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phf: asciilifeform: if you haven't looked, ave1's item is a significantly cut subset of ada's standard, where, e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/zfp_2_noc/tree/adainclude/a-textio.ads is text_io (compare to real text_io)

asciilifeform: phf: ave1's item is simply a frozen snapshot of (iirc 2016) gnat.

asciilifeform: phf: why would either of these belong in a compiler ?!

phf: or is tmsr ada whatever ave1 put into his musl build, which is, worse, a political situation. diana_coman can argue for her ffi stuff to be included, should i be arguing for my get/put stuff to be included? ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( though yes, eventually i would like to codify the subset as a standard in own right. )

phf: as far as ada is concerned, the tmsr ada is a subset of standard, that only exists in your head, and can be somewhat inferred from ffa. that's no standard ☟︎

asciilifeform: ada standard is just about a hair's breadth away from a proper , Troo standard.

asciilifeform: ( ~ffa_calc~ is not, as it uses a gnatism to grab the commandline args. )

asciilifeform: phf: say what you will re ada standard, but e.g. ffa is ( afaik! ) a nontrivial and at same time ada2012-compliant proggy. ☟︎

phf: asciilifeform: oh yeah, i get it, the approach requires a GOST cpu with a GOST bus etc. etc. right now the situation is mildly depressing (though perhaps that's not the right word), even Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions) ☟︎

asciilifeform: phf: as you can prolly tell, asciilifeform has an old-fashioned, ГОСТ-like view of standards. in that a standard really ~must~ specifically make vendor lock-in impossible. and if it fails to do this, it is broken and oughta be corrected ( or thrown out. )

phf: standard by they way allows for a subset of "such horrors" in form of symbol-macrolet

asciilifeform: and broken by erry vendor in existence . but this is not a point of pride, imho, for it.

asciilifeform: phf: but asciilifeform is a subscriber to the 'what is not mandatory is forbidden' school of prog lang standard.

phf: you should know that common lisp standard is not the whole, but rather the top, i.e. the commonality of features between multiple lisp machines. there are parts that explicitly under specified to allow for a variety of behaviors

phf: asciilifeform: you can still add a feature without violating the standard, but there's tones of features like that that can only exist as part of compiler and also not violate a standard. lazy symbol is a particularly good example: the symbol behaves according to standard, but accessing its value "stops the world" for all practical purposes, calls some other machinery, "resumes the world" with the value provided by machinery.

asciilifeform: phf: how not ? seems like if you add a feature that 'must be in compiler', you ipso facto broke standard

phf: well, 100 ln patch to the compiler, because it can't be done as a user proggy (e.g. (symbol-value 'foo) triggers a mechanism of some sort, without an indirection)

asciilifeform: phf: sounds like a , what, 100ln proggy

phf: for example in naggum's "history of time" he talks about having a package tz with symbols for all the timezones, and if you access say tz:est or whatever, the timezone is transparently loaded. can only be done in allegro ☟︎

phf: allegro is batteries included, and if they're not they'll add the batteries for you, so for most practical purposes you don't need to fuck with quicklisp and the variety of dodgy quicklisp packages. but allegro generally made a lot of, i don't know how to put it, old skill lisp-machine-y decisions to make sure your development experience is superior. instead of being sticklers for the standard, and not venturing outside of it, they kept adding nooks an

phf: well lispworks has capi, that doesn't have an non-proprietary equivalent, so if your work requires any kind of gui, you're stuck with some very dodgy solutions (in the early days i even used emacs/slime as a gui backed by ccl) ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 10:20 mats: a peltier teg looks ideal for the parasitic relay power plant

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835819 << not for sw relay. sw antenna ideally is a 20meter-hypotenuse triangle. in the woods. what in the woods is hot enuff to run a teg ? ( not considering strontium90 barrels here, but compact and inexpensive items. ) afaik pv panel is the only pill. ☝︎☟︎

phf: are you talking in the context of tmsr, or your commercial work? i had both of them bought at some point, back in my common lisp consulting days it was a no brainer, the cost was always a small fraction of the contract, but the technical advantage immense. but then i don't have the source code for many things that i make my food with ☟︎

asciilifeform: both dead to me nao. i never signed the pact for the src, and i won't use today a compiler for which i lack src, full stop.

phf: but i also don't know how you get the source from lispworks, if at all. they have a fixed price list though.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835681 << in allegro's case the model was (is?) a vendor partnership, they don't sell to all comers. you have to have a sit down where you essentially pitch your project to them and work out a payment structure, some combination of buy in, royalties, etc. similar to some of the banking vendors i worked with, like kx ☝︎

phf: the usgistic appearance of the site is a ruse, very similar to soekris in this respect. the main difference from soekris is that there are no manufacturing costs, so can be "alive" for a price of couple of servers

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 05:16 mircea_popescu: esthlos whats a "modle" ?

esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835817 << you haven't heard? it's all the rage with the youth these days (esthlos needs to run a spellcheck phase) ☝︎

mats: a peltier teg looks ideal for the parasitic relay power plant ☟︎

mircea_popescu: esthlos whats a "modle" ? ☟︎

esthlos: btw, funny interaction in fiat world. dude: "so let me guess, you like lisp." esthlos: "wow, how did you get that?" dude: "well, you're a differential geometer" esthlos: "wow, ok" dude: "so you must like excel then" esthlos: "huh??" dude: "well, it's very similar to lisp"

mircea_popescu: not butchering the forefathers' work, specifically NOT doing inane miseries like http://trilema.com/2016/there-has-not-yet-been-seen-a-simple-thing-even-if-were-drowning-in-simple-people/ ; or like bowdler's "work" ; or like ~TRANSLATING THE SCRIPTURES~ is an important, perhaps the principal measurement of a culture. the fact that dante's work "is no longer relevant to italian society today" simply means "italian society toda

mircea_popescu: but still, i think the proper view of the matter is in the vein of how romans regarded testaments. because really, every published anything's a will.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:44 ave1: And the whole thing affirms the power/status of the Lords. I.E. when an author goes against a Lords wishes or AWOL it is then in the power of that Lord to contact another author and give him the source etc.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 21:10 BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!!

mircea_popescu: sovietism A LOT more adaptable, adapted self right into fucking grave, with a whole lotta "spreading works"

mircea_popescu: i always thought the 80s verbiage about "capitalism more adaptable" was a fucking riot.

asciilifeform: anecdote: asciilifeform's elder brother 'lived long enuff' to see sov arcades at length. the infamous 'sea battle' machine universally had a prize compartment, that would open if some outlandish score were achieved. one time, bag of coins, and he managed it. rusty compartment... grinds open. of course empty. arcade keeper 'what did you expect, didja really think you're the first'

mircea_popescu: or vice-versa, "here's your free plushie for throwing things at geese well, and a 0.03 bill for keeping the lights on"

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:01 mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit.

mircea_popescu: now ~a portion of that~ can very well be kicked back to client authors, if nothing else to cover the significant effort of eg a complete reskining. which'd give the player the benefit of "do i want to play this game looking like high fantasy or scandalous nudity"

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:13 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835611 << no ; the idea is that there will be separation between objective costs of running (passed on to the client in the shape of food necessities to keep character alive -- starve it long enough and it dies) and the implicitly risky nature of euloran activity. i don't want to get into detail here, but i believe it's the correct approach, allocation, rather than trying a pauschal approac ☝︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well i suppose this is basically the thing here -- a relaxation allowing specified mechanisms for a specified sort of "work in confidence" to still count.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 16:04 asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make

asciilifeform: right. hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835598 , some folx can justify to themselves the cost , then why not, pay . there are projects that asciilifeform keeps in zeroizable ram while decrypted. it's a bitch, but in some cases called for. ☝︎

hanbot: right, at what point is enemy that manages a pass an enemy, etc.

hanbot: anyway no, i don't see a way out of the "problem".

hanbot: asciilifeform : possibly code is concrete enough an itam to be perceived by previously blind enemies? if suddenly a gazillion diametrics/amstans/whoever, could get obnoxious too.

a111: Logged on 2015-11-16 21:01 ascii_field: would let you wander off to wherever spies go when a war is over. You know why?' he said. 'No,' I said. 'Because you could never have served the enemy as well as you served us,' he said. 'I realized that almost all the ideas that I hold now, that make me unashamed of anything I may have felt or done as a Nazi, came not from Hitler, not from Goebbels, not from Himmler — but from you.' He took my hand. 'You alone kept m

hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << one think i haven't seen mentioned yet is that this creates a potential security risk, inasmuch as there'd be a real incentive for bad actors to attempt working their way into l1 solely to gain access to source code. ☝︎

asciilifeform: if they 'cloink' , either result is the usual unremarkable crud a la the 'fg clone' , or it is a sane production, in the latter case author gets invited here . in the former case, what exactly does it do ? afaik nuffin

asciilifeform: didn't we also have a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687603 thread ? ☝︎

mircea_popescu: there IS such a thing as "you're too fucking stupid and unread to participate in THIS class. go take remedial deheadshittery 101."

