape of ffa, while rewriting it ( current-day ffa , observe, is a rewrite, largely by hand, of the previous )

BingoBoingo: Ah, I did the math the other way, Gracias

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless. << Ah, gets BTC once returns years later and has less sense and more ideas ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised... ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ( trinque ? ) what ~concrete~ operation on trb tree did v-as-it-nao-exists keep you from easily carrying out ? i'd like to see ?

asciilifeform: what is with this eagerness to pointlessly blunt the knife. i dunget it !

asciilifeform: i ~like~ that it is clear what parts of a whole were changed, and what -- left alone.

asciilifeform: ( i.e. it is already inescapably linear. asciilifeform half-expected that the kakoschism would produce a long-playing split of the trb universe, but neverhappened. not every possible thing, happens... )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread. ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: i would like everybody who is itching to change the way v fundamentally works, to sit down and think about why we ain't using 'git' etc.

asciilifeform: i should not need to look for a meta-document (with own sig, presumably) to know which group of patchons constitutes e.g. 'asciilifeform_dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing' .

a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758809 << i gotta ask : why ? ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758834 << it is not clear to me why the current scheme ( leaving aside the idiocies of unix diff/patch, in particular the file moves thing ) is not satisfactory. i dun subscribe to the 'force beauty through mechanism' school of thought. it is the job of the patch author to make it behave acceptably in the target vtree, ~before~ releasing. and failures are of the author, not of the mechanicals. ☝︎

asciilifeform: i suspect that not 1 could follow, e.g., the apeloyee noise floor thread.

asciilifeform: but observation is that plenty of folx are, i suspect, already 'pirating'

asciilifeform: currently i know of nothing.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:19 shinohai: Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD

mircea_popescu: if anyone's got an idea of how to construct the item though i'd much like to hear.

a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:02 danielpbarron: relatedly, l0de expressed interest in running a "trilema infomercial" on his show. I told him he should bring it up in here, as i'm not sure what that should entail

shinohai: Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD ☟︎

l0de: I would stress that my audience doesn't take anything seriously unless it's presented in a humorous context or it is presented as ruining someone's shit

l0de: I suggest the most serene republic air some sort of introductory statement