log☇︎
14900+ entries in 0.13s
asciilifeform will post a scan once he gets a decent exposure, this may not be today, aint a priority item
asciilifeform: it remains a serious wtf to me : think, bolix had ecc.
asciilifeform: ( btw there was to be a demo unit of same in the 1st crate, but did not fit masswise )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apu is something rather like a x64 rk.
mircea_popescu: basically there's not much room for middle here. either rk or else monster -- even things such as shared hosting are better off on large x86 server than a bunch of mid ones
mircea_popescu: yeah, but... if you'rte gonna beef-server, might as well get a 32 core monster.
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem like the end of the world to "can't thread properly" on a 4 core box.
asciilifeform: ( this is somewhat of a black art, it is probably possible to come up with a benchmark where the rk wins )
asciilifeform: so asciilifeform leans to installing a qty of x64 boxen of roughly same cost profile as rk ( but with added bonus that they eat sata drives ) : apu1. these also have bonus of published electrical schematic and custom asciilifeform bios from src.
asciilifeform: what we have this wk, is a 'sjlj-gnat dun go on arm64'. i dun expect this is a permanent disease, but i do expect it'll take time to fix, esp. if asciilifeform has to do with own 2hands. until then, rk cluster is stuck with the obsolete compiler ( which runs e.g. 'lamp stack' and even zcx-gnat , but obv. won't run the emerging standard sjljistic one until fix. )
mircea_popescu: i was looking for that pic a whole ago, you know. "where's the one with the bunch of them huddled together like so manby peasantsa"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ty, will take a look shortly, 1st would like to macroexpand mircea_popescu's point
BingoBoingo: What a coon
a111: Logged on 2019-01-15 15:32 asciilifeform: it is also time to speak of the next crate. and the customary four cargo slots. 1 is to contain a replacement for uy1 ( and ideally will run cuntoo . ) 1 will contain a 1u that holds rk's. this gives 2 1u slots remaining, they can be occupied by colo passengers, if these stand up and wish to ride , or pizarro irons, at BingoBoingo's option.
asciilifeform: re capacity : also needs discussion. currently considering rk array (1u), two x64 boxen of dulap type, and additionally a set of apu1d4 (see logs, or https://archive.is/8JBbH ) .
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'll have a list of targets tonight
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo mircea_popescu has point : are you gonna produce a list of spammees, or just what is it you have hands full with, and asciilifeform has to dredge the net with own hands and halt all other work ?
bvt: hello. quick report: i bootstrapped avegnat using asciilifeform's tar (thanks!), had to change the the paths in linker scripts and la-files, will make a post on that.
asciilifeform: and hrm, loox like we still dun have a genesis for this thing
asciilifeform: ( currently it's a 4hr build, lol )
mircea_popescu: it's such a wonder to me that thing links.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this run is a test of bvt's 'kill weaksymbol-ism' pill
asciilifeform: i'ma put whole thing in a signed manifest
mircea_popescu: this is a good idea. put the hashes somewhere and there you go.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897858 -> ah, so broken links were only in the older versions? anyway: ave1 please do me a favour and point any fetch/download scripts to a mirror of the stuff on your own website, there is no way around this. For one thing I'd much rather download from a republican site and for the other as experience has already amply shown, any external site WILL move them, change them, drop them and it will at best br ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:27 feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 03:18 asciilifeform set up a rebuild of ave1 gnat (june) on dulap, with http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/comment-page-1/#selection-163.2-167.52 . tomorrow will see what came out of this.
mircea_popescu: maybe he could do a duet with michael.
asciilifeform set up a rebuild of ave1 gnat (june) on dulap, with http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/comment-page-1/#selection-163.2-167.52 . tomorrow will see what came out of this. ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:27 feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection
asciilifeform was in a public place where tv on the wall, and guess what was shown : mccain. apparently not dead enuff ( 'freshly uncrated' taped blather, near as i could tell. )
BingoBoingo: Guy sounds a lot like Jack, stuck trying to raise his wife's son.
