log☇︎
30900+ entries in 0.178s
cnomad: so, some advice, if you want -- competition format for long term research is not a great motivator, since it doesn't guarantee that someone will get paid for their time
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, honestly, it was a pretty entertaining and informatrive discussion, by my lights. what mosfilm always wanted to make and never managed.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu doesn't see how the contest can be set up without creating a refereeing clusterfuck, or enriching alice_m, then i refuse to ask him to put any coin into any such thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, notice how well arbitering works! i have no way to specify ~whether~ im actually paying a coin into this shipile or not. NOR DO I CARE. i'm just letting you arbiter.
phf: asciilifeform: yes. a bounty is open to all comers, even the dude's brother.
mircea_popescu: there's even a trilema about it.
asciilifeform: phf: speaking of which, consider the easiest winner , if the anti-patch condition is absent -- a google shitmonkey who knows the hole already and 'wins' on the monday right prior to patch tuesday. ☟︎
asciilifeform: all in all, i'd rather not have the contest at all, than to chance to give coin to fucking alice_m to add coin cherry to the top of a google bounty cake.
asciilifeform: on top of whatever massage already done ( and much as i hate to say it, it seems like a fairly high quality boobytrap )
phf: also contest starts around the time that ascii publishes articles on subj, conceivable that someone else decides to look at the cr50, white hats a vulnerability to google.
mircea_popescu: that it sounds exatly like a scam.
mircea_popescu: either can have arbitered contest, which defines a goal in human lang ; or else can have exam, which defines a final state, in machine lang.
asciilifeform: i mean, already ~all i expect from $contest is a slightly taller than usual pile of 'you suxxx!!' mail
asciilifeform: we're contemplating a 4 wk marriage, of sorts, i guess.
mircea_popescu: as a statistical approach.
asciilifeform: actually plenty of biznis worx like this. i had a squirrel exterminator make precisely this guarantee, on paper.
mircea_popescu: "this opera is only good if building not flooded during a nine week interval after itwas played"
asciilifeform: esp. given a politically reliable ( and why shouldn't he be ) referee.
asciilifeform: it isn't trivial. but i can only with difficulty picture a contest where it is easier than in this one.
mircea_popescu: this is a more difficult thing than you think.
asciilifeform: i dun think i actually disagree with mircea_popescu , re: whether there will be a winner.
mircea_popescu: it may be the case, now and again, that your own fetishes aren't a worldwide concern.
asciilifeform: i dun see what's wrong with a 'pill WILL work month later, even if you have to go and hbomb google hq' clause. )
phf: gentleman's word, if only there was a mechanism to verify a gentleman's trustworthiness
mircea_popescu: a review of extant literaturer shows this is the only known-to-work example of a cut to your problem.
phf: i don't think "can still buy and diddle of amazon in a month" is adequate test for "didn't leak the patch to google". but i don't think there's a procedure to test the goal in general (see absence of evidence above). perhaps you could restate the goal, but then whatever restatement i'm not sure it will be under the control of the participant. in fact as mircea_popescu pointed out, a restatement of this particular goal simply introduces a random element
mircea_popescu: consider this : i set up a tent at porcfest, advertising "mp slavegirl intake". and there is sure enough a lengthy line of bikini clad beauties before it. i also put slavegirl in tent, and instruct her to reject the ugly ones. ugliness is "mechanically testably alf 3.o" defined as "lacks third tit". end of day, my slavegirl's pretty downcast.
asciilifeform: imho i have described enough of a mechanical litmus, that a referee can stand on solid ground.
asciilifeform: if phf can think of a way to 'game' the 'exam', i'm all ears.
asciilifeform: meaningful. i either get a pile of c101pa with rewritable cr50 256kB firmwares, or not.
phf: goals and procedures inadvertently put the arbiter in the position of affirming that the goal has been or been not achieved but without following own procedures. in other words you want me to potentially call that the source has been leaked to google, but rely on a procedure that i can't possibly consider adequate for the verification.
