log☇︎
33500+ entries in 0.327s
asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum. ☟︎
phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention. ☟︎
asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
asciilifeform: given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit. ☟︎
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant
asciilifeform: he - correctly - said that i may as well be smoking crack
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
asciilifeform: that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
asciilifeform: the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
mircea_popescu: or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?
asciilifeform: and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
asciilifeform: which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you'
PeterL: as was described previously
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial, but for some reason it did not alarm him that miners could agree on something which theoretically leads to dropping PERFECTLY VALID TX on the floor ?!
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
asciilifeform: the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion
asciilifeform: perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.
mats: http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as a possible explanation.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: but as it is, doesn't seem a workable plan.
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.
mats: jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver
mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.
phf: seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.
solrodar: it's very easy to enumerate bitbet's assets and liabilities, as mp has done
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:16:26; mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?
mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: to do this heavy lifting as long as they are given just the right facts, filtered from the noise."
asciilifeform: as far as i can see, the only chance of it resolving cleanly involves mircea_popescu doing a multitude of 'things for phree' which is one of the reasons he is in none too happy a mood.
asciilifeform: as i understand
solrodar: mircea_popescu: as I understand the listing agreement, both you and kakobrekla need to agree before either of you can sell your joint 50%
solrodar: such as by one or both of them selling their controlling interest
phf: jurov: and when judge passes a verdict and mp does not comply or whatever the outcome is we can say "tmsr as an instituation has failed and we can walk away" i mean, what's the problem there?
phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432210 << so basically we have a community full of people who confuse "voice of sanity" and "people on tilt" liberally, and by and large is willing to "discuss" everything from this arm's length position of "whatever, as long as we're spending other people's money here's what we think", but by and large can't do anything AT ALL ? ☝︎
snorera: feel freee to recieve as you like
snorera: i meant its likely the reciever woould try to maintain, but i can see yuo as it
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:27:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.
asciilifeform: so this'd be rather like faulting a fella shot as a bystander in a bank robbery, for not wearing a flak jacket that day ?
asciilifeform: as far as i can see.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee. ☟︎
nubbins`: You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands [when you chose to send a 0-fee tx and you got bitten as a result]. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i have nfi why he transmitted without fee. just as i have nfi why the operators at chernobyl reactor 4 wanted to 'test'
thestringpuller: I'm still confused I guess as to why no fee was used for the payouts..........
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 20:57:48; mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls.
assbot: Logged on 26-01-2016 17:20:06; ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc)
thestringpuller: that's why that article was so interesting to me as a 13 year old since the AI in games was exhibiting emergent behavior not seen previously. (or at least throughout my childhood)
asciilifeform: which is why google's thing uses montecarlo method as heavily as nn
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: nn forgets as readily as it learns
thestringpuller: only if my coworkers actually worked as they do here when working from home
nubbins`: so the outstanding liabilities to shareholders could be as high as 50%, tho i doubt it.
nubbins`: as per listing agreement
mircea_popescu: of both kinds, i guess. with any luck, balance shifts slowly to the left as time goes on.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431681 << a) a rose by any other trust backers would smell as sweet i'm sure b) i missed the part of this saga where this is not the ☝︎
mpSCAM: popescu finally outed as a scammer?
pete_dushenski: https://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/website/PSUTalk.pdf << on the subject of algebra ii as it relates to social sciences
ascii_field: and as i understand, receiver needs the technical ability to unravel kakobrekla's code
mircea_popescu: i don't specifically care. as long as the person seems competent... hey.
ben_vulpes: this is going to be hung, as the receiver will have to answer as to the disposition of your charge, and either way one of the founders is going to refuse an unfriendly nominee.
pete_dushenski: declined, though he did manage to leave with US$82 million … in exchange for a US$300 million mortgage. When Trump’s investors from Hong Kong cashed out more than a decade later, US$1.8 billion in profits awaited them. Thin-skinned as ever, Trump sued them."
pete_dushenski: "Moneyed folk in Hong Kong know of his phoniness, mainly because of something that happened in the early 1990s. Trump bungled a real estate deal in New York City, one that would have truly established him as a titan of America, and he needed cash fast. He came to Hong Kong looking for investors, and met them for a game of golf. They wanted to play for US$1 million a hole. Trump knew he was out of his league and
pete_dushenski actually currently has as little ballskin in bbet's maws as he has had in 2 years. blessedly!
ascii_field: mircea_popescu has grim but 100% accurat point, as often
mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls. ☟︎
pete_dushenski: for as long as server A in location A' could work just as well as server B in location B', it would hold
mircea_popescu: i invent things by degrees and i can't always and on the button answer as to the logic of things. they go in a context. i know for a fact the arrangement make sense in 2012, but entirely hazy as to the reasoning.
ben_vulpes: the problem appears to not be "unexpected expense" but a disagreement between the founders as to the legitimacy of the expense.
ascii_field: 'This line of credit carries seniority above that of shareholders and below that of bettors.' was mircea_popescu's earlier verdict, but now 'Bitbet's liabilities are currently comprised of various bills (such as the 17.94766149 BTC it owes as per this report, such as whatever fee it may owe the receiver for his trouble, and others as may arise), which are the most senior ; with the remainder to go to payouts to th
mircea_popescu: i must say the experience has been rather sobering as to all sorts of naive assumptions as to value, wealth and economics in the bitcoin world.
ascii_field: i already stand on th board with only one foot, in having lately to spend virtually all of my time working on idiotic rubbish so as to pay the rent.
assbot: Logged on 13-03-2016 14:32:19; ascii_field: my hypothesis is that he was not paid to lose, as such, but to keep a particular style of play, and he believed that he could win regardless.
lexborisov: I'm from Russia for a long time choosing my words. My English is not so good as we would like. Sorry
danielpbarron: conversations may take place over long periods of time through use of referencing lines in the public log, which comes in handy when participants are not available to talk at the same time, as seems to be the case at the moment
ascii_field: my hypothesis is that he was not paid to lose, as such, but to keep a particular style of play, and he believed that he could win regardless. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: but as a sidepoint, this "style" thing is a lot like make-up. most young women look great without it ; in some cases, when well applied, can turn even mediocre women into total knockouts. but by the time it's measured by the lb, it ain't doing anyone any good.
ben_vulpes: read that as "quote as fuck" for half a second
mod6: <+shinohai> mod6: i built this as qemu img so i can try to make mirror of the whole shebang. << ah ok
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo speaking of which, perhaps it's time to start referencing usg as "the government IN washington" ? not like it's legitimate or anything. << I'll have to do some reading into the right way to deny them legitimacy in writing
shinohai: mod6: i built this as qemu img so i can try to make mirror of the whole shebang.
phf: ben_vulpes: also dood wtf you stop in the city, swing through powells, and can't go 2 mi out of the way to get your eyes on my fp and mine on yours? << i'm guilty as charged, but it was not intended as a slight, so please don't take it as such. i needed to clear my head, and while i thought i should reach out, i didn't have it in me. this is not the last time i'm in Oregon this year, so i promise to not make the same mistake again :)
phf: asciilifeform: b) readermacro in commonlisp, it turns into s-expression as well formed as the html, and the resulting proggy is what, ten line. << i wish, closure-html is 4252 uloc, depends on cxml 7881 uloc, depends on closure-common 2053 uloc.
mircea_popescu: it's on their fucking heads. when i'm not willing to pay as much as a farthing for the continuance of the world they built, this'd be why.
asciilifeform: b) readermacro in commonlisp, it turns into s-expression as well formed as the html, and the resulting proggy is what, ten line.
mircea_popescu: just like you know, the elector of saxony being konig im as opposed of konig der. for as long as he stays home he can pretend he's king.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo speaking of which, perhaps it's time to start referencing usg as "the government IN washington" ? not like it's legitimate or anything.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2016#1431095 << a) who the fuck do you imagine owns cattle and pretends they're women ; b) srsly now, this isn't how it works, you redefine the context. i own the women you'd be proud to call girlfriend, as cattle. and yes, they have exactly nothing against this arrangement, in fact, they bluntly prefer being owned by me than being your girlfriend. now you're lookin at the prob ☝︎
asciilifeform: '“The truth is, actually, Putin, in all of our meetings, is scrupulously polite, very frank. Our meetings are very businesslike. He never keeps me waiting two hours like he does a bunch of these other folks.” Obama said that Putin believes his relationship with the U.S. is more important than Americans tend to think. “He’s constantly interested in being seen as our peer and as working with us, because he’s not comple
mircea_popescu: if derpy site is going to print numbers, might as well print the same ones. one'd think.
granny: The bet here bitbet.us/bet/1248/ethereum-to-top-1-billion-market-cap-before/ is resolved, as Ethereum just surpassed billion market cap.