asciilifeform: ( this is where i point out, that the fabled 'sane iron' isn't simply a purely aesthetic win to ticke asciilifeform's aestheticles, but in fact substantially cuts down on the complexity of ~all other sane items~ that are to stand on top of it )
asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: ftr much easier for a sane iron ( with small instruction set ) like mips, than for x86.
asciilifeform: the other thing that makes backend a bitch is that ~100% of the work has to be done again and again, for each iron.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend. ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: potentially retargetable. but currently nfi if this is a useful shortcut to 'bake a backend'
asciilifeform: could propose that there is a (3) , if one of the closed $maxint winshit adas actually implemented own, rather than stealing gcc's
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, i suspect there are a grand total of ~two~ ada back ends in existence : 1) the Official adacorpse one , sewed out of gcc ( the 'fsf gnat' is simply old copy of same )
mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: A large number of the folks who did or in the past would have started a forum are in the Google/Youtube hugbox or similar "watermelon farms"
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm "knocking" on a few doors. The "polite way" hasn't been very productive, so the rapeful way is appearing very necessary. Haven't hear anything from the "Proud Boys", excess of ego appears to be a defect of the dwindling population of forum operators.
asciilifeform: i linked the udp thing for a reason -- wrappers inescapably look like 'chunk of c', cuz headerola.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, All these names that had burned out completely before I showed up a few months later. History!
BingoBoingo: Apparently a UStard seriously underestimating what he paid in total taxes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897763 << currently ada depends on a layer of c to do basic things such as abort. this can not stand, esp if we want an ada machine. that writing to irq table will have to happen through ada code, not calling c. ☝︎
asciilifeform: afaik none of'em, however (with possible exception of sgi's) have semantics such that multiple processors dun share a bottleneck at the interrupt controller
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, when asciilifeform speaks of 'iron babel', interrupts are a screamingly concrete example : there is ~no uniformity b/w archs re how they're implemented (does it save regs ? which ? what happens if two interrupts temporally near ? ) or how many , or for what devices, etc )
mircea_popescu: also, subtle point in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897708 bears belabouring : the point is to standardize ~the tools~, not necessarily (in order) their usage, or end products. the idea is for user to know what to expect if builting a tmsr box, and why he expects that, not necessarily what he can do with it. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:26 asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class.
asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class. ☟︎
asciilifeform: that being said, sjlj is apparently totally broken on arm gcc currently, and if want a threaded proggy on e.g. rk, currently stuck with zcx
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the 1 use case i can picture for zcx, is on ultracompact irons. but even there, really, are we gonna use a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895612 somewhere ?! ☝︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if it aint a seekrit: didja ever try building client on musl ?
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform is for instance at this very moment sitting on a glibcistic gentoo box, but where all tmsr soft is musltronic )
asciilifeform: i expect that i'm even doomed to open a book and see how the fuck arm64 worx.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform getting an aarch64 musl sjlj going will be a fun task.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the caveat is that i still dunhave a working cuntoo for all asciilifeform-operated irons; e.g. rk is still running barbaric old glibc gentoo
asciilifeform: rather than continuing in a babelized gnat with 'pick yer threader, pick yer stdlib' etc
asciilifeform: 'd' is arguably mis-statement of problem, a threadless proggy incorporates ~neither~ system
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cuntoo is arguably a realtime test lab for 'what does removing glibc from ~errything~ cost'
asciilifeform: re 'e', i can't picture what'd move anyone with two neurons to rub together to maintain a glibc, that'd be rather like starting a trb from prb 12 (or what is current one)
mircea_popescu: e. something else (among which possible e.1. someone reads and implements dwarf properly ; e.2. someone picks a glibc to grandfather and dedicates himself to cleaning and fixing.)
mircea_popescu: a. we make no standard, every man for his own, but : a.1. ada is the preferred language ; a.2. musl is the preferred standards provider ; a.3. zcx is the preferred exception mechanism ; a.4. static is the preferred build mode. this should come with a design process for candidates evaluation for standardization.