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:42 asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'

mircea_popescu: i believe ; but it's a heuristic past its use by date.

mircea_popescu: i mean... so mocky makes a client, i see his client works, i allocate his binaries signatures, and now evilmocky does what ? doesn't follow server comms spec ? can't connect. is smart enough to follow them, and puts the work in ? can connect, server will report expected hashes. does he distribute this thing, so user can see the hash of his program and the hash the program tells the server don't match ? suppose he does. what n

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead.

mircea_popescu: right, because why am i paying the same % whether i wrote a hello world on top of their allegro or an ai.

asciilifeform: iirc it was (if 'industrial') a fixed cut of proceeds. which was imho asinine .

mircea_popescu: if you buy a gift certificate from walmart or w/e, it's for ~total cost~ not for ~item count~.

mircea_popescu: "well it's a different price if you intend to give her half your assets towards the end of your productive life or if you intend to make her salami"

mircea_popescu: otherwise, go ahead and make me a price on your daughter. "what do you plan on doing with her ?" "none of your damn business".

asciilifeform: i dun think i've ever bought a product more exhaustively specified than allegro

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l ☝︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: it is NOT FUCKING PERMISSIBLE to "love all your sons equally". fuck you, there is no such thing, that's for their dumbass mother, because she's too stupid to distinguish cocks (and btw, if your "monogamous" "wife" "loves all her children equally", time to start looking carefully at the milkmen, they contributed to that brood as a foregone conclusion.)

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 23:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ?

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835645 << I was just thinking that over a long enough time-span, sekrets tend to not stay sekret, that's all. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 17:15 mircea_popescu: but anyway, back to the upstream : https://archive.is/9zD8D#selection-9.3336-9.4865 the whole thing is rather damaging of bernstein's own standing and credibility. he engages in this sort of behaviours, he isn't much of a man, and certainly the sordid tale of his misbehaviour disabused me of any intention of rating him on the basis of his work.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835554 >> no, here we disagree. both rms AND ers lines of socialism (called "free" and "open" source in-universe) are attempting to bake in the conclusion of socialism ("everything that ever crawled out of a cunt is sacred") while allowing you to dispute the conclusions. i am not interested in their idiotic "disputations". the issue, with BOTH approaches, quite indistinguishably, is exactly ☝︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead. ☝︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:57 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835532 << yup, a very elegant item indeed. what the empire calls "embargo", essentially. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: ie, it worked because a) settlers were idiots (which they weren) and b) government was spurious (which it was).

mircea_popescu: the only known usage that's defensible is eg usg selling indian's land to white settlers ; and the reason it's defensible has nothing to do with anything here considered, and everything to do with the banal observation that some men are sexually stimulated by a simulacrum of resistence put up by woman.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder ☝︎☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835516 << you don't take my meaning. the machine doesn't care about your political corectness. it only sees those people involved that are actually people. if your dog shits in my lawn im not gonna complain to dog ; and if idiot miscompiles code into a pile of shit, the machine's mute sadness will not be directed at idiot. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:42 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921 <-- I'm sold on the idea i. in particular for eulora, and ii. otherwise for it to be established on a case-by-case basis. for (i), I see nothing wrong with e.g. challenging users to reverse-engineer the client (or maybe I'm just nostalgic about game cracking/trainers).

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:28 ave1: I find the 'if it can happen, it will happen' a strange argument. Let's say you let a friend stay in your house while you are away for a couple of months? Yes, he could destroy the house and steal the contents, still this arrangement works and has worked for many friends.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ? ☝︎☟︎

deedbot: mircea_popescu rated lobbes 3 at 2017/02/08 17:11:19 << eulora logs + auction bot, and altogether a very solid lordship candidate.

BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!! ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( observe that there is no reason why all of'em gotta answer to ~same~ l1 key. item oughta survive a defection or 2, if built correctly. )

asciilifeform: put a coupla dozen of these on each continent , and you get l1 'internet' .

asciilifeform: ( linked document is a riot, generous admixture of liberasty, dumbest possible architectural ??? , perl duct tape, junk electronics, etc )

asciilifeform: '...We ended up with a simple protocol packet: the Lulzpacket. This simple packet contains information to verify there was no corruption during the transmission and a random code to pseudo-identify the packet. We define the addresses of nodes in the net by their ability to decrypt a given packet. Addresses are derived from the hashes of asymmetric encryption keys, Every radio node defines its own address by the pair of keys it has ge

lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao ☝︎☟︎

diana_coman: the ~only scenario I could come up with re abusing that hash is where author of A that is less successful than known B decides somehow to distribute a doctored version of B that sends the hashes of A - it's already rather insane I'd say

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:36 diana_coman: it can of course dig into binaries and get the hashes from A or B and then pretend their own code IS A or B but ..so what? i.e. author of A or B will get more money, is that bad?

asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make ☟︎

asciilifeform: Mocky: this is a q for diana_coman ? ( as i understand, it is meant to make the use of obsolete (currently published) client , moar difficult )

asciilifeform: Mocky: see logs; my understanding is that there's to be a scheme for rewarding authors of successful authorized clients

asciilifeform: Mocky: it'd be a moar realistic description of what it is, yes.

diana_coman: I think you take those hashes to be an absolute promise of something; they are not; they are what they are (a mechanism, not an amulet!) and clearly stated; nobody pretends anything