134200+ entries in 0.077s
mircea_popescu: "and if everyone had a fucking log where
the fuck would mit ever find space
to pretend it matters"
mircea_popescu: no but look. how
the fuck can anyone at mit even stand, or for
that matter sleep at night. WHERE IS
THE LOG
mircea_popescu: anyway,
the recently linked kay interview struck me as exactly
this : "check out
the retarded monkey, discussing 1960s ex memoria. no wonder he sounds like an idiot"
mircea_popescu: and why i didn't come
to
the same conclusion as alf, "more memory is better". not for me, i have enough for what i use it for.
mircea_popescu: so
this, i would count, as
the foremost and most notable application of
tractor
to IA. logs.
mircea_popescu: essible
to
the man captive in "either you remember it AS IT WAS or IT IS LOST FOREVER!!")
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 21:32 mircea_popescu: in any case ; i am notorious for a very poor memory, including complete inability
to remember say actresses names.
mircea_popescu: and "here's what i remember of what phf and alf said 15
to 45 years ago" is not nearly
the same
thing
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, MIT/symbolics concerned
themselves with
these
things
too (the whole "presentation" concept is
that of a entity
that's equivalent between code, internal presentation and inline rendering)
BingoBoingo: In other pressing but not essentials:
The fellow at
the datacenter meeting confirmed my suspicions, I have seen few Argentinos in Montevideo porque Argentina es un pais pobre.
mircea_popescu: if
this was ever discussed at all, it was discussed
thrity years ago at parc or w/e.
mircea_popescu: more importantly :
these are
things which were never discussed publicly, nor does
there exists
this system where "ideal pollution of machinery is attemptedly measured
to be reduced".
mircea_popescu: anyway. while neither pressing nor essential,
these are important considerations. we see.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would be useful in
thatparticular application fo sho.
mircea_popescu: but
the general problem, "how polluting machine genreators HAVE
to be and how would
they not be" is a very important point
mircea_popescu: because obviously fp jitter & c will drive every human up
the wall. but
then again having
the generator not generate it prolly requires work. and so on.
mircea_popescu: a large portion of what's being studied
there is just how feasible a "quiet" producer of svg is
phf: , or whatever else of
that nature
phf: ental
to understanding. if on
the other hand
the language we make is designed
to be authored by hand, and is authored lightly assisted by
tooling,
then
there's opportunity and a kind of cognitive pull for
the author
to make
the changes as meaningful as possible. i'm basically ok with working somewhere on
that spectrum, but i was preemptively ranting against
the kind of patches
that communicate nothing but accidental floating point jitter of
the graphic
phf: mircea_popescu: i
think
that's when one of
those arguments where poking at it we discover
there's no any substantial disagreement. i
think we're
thinking of same
thing but from slightly different direction. i was
thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc.
to lay out and modify objects. in
that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 05:49 mircea_popescu: let's
try and understand
this : running a house without a bipedal dishwasher, either in personam or as
the role only,
to be filled by whichever of
the available persons according
to some (arbitrary, male-oppressive-phalocentric, etc) criteria results in
the situation where you gotta pay 3 cents whenever you use a fork. what has been saved ?
mircea_popescu: as
to
the narrowed down " it's not any kind of understanding
to repeat computers work by hand
to recreate
that svg" << it may not be. but it may well be.
the fundamental problem with "time can be but wasted" is
that
there are no categorical cuts available. spinoza polished lenses and miller worked for
the cosmoccocic company. deciding aforehand what
tractor work is worth doing by hand is notoriously and
to
this day
the chief
mircea_popescu: yeah, we're
three people
talking
three disjunct
things here. let's come
to common ground.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform
the "no ---/+++" went away in discussion last round, when phf's notational view prevailed
mircea_popescu: ye, here we have regular (this is important) and high volume (also important) hose. and people do irregular (not just as
time) and low volume, so
this is categorically differentiable from all other patches.
phf: mircea_popescu: no no, unrelated
to
the current actual svg experiment
mircea_popescu: phf i
thought i said explicitly
the proposed patching of svg is merely
TO
TEST
the patching system from a diff perspectrive.
phf: your argument is
that careful work aids in understanding, my argument is
that when a computer spits out 30mb svg, it's not any kind of understanding
to repeat computers work by hand
to recreate
that svg
mircea_popescu: i
thought it was merely whether
they can impose constraint at all.