asciilifeform: they didn't include a word x word mul that gives you both halves. why not ? 'oh not all irons have a mul instr.'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: near as i can tell , zcx is a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897558 , it attempts to implement multiprocess on ~all~ machines, incl. ones that dun have any support for interrupts (e.g http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895612 ) ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
mircea_popescu: and i thought, naivity of naivities and unexamined infantilism of unexamined infantilisms, that sjlj is a quaint artefact of slow yore, meanwhile supplanted by more modern, better alternatives.
mircea_popescu: afaik everybody up until a week ago when http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895231 nobody even compiled ada other than zcx. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: yes, no glibc was in fact a preference, and we got it out, of trb, of eulora, etc. no argument there.
asciilifeform: i dun think anyone's compressed it into a compact chronology of yet
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was a ~3 month thread
asciilifeform: this was a 2015 find. after which asciilifeform immediately proceeded to get glibc the hell out of trb.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. but to my knowledge to date musl was a preference rather than a standard. we never said "no more glibc linking" as we said eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: in any case, this is a major decision / inflexion point, and we truly need all hands on deck for this, i'm not equipped with the right chicken darts to throw at guts / read feathers thereof.
asciilifeform: this is theoretically fixable. the sad part tho is that gcc is a potentially ~bottomless well of these.
mircea_popescu: so leaving hardware alone, "zombie thread because northbridge went south" etc -- we still need a linking scheme that works.
mircea_popescu: is a good start.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the real q is , what subset of the claimed extant functionality adds up to a programming environment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'house explodes when i turn on the hydrogen faucet' 'why do you have a hydrogen faucet ?'
mircea_popescu: cute, but not useful. we gotta have a programming environment, not a programming cardboard.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the issue is to come up with a linking scheme we can actually use.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 asciilifeform: the avionics people seem to use it, but they (near as i was able to learn) dun kill tasks at all, and regard any detected wedge as a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895456 condition
mircea_popescu: amir taaki is a dude who was trying to pimp his underage sister ten years ago. that's all, what the fuck already.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's unifying theory, is that living in c ecosystem turns ~all~ inhabitants, after enuff yrs, into a kind of rms; sorta like black lung of coal miner )
mircea_popescu: (the sister in question being the 15yo http://trilema.com/2012/amir-taaki-has-done-and-continues-to-do-huge-disservice-to-anyone-serious-involved-in-bitcoin/ schmuck was trying to sell for bitcoins as a "totally legit enterpreneurial enterprise" coupla years priors)
asciilifeform: and all of this sepsis, comes from machine where there aint (and cannot be) any such thing as global symbol space, where pointer does not store any info re wtf it points to, nor does a block of code know that it is a block of code , nor lolcat gif knows that it is an array, etc
mircea_popescu: " /* Take care to ignore link-once functions that were removed. In these cases, the function address will be NULL, but if the encoding is smaller than a pointer a true NULL may not be representable. Assume 0 in the representable bits is NULL. */"
mircea_popescu: what, i get the luxury of a door lock but programming environment must take all comers ?
asciilifeform: i.e. mircea_popescu actually knows that it dun need a deep fryer cuz wtf , it cannot be spontaneously filled with mcd eaters
mircea_popescu: you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yer kitchen is a closed system , in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897470 sense ☝︎
mircea_popescu: but i do know what's typical in at least some cases. which is why my kitchen doesn't have a fast food counter.
asciilifeform: it's 'sound tradeoff' until it aint (e.g. you have system where 'allcomers' can trigger a grep on a data set they crafted, and yer box grinds to a halt )
mircea_popescu: are you discussing the specific case of grep there ? because i do believe it's a sound tradeoff.
asciilifeform: ( with the bonus lul, that sometimes somebody walks in with a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , and then simply has to 'unhappen' )
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected, but it's my ex girl