log☇︎
14800+ entries in 0.126s
asciilifeform: iirc orig ver had a working ( x86, no x64 ) backend, and weighted 200kB or so in src .
mircea_popescu: i was trying a tongue in cheek, "yes, now it has more code and less functionality, but it follows whatever trend of insanity".
asciilifeform: it's a sisyphian proposition.
asciilifeform: but worth a shot ( tho asciilifeform's track record for 'write 'im a mail' is currently abysmal )
mircea_popescu: sounds like he did a lot of the same stuff here contemplated. shoot fellow an arrow maybe ? is he old ?
asciilifeform: he had a kernel-building compiler in coupla 1000 loc .
a111: Logged on 2019-01-16 02:24 mod6: This all started because we need a new door, it's old as shit, and all the weather stripping is bad, etc. So of course, this isn't std door size. So I paid some good money to have a custom one made to size. When the carp came out to install it, the first thing he did was pull off one piece of molding, and stuck his file down in the bottom area where that joist is located, and it pushed right through.
asciilifeform: a la mpi etc
asciilifeform: granted. sorta why i said 'it's a trb'
asciilifeform: q is, do you actually ~want~ a thing that shits out 200kB of peepholed x86 ??? for 'hello world' .
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:41 mircea_popescu: it seems rather obvious that the 2020-2025 republican future will consist of a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897560 http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897468 etc as we unwind the "optimizing" part in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897829 and discover a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897689 and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897536
mircea_popescu: anyway, to land this far going baloon : currently, the large chunk of sanification work will likely still be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898113 ; there's no way to have a world without a backend, there's no way to learn how to build one without unpacking the only one that exists, and so on. ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( btw if anyone else sees a dead link, plox to write in , i do fix )
mircea_popescu: moreover -- b is actually a major spot of research, because we don't even exactly know WHAT we will set down as "must be / must not be".
mircea_popescu: it's independent of a, because if it turns out all iron fails math we'll dump all iron, not re-write math.
asciilifeform: 'proper primitives' is not independent of a) what backing iron b) what operator expects to ride on top (langs, memory management style) tho.
mircea_popescu: and i'm saying that a) both approaches share a lot of overlap (you say no, but you agree next line that conceptually, field is broken -- that is overlap!!! you just agreed!)
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the obvious alternative, factually there as holes follow fills and so on, is "approach from code end". and this approach'd be something like a ~proper~ standards lib. ie, both with proper access and proper primitives.
mircea_popescu: but back to it, let's try and use different terms : i deem your "whole thing is an emu, in machine lang, bios boots into it" to be a "approach from machine end".
mircea_popescu: which is the point, it's a waste of time to consider "how linus separated" or "how rms thought should be separated". whoile thing's built on magic musherooms, "sky quadrants" etc.
asciilifeform: so happens that i have a page re subj : http://www.loper-os.org/?p=256 .
mircea_popescu: anyway, i think i fully understand what you mean re "no compiler, no linker" : it is evidently a broken situation when you have TWO patsh from "what master said" to "what machine does".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm aware, evolved not designed. nevertheless, the fundamental breakage here is that glibc is proposed as a "library" rather than a "kernel mod". not that these terms make any fucking sense anyway, but what the fuck am i gonna do.
asciilifeform: the central imho open q is, how much of the iron's retardation can be kept out of such a system.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in pctardation land, it's a consequence of the (massively failed, historically) attempt to hack around the fact that erry peripheral has free run of entire bus
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the large problem here is that the ast will have to be ultimately a homomorphism of machine language. which is the dubious part in the "emulator" pov.
mircea_popescu: to follow the logic : the notion that you'd have a kernel mod to interface with peripherals, but not with code, is somewhat bizarre.
mircea_popescu: terminology fails, mostly because terminology was made by morons and we're trying to discuss analysis in roman numerals here, but consider "glibc" would be a... well i guess a kernel mod the program links against as a library ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's hypothesis, is that it is only worth to add a layer if you can remove dozen by doing so
asciilifeform: it's a forced failure, in the sense that it is imposed by trying to be a layer on top of os, rather than os per se
mircea_popescu: ie, the fact that glibc doesn't come with sane memory allocator ~is a failure of glibc~.
mircea_popescu: then again this whiole discussion is moot, because step 1 towards that magical bios asm blob is a tmsr standards lib to replace glibc anyway.
mircea_popescu: the 2nd gets linked in however many binaries you wish, still is a single item.
asciilifeform: consider from pov of 'what is total mass of binary that has to be audited'. in which case is the mass smaller : where there are 9000 bins on the machine, each consisting 90% of a coupla MB of 'bounds check this array' and 'propagate this exception' ? or if the 1 runtime does these, and the bins -- invoke.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's never cheaper to have a coupling than a straight link. nevertheless, couplings are used.
mircea_popescu: other than this, the "we don't want to fuck our brains with $bad-arch" is a dead end -- you will, whether to write gcc for it or to write bios for it.
asciilifeform: i suspect that it's a ~smaller~ problem than 'bake 17 sane gcc-like back-ends'
asciilifeform: it's a quite serious set of open problems, many documented by asciilifeform in the log (e.g. how to drive nic?)
mircea_popescu: understand tho, it has a very visible facet of wishful thinking. i mean yes, obviously, way the fuck better to have all the needful stuff in one place than added to each binary. this much is certain. nevertheless, the notion that you can stuff a converter from insanity to sanity "in the bios" requires just as much a magical stone as any other "universal sanity-insanity bridge".
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:57 asciilifeform: the Right Thing will look roughly like a 256kB chunk of asm that the box boots straight into, and afterwards forgets that it's an x86, arm, etc.
asciilifeform: i suppose if suit already brought, likely there's already a thiel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wouldn't this require a thiel to show up to bankroll $kid's suit ?
BingoBoingo: Recently (within the past two months) WaPo's slate magazine hired one of the more flamboyant Gawker alumni to do a "sex column" with some burnt out porn chick turned old woman
BingoBoingo: Se extraño a toxicodendron
mircea_popescu: apparently the dogs can learn to give it a berth. great perfume too
asciilifeform maintains a kind of purgatory for these , in #a, and it is quite cheap on acct of the fact that usually only takes'em a coupla hrs to realize that no, this aint the fungal farm, fungal farm is three doors down, and then go to where their place is.
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing a reign of terror, merely intolerance.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:37 mircea_popescu: actually when Mocky_ is done with qatar history, maybe he regales us with a summarized java history ~from inside~ on his blog.
mircea_popescu studiously and quite deliberately ignored the whole thing as a wikitarida/reddit of its time.
mircea_popescu: actually when Mocky_ is done with qatar history, maybe he regales us with a summarized java history ~from inside~ on his blog. ☟︎
asciilifeform: yer still stuck with certain idjicies of iron (e.g. dma) but then when finally bake new iron, you have a ready compiler & userland to plant on it, that actually behaves.
asciilifeform: the Right Thing will look roughly like a 256kB chunk of asm that the box boots straight into, and afterwards forgets that it's an x86, arm, etc. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, every useless 30something female with crotch rot under fluorescent lighting, also "is doing a lot of work" because she "feels" so ?
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit some insane nonsense "feels like" it's doing "a lot of work". the work done is measured at the useful end.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:43 mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
asciilifeform: this'd cost, yes, some % of horsepower, but in exchange gets a 100klok toolchain instead of millions of ??? loc
asciilifeform: really oughta have ~1~ compiler, and for a sane arch; and if yet cannot afford to actually siliconize the sane arch, then the sad iron oughta be booting straight in bios to a compact (asmistic) emulator of same ☟︎
mircea_popescu: certainly it will have to come before any kind of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897705 job, because very strictly speaking you can't write a working user enviroment on top of extant gcc. ☝︎
asciilifeform: it's a standard 'spittoon in one strand' : for so long as you retain ~any of the c liquishit, yer stuck with gcc ( which is the only thing that builds it , the 'portability' of the lang is a fiction from day 1 )
mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: maybe 98. but in any case, the only discernible reason anyone uses it is that everyone is, individually, too lazy to write a proper one.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:42 asciilifeform: ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
mircea_popescu: it seems rather obvious that the 2020-2025 republican future will consist of a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897560 http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897468 etc as we unwind the "optimizing" part in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897829 and discover a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897689 and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897536 ☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform sees linux kernel, gcc, ftr, as 'life support' item, rather like trb -- worth freezing and maintaining until proper replacement, but not really items with a serious future
a111: Logged on 2015-01-10 06:25 asciilifeform: mats: gcc... a) i dont get it... << what's the hard concept here? rms wishes to avoid gcc turning into a sweet and defenceless piece of candy for the 'embrace & extend/extinguish' folks.
mircea_popescu: the computing 90s are soon to be just a memory, as these artefacts of sheer wtf slowly disappear.
asciilifeform: linus specifically opposed making a stable one
asciilifeform: vfication is a 'not whether, but when'(tm)(r)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:24 mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises.
mircea_popescu: at the worst this'll get us a nibler notion of the gcc tree.
asciilifeform: i.e. if digging up a vintage kernel, would also have to take up the gcc from the period, or backport the current one, as i understand
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 01:00 trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 04:54 mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it."
mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it." ☟︎
mircea_popescu: "C++ is philosophically and cognitively unsound as it forces a violation of all known epistemological processes on the programmer."
nicoleci: in latest http://trilema.com/2013/its-been-an-epic-few-days-what-happened/#selection-453.43-453.86 news, google plus is being shut down " due to low usage and challenges involved in maintaining a successful product".
mircea_popescu: from now on, "compatibility through doing things a ~certain~ way, for good and ~well explained~ reasons".
trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use ☟︎
trinque: later this can inform a process of muntzing shit off the kernel
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/socialist-mooches-striking-second-year-in-a-row-seeking-to-put-bigger-portion-of-wv-budget-in-their-pockets/ << Qntra -- Socialist Mooches Striking Second Year In A Row Seeking To Put Bigger Portion Of WV Budget In Their Pockets
shinohai: This trb addy I just generated for a payment: 1HANBox41dKXNhmdXsPgoYbbJgBqp86sCq "hanbox" lol
bvt: trinque: booted just fine after messing with kernel config a bit, which is expected from a previously not used machine
asciilifeform: ^ for bonus lulz, it wasn't the 'iso std d&d fireball' but the http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-1021.79-1025.1 thing, from what i gather was a 'mortal combat' clone of some type
asciilifeform: recall, thrd where 'is it possible to make a bag of rngola that 1) exists in 2 copies 2) cannot be quickly read in transit to destination'
asciilifeform considered this yrs ago as a possible onetimepad scheme , but not satisfied that it could be repeatable enuff for digitize
BingoBoingo: Well, it isn't unthinkable that 70 kg of deathray ends up being a fairly common castle ammenity
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/xray/dead_samsung_35kv_100s.jpg << to complete yest. thrd : the least rubbishy shot of the dead samsung. steel shell prolly calls for a scintillator screen , and large film, to actually get decent shot. but even here usbistic contacts sorta visible.
asciilifeform: that was btw a 35mm film. instrument can eat 35x35 ~cm~, for ~100x magnification.. ( i just dun have any on hand atm )
BingoBoingo: Also, local mystery in the barrio La Commercial https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/una-lluvia-de-disparos-y-el-terror-de-una-familia-de-tener-a-un-profugo-en-su-casa--201921819212
ave1: Btw asciilifeform, I had to switch my cheap NFS account to a more expensive one as php 5.6 is no longer supported in their new setup. I expect that sometime, at the end of this year, 5.6 will also disappear from "production" sites.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 08:56 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897858 -> ah, so broken links were only in the older versions? anyway: ave1 please do me a favour and point any fetch/download scripts to a mirror of the stuff on your own website, there is no way around this. For one thing I'd much rather download from a republican site and for the other as experience has already amply shown, any external site WILL move them, change them, drop them and it will at best br
BingoBoingo: But A++ Penetration
ave1: asciilifeform, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897899, a genesis of the build scripts or gcc?, with the build scripts we'll get diffs of diffs (which should work now) ☝︎
trinque: asciilifeform: iirc last thing I built was in portage proper, built atop musl. this was probably a late and fungal version number
BingoBoingo: It has been a while. Turns out he got a job of sorts at a Confiteria. Sleeps in an actual bed most nights now. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: In other news, taking my walk tonight I got the celebrity treatment for ~3 minutes. A group of local youth in the city for back to school asked me for directions and were thrilled to discover in Gringo in the wild who could indeed offer directions.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896360 << far better than I could've said it, but yes. your "from cause" is foundational for sanity, let alone republic. I gather some have taken "sanity" as a term of art there, not the literal meaning. ☝︎
asciilifeform: re ^ -- the steel shell is a bitch, will need tuning for kv. but for demo purposes, the FG analogue board photo ~did~ come out pretty well, will scan it when it dries.
asciilifeform: will also be interesting at some pt to roast a ~working~ ssd; in theory soft xray eats ssd