mircea_popescu: or maybe we've lost
track of what we're arguing here. what's
the argument ?
phf: i
think you're
trying
to cut with a broad sword, where scalpel is required
mircea_popescu: phf so i
take it you much preferred classical
to analytical geometry in school ?
mircea_popescu: hence, nothing
to be ashamed of. but ALSO can't just pretend it ain't
there lalala.
mircea_popescu: it is a very naive notion
this, "i don't need
to, i understand". you, odds aren, don't, and
this isn't something
to be ashamed of.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-11 20:01 diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw I read it as in went
through it line by line and with pencil and paper; ran it
too at
the end, played a bit around with
tests and
that; and since we are at
this, nitpick: in FZ_Swap why
T:=X if already initialised at declaration or what am I missing of Ada in
there?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:24 diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg:
the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT
then it goes on and calls is_prime on
that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
phf: well,
that goes back
to
the meaning question. with code i don't get ascii codes as ints and
then have
to paper out
the actual
text before i can work out meaning. in fact what i do put on paper is almost never related
to
the written code itself. in
the case of mechanical graphics
though, my first step is ascii-to-characters
mircea_popescu: "no i don't need
to" "why do you
think
this ?" "stop bothering me,
troll."
phf: break out
that rule paper and work out
the graphics like a man
mircea_popescu: just like you can read
the svg and miss
the EVIDENT implication.
mircea_popescu: people read
the same bit of code 500
times and still miss
the EVIDENT bounds error.
mircea_popescu: yes you can derive meaning, and of
the exact same kind in both cases. but you flatter yourself with
that kind being "true meaning" in
the first case because you can, and you can't in
the second so you don't.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not sure
that was my idea :) restating what i'm
trying
to say is
that i can derive meaning out of vpatch by reading it, but i'm not sure i can likewise derive meaning out of a svg diff by simply reading it. i suppose
the assumption here is
that svg was produced and edited by computer means, where imposing meaning on
the sequence of modifications is not
the primary (and often
tricky) concern
mircea_popescu was doing
typography at some point, did some reading on
the scholarlity of it.
mircea_popescu: there was some discussion as
to
the history of
typographical ideas in
the log somewhere
phf: also has nice
treatment in e.g. sicp
mircea_popescu: phf was your idea
that "well maybe you just don't have a very clear picture of what x was in
the first place, gotta press
to it" ? ie, accumulating mental errors over
the patch flow
to GET
TO x ?
trinque: asciilifeform: link for
teh poor youfs?
mircea_popescu: but
the entirety of what vpatch is, is "here's what changed from node x
to node y"
phf: you don't necessarily need
to go from state
to state, you can understand
the nature of change by reading
the vpatch
mircea_popescu: how do you go from state
to state other
than
through a diff/patch ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i
think
the differ and rendered for
the ~diffs~ is significantly different from what our current foundation is. so in principle i don't see an issue with svg, as long as you can get
the ~diff~ out of
the vpatch itself, rather
than say, pressing original, pressing new and
then eyeballing
the differences.
mircea_popescu: this isn't for going
to war with ;
this is for checking out
the
tool(s) with.
mircea_popescu: but
the idea is, getting an automated patch process going may
throw a different light on
this whole
thing and
turn out most informative.
trinque: could sure; I'd have
to inspect
the svg and see if it's readable. it's coming out of graphviz.
mircea_popescu: guy could actually publish
the item as a succession of patches, and speaking of
this : hey
trinque, could you be enticed
to actually genesis
that item, and patch it weekly ?
mircea_popescu: whereas when it comes
to clearsigned matter, you CAN find yourself in a b and a is not applicable.
mircea_popescu: nobody will EVER find
themselves in
the situation of BOTH a) hurr durr, i am at leisure now let me make a patch and b) o noes, i am in distress now, can not run basic machinery.
phf: i supper proper presentation of fg schematics in a v-tron is either in
the style of
the marine chronometer book i have next
to me or not at all. "taking first
the essentials, c is
the escape wheel.
the escapement consists of
the bar E, carrying
the
two projections e, e' etc". everything else ought
to be handled separately
☟︎ mircea_popescu: where i can change
the DISCRETE data bits independently ; as well as
their adnotation.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 16:33 mircea_popescu:
trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph"
transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0)
translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ?