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asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm 100% sold that one ~could~ build. would 1st have to devise a 50kg diesel, i've never seen one, even aside from the matter of water etc

mircea_popescu: it WOULD be economical if one actually aimed to collect your "i am being fucked for $100 bux on 100g"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this item would cost about 10k or so i guess, and it'd carry maybe 10kg or 10 liters of cargo, whichever smallest.

asciilifeform: at any rate i suspect that the problem is not wholly engineering problem, in the sense where, yes usg torpedo (for piddling 100km range) costs $mil, a ru torpedo -- $100k, but afaik nobody's built a $1 or even $10k thing-that-sails-8000km , in which to economically carry $1k of cargo

mircea_popescu: "i'm confused now... was the pink one your dildos and the gray one my books ?" "shit man... " "ok let's drop them overboard see which way they go again"

asciilifeform: i suspect that you'd get coupla sq. km. radius to search.

mircea_popescu: "how do i know this is mine ?" "is it where yours should be ?"

asciilifeform: i.e. it beacons ?

asciilifeform: i suspect that such a machine could be built.

mircea_popescu: the sea eats rubber. i hear that's why they don't have the toyota submerged cities yet.

phf: ave1: i missed your zfp_4 but added http://btcbase.org/patches/zfp_4_assert

asciilifeform: rright, but diesels as i know'em still gotta be dry in order to start again.

asciilifeform: i can think of several possible ways to make such a diesel, but afaik no such thing presently exists off-shelf, would have to make.

asciilifeform: would be killer item, as i understand lotsa yachters would buy

asciilifeform: or am i missing something

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i.e. ~torpedo ?

asciilifeform: ( fwiw i have nfi how many not-find, is q above asciilifeform's paygrade )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even for robotic ship, i suspect electric wins, with e.g. pv panels can have ~unlimited endurance, and quiet.

asciilifeform: if they're butt, who then front, i'm curious

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the columbian folx are at the forefront, as i understand, of this tech.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:19 asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:20 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, I am still waiting on a birthday card from February sent through the post

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:11 asciilifeform: betcha if i'd mailed'em wrapped in old newspaper in a standard letter envelope, you'd already have'em, and we could be fiddybux richer.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: via Officially blessed channels, i'd expect

asciilifeform: 'i represent $corp ! will call home, there will be problems '

mircea_popescu: what i meant by "mercantilism" is that they do not want the locals to leak dollars back into the ubers of the world. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i admit i was surprised to have been able to mail ~anyffing~ there, knew there gotta be a catch

asciilifeform: ( all i got so far is dusty tomes & hearsay , re subj )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm quite looking forward to learning the answer to 'how big packet'

mircea_popescu: i have nfi.

phf: i believe this might be a groundhog day thread

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd be entirely satisfied if it were a separate util, that came 'with' vtron, also.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 13:14 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the way i'd do the size shuffle, is to use a kindergarten prng (e.g. mersenne) for repeatable sequence, and put ~in~ the packets, a serial num. then simply record what comes out.

mircea_popescu: why would i have baked into vtron something that a) is unlikely to ever be used again, past this year and b) works much better in bash anyway and is rather trivial to do

mircea_popescu: phf i honestly thought ~everyone with half hour's interest does have the ~same dozen lines of bash, and so neve rsaid a word of it. i dunno why he doesn't.

phf: mircea_popescu: i have a set of tools like that on top of vpatch/vdiff, but they are entirely expressable as a 5-10 line shell scripts, and their variety is multitude "convert this sha set to keccak set" "see if these two sets press to same" "press all the intermediate states into separate folders" etc. etc. but i think what he's trying to get is a tool that will say "these keccaks are same as these shas so you don't have to reread"

asciilifeform: i can do it with shell ( as quoted from trb experiment list earlier ) easily enuff. but there is also the ~reader~ side, who wants to verify continuity.

asciilifeform: and can produce a keccak tree from a sha tree, with the exception of the seals, in such a way that i can be assured that i'm signing same material.

asciilifeform: my orig. worked for 3yrs nao in my own hands, but had obvious limitations, and i did not expect it'd live 4evah

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i long ago gave up trying to maintain 'the one and only vtron' lol

mircea_popescu: i always suspected alf wants to write this for himself by himself lest corruption ; but nothing wrong with published imago.

asciilifeform: a new operator ( no , i dun think we've seen the last of new sane folx, tho mircea_popescu may disagree ) oughta be in possession of the complete kit when he sets up his vtron.

asciilifeform: i put 9000 hrs into reading trb, i do not have these 9000 to do it exactly same again nao.

asciilifeform: where the machine bakes 'same tree, new hash algo' and errything else is bitwise-same, then i go an' unsheath launch coads, and bake new seals.

asciilifeform: ergo i'd like to make the operation mechanical, to the extent is reasonable.

asciilifeform: e.g. i can put out ch12 of ffa on keccak.

phf: mircea_popescu: no i think he's saying "try to hash in both formats and then make a guess if one of the formats succeed"

mircea_popescu: phf i just read his thing in terms of "explicit flag, k by default".

phf: asciilifeform: the approach that came out of last thread was "explicit flag", i.e. -t sha/keccak, but attempting to hash both then choosing one if one succeeds or bail as you suggested is not bad, though dwimy

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.

mircea_popescu: i dun want to hinder brains to serve computers.

asciilifeform: i'ma let phf clarify, otherwise it'll have to wait until i have a free hand and read his item properly, might be coupla days

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 1 other pill i was able to think of , was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851674 , but i dun expect you'll find it much better ☝︎

mircea_popescu: i currently dun know a pill for this ; but no new extensions, it's a terrible move.

mircea_popescu: this i believe is the only sane approach.

asciilifeform: i'm 100% in favour, so long as can use new file extension and not trip over own old patches. ( afaik phf's tool does not marry .vdiff string hardcodedly ? )

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Right, which means the next task is finding someone in DHL who can understand that. That I am a BUSINESS, man.

BingoBoingo: "personas fisicas" also get to make THREE compras de exterior without taxes provided they are under 200 U$S and 20 kilos which can be tracked here https://aplicaciones.aduanas.gub.uy/LuciapubX/DECLARACIONES.Cargas.HWCantEncPostales.aspx and only shows an incoming test parcel I've got inbound.

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: DHL's line at the level I engaged them so far is "Personas fisicas" get 2 dispatched "compras de exterior" paying tax and all that. In spite of more than two already making it through thus far DHL's niggers are stuck on this. But there's another level of insanity to this retardation.

nicoleci: wow you know, i was just about to say the same thing

asciilifeform: the pathology of current-day shit-engineering is imho twofold -- bureaucrats reacted to quack engineers, with poor upbringing, who 'i dun need no stinkin' spotter' by creating hybrid species , bureau-engineer, who 'i dun need no stinkin' book-larnin', i watched 'intro to rails' film' etc

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also suspect that this is why it requires at least 2 people. sorta how sniper worx 9000x better in pair with spotter.

nicoleci: diana_coman: i think its what hanbot calls the bathroom :)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that the 'blinders' are to some extent an immutable cost of the process, required for the directed thrust at $problem. sorta how knife is only sharp on 1 , at most 2 edges

a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:29 asciilifeform: kanzure: i and ~50 other folx, lost jobs, because it proved ~impossible to persistently force $valuableprotein secretion in ecoli

asciilifeform: i suspect if baking were an affair where ~erry~ yeast cell gotta agree, or nuffin happens , or at the very least a horror in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703881 , would resemble the engineer's toil ☝︎

mircea_popescu: profession ? i never yet that baker confused by the loaf of bread.

mircea_popescu: we talk about a pain. i go in with one idea, he examines and has a different idea. the quality of his examination is such that i yield in the process, and gladly. look that indeed, clinical practice does something, it's evident he's got a better scent than i had.

mircea_popescu: understand how professional medicine is : i am myself, and this fellow is a most eminent specialist in his field, with decades of practice in the us, and in his entire being as perfectly intellectually respectable as i could ever ask for.

nicoleci: mircea_popescu: ahh i see.

mircea_popescu: i JUST DID lmao

diana_coman: ahahah, I can see where she's coming from

nicoleci: may i also point out that its a very engineer thing to say, actual engineer

asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised that even webirc worx on that thing

asciilifeform: i.e. stock c101?

nicoleci: and suffering i am using a chromebook of all things..

nicoleci: mircea_popescu: sure i will do so, thats a good suggestion.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd say this formulation describes bureaucrat, not engineer, but yes i am aware that they've recently hybridized into a strange mule species, bureau-engineer

asciilifeform: i'd give a morse key.

mircea_popescu: diana_coman right you are indeed. i take it you're also familiar ?

asciilifeform: what's she logged in with nao, i wonder, morse key ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've toiled in cages where even gsm barely penetrated, not even speaking of cables, so i can picture.

asciilifeform: how did it happen, i cant resist to ask ? hanbot's duck ate cable ?

asciilifeform: hmm i thought nicoleci is self-voicing

mircea_popescu: i don't think she dares ask, partly because she spent most of her life with engineers and partly because check out how irrational the process became the moment she showed up. this not common, this, freebased cvasicriticism, in the annals.

diana_coman: tbh if I were to critique her summaries I'd start pretty much from same point as with the 5yo i.e. the way they are know they read as if she doesn't actually have any idea what those terms she uses there mean even at a basic level and she doesn't even flag them as such (i.e. "hey, this afiejif wtf is it???"); to the extent that it all ends up as mechanical re-phrasing, it's quite stupid

asciilifeform: PeterL: as i currently understand : yes. but ideally this simple mechanism would be in the tool, rather than a http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html - style shell hack.

mircea_popescu: just because i humiliate her, in this as in so many ways, she has to publish her struggle, dun mean it's somehow categorically different. erryone has piles of "this is what i understand of y"

asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform reads things he dun fully understand, all day, erry day, i dun disagree.

diana_coman: all I insist on is that he either asks someone or otherwise check in dict for words he doesn't yet know

diana_coman: heh, if I'd insist my child read *only* what he understood, he couldn't possibly read ~anything!

mircea_popescu: and kindergarten academy of science bla bla. i have children read shakespeare and why shouldn't i.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun disagree.

mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol. ☟︎☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: by all means, formulate it as "bitch, you're fucking stupid", but formulate it in some manner i can get behind.

asciilifeform: i'ma formulate all subsequent ones as ' s/foo/bar ', as i do for BingoBoingo

mircea_popescu: i dun see a problem with criticism, but it gotta be criticism. it gotta critique. "this, specifically ~this~ is wrong" "that, exactly that, is missing". something.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma leave it there, after all the chix is yer student, not mine

mircea_popescu: this isn't going to become a monthly cycle, is it ? "i don't like this vtree" "do you have a patch ?" "no, i just don't like it" "well... come back with a patch"