phf: asciilifeform: my thinking is that your goals ("didn't leak to google") ought to be separate from the testing procedures ("can buy from amazon in a month"). some of your goals are potentially untestable and it's up to whoever's doing independent verification to come up with the procedure for testing, or dismiss the goal as untestable. then up to you to either find a different arbiter, or agree not to pursue one of the goals. i think that providing both
asciilifeform recently set up a (rx-only , for nao ) shortwave thing
asciilifeform: ( it's a radio with air core transformer.. )
mircea_popescu: it's not even dumb, it's like a pcb with a large hole in the middle.
mircea_popescu: so... i can't imagine the problem you're trying tro approach even exists, which is why i can't come up with a way to solve it.
mircea_popescu: seems to me that if the one is looking to eat out of his work, he'll likely not even know you exist. because the sort of people dumb enough to depend on their daily labour for their sustenance while at the same time smart enough to reverse engineer are a very narrowly defined set. one is guaranteedly pantsuit.
mircea_popescu: well, to me this seems a much larger risk than the possible insolvency of alf.
asciilifeform: he does not, correct. therefore he is to be cognizant that he is taking a chance.
mircea_popescu: you may have no need, but putative player has no way to control wtf will hapen in a month.
asciilifeform: at any rate currently i dun even have a referee. chances are that there will be no game.
asciilifeform: understand, i have no use whatsoever for a hole that gets sent to google immediately upon discovery. i would not only not pay a coin for ~that~, but would not pay a $1 bill.
mircea_popescu: as a visitor only, however.
mircea_popescu: and you imagine complicated injustice is better than just a shrug and a pat on the ass ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, your design is dysfunctional in that (even allowing for it modelling somewhat close to reality, which i have no faith it does) suppose today someone gives you a working pill, and june 27th google patches the hole. and the someone says "dood, i have nfi, i honestly didn't tell anyone anything".
mircea_popescu: dood, danielpbarron had like a whole crate of them. ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost on my end , to buy and transport, was about 300bux. now you can prolly turn this into a few grand, if you compare against 'keep coin in pocket' , sure
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was a few grand.
asciilifeform: in re pogo in particular, i dun recall a particular +ev biznis plan for'em . they were , in mircea_popescu's exact, iirc, words, a reserve fleet.
mircea_popescu: but back to it : i see the value in taking a magic marker to the outside track of google's "drm". i do not see the value in your hairebrained scheme to make a business out of it.
asciilifeform: there's a finite, currently large but monotonically dwindling, number of non-nsa comps.
asciilifeform: i see a number of problems, 'it wasn't worth buying for $ 600' aint one.
mircea_popescu: well like it or not, it's old crap. the thinkpad sitting sadly on a chair is...like 2gb ram and a fucking pentium
mircea_popescu: i think i have one right here. from ~period. it's a workhorse, sure, and it paid for itself many times over, but... ☟︎
asciilifeform: the thing for which asciilifeform made a cured bios
asciilifeform: actually a pre-lenovo design
phf: asciilifeform: i'm up for a job of contest arbiter, i don't think that what you're proposing is arbitration. i thought that you're going to give goals, and it's up to me to evaluate if the goals have been achieved. but you want me to merely verify your procedure. that's fine, but that doesn't make me an arbitrator.
asciilifeform: lol no it wouldn't, i'd prolly buy a coupla dozen.
mircea_popescu: um... it'd have been a terrible deal.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824502 << right. it's also not a good idea for an arbiter to sign someone else's exam, as if it's anything but. i've offered to run the proposed experiments without arbitrating, but that's not what ascii wants. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:07 asciilifeform: after $time , phf goes and buys, from amazon, a c101pa , and administers the pill. if it is cured just the same as his current one, the other half of prize is to be awarded.
asciilifeform: pretty clear imho. obtain a c101pa. obtain the snake ( schematic on asciilifeform's www . ) send to asciilifeform the output of the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-12#1824405 . then, judge prospective winners , under condition http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824459 . if pill permits overwriting all 256k of the chip, with arbitrary contents , we have a winner. then month later, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824462 . ☝︎☝︎☝︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824480 << not to mention he still has a pile of whatever they were, from last time. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: gotta pick what you pick ; and as per the common sense notion, if your job isn't a good fit for any tool, your job's not a well defined job.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:07 phf: yes, but if you are going to establish a procedure why do you need an arbitrator, or in other words, i don't see a point of separate arbitrator if the process is your own
asciilifeform: get'em a tig rig.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, fwi, "No word from oil insiders on interest in the shambling cryptographic provenance solutions still in search of a problem to solve and customers to buy it; but this has not deterred Team Cockchain ("Smokin' it!" ™®) from announcing eleventeen different projects to disrupt this massive industry from its mother's basement." makes 0 sense to me.
asciilifeform: ( ever see 'vhs america' film 'man without a face' ? )
mircea_popescu: "oh it dun do anything, it's just oxigen" "sure. until the day it does something, then you'll really see a show" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: eh, amateur metallurgy is a bdsm mainstay.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this world coming to. i just vented a few m3 into the biodiversidad
asciilifeform: it'd be a quite pricey pile of poor hammers.
asciilifeform: if we can't get somebody other than asciilifeform to stand up as referee, can't really have this contest imho. and a pill that gets immediately patched against by enemy , is of no use.
asciilifeform: ok i guess we need a new referee.
phf: asciilifeform: i see, i'm sorry, but i don't think i can properly be called a referee under these conditions. i can do independent testing for you though, i.e. test against current c101pa, and against one that i purchase at a time you indicate.
asciilifeform: so that i can acquire a supply of curable boxen.
asciilifeform: phf: i fully expect that the winner will want to publish his discovery. hence i would like to give an incentive for him to wait a reasonable time.
phf: yes, but if you are going to establish a procedure why do you need an arbitrator, or in other words, i don't see a point of separate arbitrator if the process is your own ☟︎
asciilifeform: after $time , phf goes and buys, from amazon, a c101pa , and administers the pill. if it is cured just the same as his current one, the other half of prize is to be awarded. ☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: i described a coupla min ago, upthread, how.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:44 asciilifeform: for my purposes, a proper break is when i can load in arbitrary firmware in place of the vendor's.
asciilifeform: trinque: there's a pretty good chance that the prize will not be claimed.
trinque: yep, thing works best if there's always a somebody on the other end, of course.
asciilifeform: on 2nd thought possibly bad idea, if contest ends without a winner, what to do about them.
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 1 minute ago: <asciilifeform> would it be possible to set up a public address that will auto-add to the pot when sent coin to ?
trinque: asciilifeform: just register a nick that represents the pot, have folks !!pay that nick
asciilifeform: !Q later tell trinque would it be possible to set up a public address that will auto-add to the pot when sent coin to ?
mircea_popescu: holy shit oxigen line punctured. aite, ima be back in a few, this just became a hazardous environment o.O
asciilifeform: google is a big bag of printolade, is all.
mircea_popescu: imo it's a way better story if it goes "and then google patched with bated breath WITHIN MINUTES"
asciilifeform: in a month, i buy boxen, cure'em.
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, and if your model is correct, secret waits a month thereby ? what's in a month ?
asciilifeform: it is to be computed as follows : at the end of the elapsed period, i go to a shop and buy a box, and let it vendor-update
mircea_popescu: "shows to signs" is not a computable string for the phf-machine.
asciilifeform: also thinking , half the prize is to be paid immediately on the receipt of a working crack, and other half a month later if google shows no sign of patching.
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine we'll have such a deluge of these the clerical work keeping track is worh the hassle
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/on-the-internet-nobody-believes-youre-a-sow/ << Trilema - On the internet, nobody believes you're a sow.
asciilifeform: phf: the way i'm thinking of doing it: i'ma write up and sign a statement describing the competition; you will create a special-occasion key, e.g. 'cr50contest', rate it e.g. +1 cr50 , and i will drop a coin into it.
deedbot: asciilifeform rated cnomad 1 << says, he's a reverser.
asciilifeform: !!rate cnomad 1 says, he's a reverser.