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asciilifeform: i built the orig v with a certain amount of mechanical 'luft' , so that lateral motion of information between brains was possible without total history erasure. however it is entirely true that this makes it possible to turn a vtree into nonsense with a sequence of individually-correct operations. now you can try and take away the luft , 'hash whole previous press' etc. you can already get this effect in existing v by concatenating e

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765921 << this is entirely troo tho. i simply dun see that it is amenable to a mechanical solution. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765918 << if mircea_popescu sees himself as the 1 fella with a working head, and sole fountain of sanity, and errybody else is a peculiar sort of animated furniture -- i am quite powerless to cure. ( occasionally i'll try curing anyway, as it sometimes seems to work , e.g. seems to be finally cured of 'plain text' after 3+ yrs of 'wie sind sie eigentlich... !' ) ☝︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: so no, at no fucking point does any patch have anything other than a single parent, which is properly speaking "the previous press", rather than "a random collection of files scattered about". like it or not, files don't have the sort of semantic power whereby a db.cpp "of the right hash" will always be useful when imported into some random project. files are not contextless ; neither because they aren't currently tooled to b

mircea_popescu: if instead of this we look at the other kind of "two parents", whereby ch3 supposedly has both ch2 and mpi_fix_copy as parents, this is specifically the situation discussed by the problem A : that two patches, which ARE STILL IN A CHAIN, nevertheless happen to touch disjunct filesets, and so the question of their order is open (which phf renders "correctly" in the sense of acceptably as he does ; but which is NOT meaningful i

mircea_popescu: second off, this approach where you take some vague fragment of what was said, respin it into some bit of nonsense meaningful to some random other interest in your own head and proceed as if that's what's said is not a game anyone in my experience willingly entertained.

mircea_popescu: there's a very strict limit on the complexity of any discussion (which -- correlates to its utility) imposed by the propensity of bad actor to inject nonsense in the conversation.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765888 << fughet, for the final time, 'bazaar', esr ain't here, and aint' gonna be here. and it is wrong to use the whip used for esr, on actual people. until you grasp this, your universe will not contain actual people. to unsheath the esr whip here is a fundamentally solipsistic act. ☝︎

asciilifeform: and now it takes a lifetime to simply juggle the v-mechanics, leaving ~0 time for any of the 'irrelevant' detail like, say, writing ffa.

asciilifeform: and yes it is exactly same thing. mircea_popescu/trinque-style 'single hash' v is moar philosophically-coherent. change 1 byte ? you now live in separate universe. and anyone who wants to use any of yours, must manually create a new universe.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 19:53 asciilifeform: if i had any reason to think that turning v tree into a forest of vertical stakes , exponentially crowded with IDENTICAL payloads that cannot be machine-compared , would make it easier to tell friend from foe and wisdom from folly -- i would agree with mircea_popescu's algo. but i do not.

a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 04:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:40 asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:38 asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments. ☝︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: through some discussion it emerged that A.1 and A.2 are not practically distinct, one just provides the memory for the implementation fo the other as a foremost feature.

mircea_popescu: problem A has two possible legitimate answers : A.1 : introduce a further parentage chain (so patch does not discuss merely file hashes but also somehow a hash of prev patch) and A.2 : introduce a magic file which must (by protocol) be touched by all patches.

mircea_popescu: problem S will not be considered ; problem X is resolved by answering yes. because god fucking help you, if your patch has two antecedents you are a heretic anathema.

mircea_popescu: 1. problem S (alf's) is entirely spurious and not part of this confersation, go talk to dreamweaver about it ; 2. problem A (trinque's) : "if two patches with same antecedent touch disjunct filesets, how does establish which came first" ; 3. problem X ( ben_vulpes 's) : "if i totally sabotage v into a piece of shit entirely contrary to its everything, will you hit me in the head ?"

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:24 ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 20:26 asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:22 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado

mircea_popescu: yeah seriously. failure of the esl mind is mostly ensured by a very broken evaluation of "success". take the brick in hand, enough achievement for the first day is to have managed to fucking hold it. yes, it's completely opaque to you. so what if it is. so are many things. see what can be cracked out of it ; there's no shortage of "science fiction" "magical realism" whatever in the actual world once one's you know, no longer

mircea_popescu: "did it not ever occur to you to get a week's supply ahead of time ?" "here's a $20 check"

asciilifeform: daily dope is simply a black hole for money, even if it dun do you in

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765278 << teitelbaum gaon sez, excessive virtue still vicious. nothing wrong with a little of whatever now and again, i for that matter drink the occasional cup of coffee and so on. the problem's when it becomes a regular thing, "i am in X circumstance therefore must Y". ☝︎

asciilifeform: nn is a very broad item, and properly speaking the 'training' is distinct from the mechanics of the 'neurons' per se

mircea_popescu: this is a neural network in the sense frog has cns.

mircea_popescu: in a sense of nn whittled down to mean "here's this 1T bayesian array"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah nah, was some other kid, had a whole pile of "nsa recognizes you for your not having done any work in x field" certs and whatnot.

a111: Logged on 2017-11-25 00:24 gabriel_laddel: 1000x magnification seems unrealistic - that being said: if I crush some product, take hundreds of images of each sample & use them as input into a neural network along with a 1-10 (bunk-absolute fire) rating y'think it'll get trained to recognize the real deal?

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 19:16 gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them

mircea_popescu: well this has been a productive morning then.

asciilifeform: this is when asciilifeform admits that he has a small demo of this. but is being saved for after ffa, cuz Finishing Things Properly (tm)

asciilifeform: indentation and whitespace placement in general, oughta be a harem (i.e. terminal config) matter.

a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 02:46 asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )

asciilifeform: forget writers of code and who-whom, for a minute, it's an actual unsolved

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:54 asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765140 << could trivially point into structure by word count! which is how it was fucking done before you darned kids started skatin' on the sidewalk! my addressing into classical text is paragraph count / word offset. what the FUCK is a line! ☝︎

asciilifeform: ( you want a unique e.g. rsa privmod, but without having to show it to anybody ... )

asciilifeform: harder is when there is not a record.

asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter ) ☟︎

mircea_popescu: when i ask for a deposit it won't fucking recur.

asciilifeform: ^ there's gotta be a likbez in'ere.

asciilifeform: they're simply 'i want a piece of shit that won't recur'

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:29 asciilifeform: ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765100 << this is a gensym in the sense girl you met at butcher's is your true love. why not call gns like sane people. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 18:28 asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765095 << there's a certain...ring... to that. "a cuntoo pressing itself". http://78.media.tumblr.com/9307e89967592d33f10d9598fcdbc2ec/tumblr_ndiplotSRF1th0gwho1_1280.jpg ☝︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765028 << lmao this guy. YOU PUT IT THERE! and moreover... what is the logic of "begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5" when "it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day." ? DID YOU NOT READ IT ? ☝︎

esthlos: hmm...is there a way for reflow not to break diff...

esthlos: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20180105/#802 << I have an intuition that this is missing a higher symmetry. Why not use v for prose documents?

mircea_popescu: contrary to what pantsuit may be whispering in ear, "here i am, with this 10lb book of which i can read not a word" is a very poor predictor of failure.

a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 17:11 mircea_popescu: they had all sorts of (utterly nonsensical) "cars of the future", their features being that they were "warlike" (in a dysfunctional, anti-mechanicistic, looks-are-everything-and-hot-beats-cute girl pov) and that they had mechanisms exposed

mircea_popescu: exactly a problem of "where the fuck is your engine" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763930 ie "your problem is that you aren't fucking thinking. AT ALL." ☝︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a place where he was integrated into the borg, but it's a dubious weld.

mircea_popescu: absolute ban on english as an avenue to this much in the same way absolute ban to barking as an avenue to opera. i don't care if you're a dog and i don't care if barking comes naturally to you

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765023 << sadly, not in this language. but otherwise, the german school is the canonical introduction ; read ye yer kant, then proceed to http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=frege (not the other fucking way around ; english is a liability to the thinking man, and the latter's accessibility a burden). ☝︎

asciilifeform: i have a ch4 for ben_vulpes but not a ch3...

asciilifeform: this goes for anybody else who has a crackpot alt-v

a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 00:00 asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc

asciilifeform: understand, trinque , asciilifeform does not suffer from an irrational hatred of people who start with letter 't' , and thereby balk at $algo. asciilifeform genuinely does not see how it results in anything other than a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765616 horror show. ☝︎

trinque: I proposed two schemes to better model it, and actually like the second better. one was including the entire concatenation's hash in a vpatch. the second was being able to name arbitrary antecedent files without the requirement that diff material follows

asciilifeform: you can sign tarballs right now. i dun see why to even use a vtron then.

trinque: this is nonsense. people can choose any prior state whatsoever as basis for a new patch.

asciilifeform: if every patch were forced to do it, you could not have a tree at all -- only radiating spokes.

ben_vulpes: but this is the magic political speshul case of a patch that ties together other patches for the political object that is a release!

trinque: second, does my memory deceive or did the thing end up with a comment in an *unrelated file*

asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: mod6's 'makefiles' was able to cleanly build on 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' , without regrinding anything. i still fail to understand what would have been gained by forcing mod6 to ~manually~ regrind the entire history of entire fucking world in order to produce 'makefiles' ( and for the latter to consequently weigh a megabyte , instead of 10kb !!! )

asciilifeform: and at the risk of repeating , trinque can ~already~ do his style, in the existing v. whereas asciilifeform can't do worth shit in a trinque-style v.

asciilifeform: it's a fact. it works.

asciilifeform: y'know how this ends,trinque, it ends with having to line yer house with rope ('eruv'), pay some d00d to dial a modem to turn yer stove on and off...

trinque: hasn't yet been any reason someone benefits by having your edit to maxlocks but having done something batshit to say, a file db.cpp depends upon

asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around ☟︎

trinque: we come to a deep political disagreement there

ben_vulpes: the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks

asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and i'ma have nothing to do with any project that makes use of such a system.

asciilifeform: trinque: your tree ends up a spaghetti of radiating strands that can never recoalesce.

trinque: I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it

asciilifeform: patches that do not touch db.cpp , in any way shape or form, should not lock it into a state or depend on a particular state of it

asciilifeform: this is not actually possible in a general way, it'd have to ~understand~ cpp, ada, cl, whatevers

trinque: you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*

asciilifeform: i pointedly do NOT agree that 'having to use an external tool like cp command' is a problem. for fuckssake you have to use a non-vtron tool to edit the coad ! vtron dun replace emacs.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: think of it this way : EVERY time you edit ANYTHING, you created 'invalid' state, i.e. one that could never have been the result of a sequence of presses of previously-existing patches !

trinque: patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.

asciilifeform: can draw a hypothetical for asciilifeform's enlightenment plox ?

asciilifeform: how you make a vdiff is yer own biznis, can make with magnetic needle for all anybody cares

ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only item required to be a hook on which a valid press hangs, is individual patch

ben_vulpes: what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.

trinque: you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch. ☟︎

asciilifeform: i oughta be able to take a 1MB text file, cut it in the middle, and swap the halves, and the resulting diff to be a few lines.

a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?

asciilifeform: walmartistan! 'filtration system, a marvel to behoooold...'(tm)(r)

asciilifeform: ( yes there will be a mips32 etc )

asciilifeform: it gets replaced wholesale when porting to, e.g., a dedicated micro

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes is a winrar

asciilifeform: !A .0.0.0.0.0.0.0 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q