log☇︎
124000+ entries in 0.078s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
mircea_popescu: this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
mircea_popescu: note if you will that "bubblesort", while a fully defined symbol, does not actually denote any specific implementation as such.
mircea_popescu: it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
asciilifeform: this is an attainable thing.
asciilifeform: 'work' in this item means to provide the answer if it is available. and silence if it is not.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
mircea_popescu: but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
asciilifeform: no but i like the image of literal wall-o-cunt, lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
mircea_popescu: and in particular cases, you can make a note to self.
mircea_popescu: children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
asciilifeform: in the general case, cannot
asciilifeform: incl the change from nonexistence.
asciilifeform: what i want is more modest thing -- to know who made a particular change. in all cases.
mircea_popescu: so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
asciilifeform: obviously can't distinguish. not unless all 3 are in the room, hanging upside down and plugged into the mains. and perhaps not even then.
mircea_popescu: what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
asciilifeform: if you even have them within smelling distance, your system is broken.
asciilifeform: the idea is to expunge anyone who so much as shows a hint of 'i merely work here', as an unreliable element.
mircea_popescu: or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
asciilifeform: without attribution , it is impossible to determine who even ~is~ the mole.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
mircea_popescu: how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
asciilifeform: the time parameter is real.
asciilifeform: mr.x signed 'i wrote ....' , 15 checkists signed 'i witness thereby that mr.x last night had wrote...'
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
asciilifeform: 1 originated. the rest not.
mircea_popescu: how do you propose to distinguish one among the 16 ?
mircea_popescu: yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
mircea_popescu: and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
asciilifeform: and this is The Wrong Thing.
asciilifeform: if you refuse to distinguish authorship from signature.
asciilifeform: well in cutandpasteism world, there is not 1 mole and 15 chekists. there are 16 signers, is all.
mircea_popescu: this system is designed to work well, not to work thoroughly. it requires no such panopticonism as you envisage.
mircea_popescu: the 2 who failed to find, whom you rated, you unrate.
asciilifeform: the 15 are to answer for ~their~ sin.
mircea_popescu: why do you imagine you'd even see all of these ?
asciilifeform: the 1 usg mole who inserts boobytrap, and the 15 chekists who failed to find him, in my book do NOT have equal responsibility.
asciilifeform: precisely because they dilute the responsibility.
mircea_popescu: if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
mircea_popescu: i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
asciilifeform: this is the part i dunget.
mircea_popescu: as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
asciilifeform: ( compactness both of the diff and of the wholes that were diffed. )
mircea_popescu: as opposed to most accurate description of function.
mircea_popescu: rather, interested in the most compact notation of intent
asciilifeform: whichever that happens to be.
asciilifeform: interested in the most compact accessible diff representation.
mircea_popescu: the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
asciilifeform: even when they differ by 1bit.
asciilifeform: disasms are actually a bitch to diff.
mircea_popescu: "oh, more readable". this is bs, hence all your comments about "disasm" throughout up to today.
mircea_popescu: note that you specifically want ~sources~ not binaries. why ?
mircea_popescu: no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
asciilifeform: it ain't the sum of the parts.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for one thing, v is a structured pile of signed tars.
asciilifeform: cutandpasteism makes muddled authorship socially acceptable, and this in fact is what rats feed on.
asciilifeform: and anybody found 'edging' is held to answer.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
asciilifeform: hence design decisions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771908 . the expectation is that the dubious people who 'live on the edges', are GONE. ☝︎
asciilifeform: the desire to abolish cutandpasteism.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
asciilifeform: i'd like to revisit upstack , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772421 << this is somewhat of a misconception. asciilifeform did not salivate over a 'programmer's paradise' when wrote v. on the contrary. v , as he pictured it, is a weapon of rodenticidal war. specifically to ferret out and neutralize not only the compromised people, but the politically unreliable and the dubious of whatever type. hence the focus on attribution, and ☝︎
asciilifeform: at the same time i dun think that i actually disagree with mircea_popescu re the granularity. we don't have the tech to make granularity 'at procedure level' work.
asciilifeform: the only thing it's got, is the deltas. and i can't see why they shouldn't 'go back to moses' if this is physically possible.
asciilifeform: i'ma approach from different angle : mircea_popescu , what do you think is the advantage of v over mere pile of signed tars ?
mircea_popescu: it happens A LOT more often than you count.
mircea_popescu: but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
asciilifeform: the 'bitcoin by lone idiot' model cannot be ruled out , but nothing requires us to eat it by default.
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item d00d actually came up with, phonograph, was made by hired hands. the man could not machine to save his life )
asciilifeform: trinque: entirely conceivable that it was an edison-like production
asciilifeform: afaik the 'idiot comes up with worthwhile item by accident' is a wholly imaginary problem. never seems to actually happen.
mircea_popescu: if i say it -- it's a thing. if not.. hurr.
asciilifeform: and nomoar 'subtle'-anythings at the edges.
mircea_popescu: two bitwise-identical strings are not thereby the same thing.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing. because, http://trilema.com/2014/pro-idiotas-which-obviously-means-people-who-have-ideas-ie-idiots/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. you find the subtle-manipulators and string'em up.
asciilifeform: if 2 strings are bitwise-identical -- they are the same. if mircea_popescu in his own house insists that trained gurlz with magnifying glasses compare them, before he will consider them to be same, that is his biznis
mircea_popescu: then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
mircea_popescu: yes -- it does work, in the way such works work.
mircea_popescu: in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
mircea_popescu: the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such "ghost of moses in the letters".
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
asciilifeform: and therefore ought to be resolvable mechanically as part of ordinary v operation.
asciilifeform: re earlier item -- if i want to demonstrate that 'alf's exceptional exsudator' consists of diana_coman's magic prime number maker, all 100,000 ln of it verbatim, plus 5 ln of asciilifeform's , this is now a proposition that has to be proven manually. whereas theoretically it is a mechanically resolvable q.
mircea_popescu: that's when he meditates over the leaves.
diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!! ☟︎
asciilifeform: will show, after tea , brb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform show me this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no way to weasel out of the fact that the info is available, but simply ignored by ineptly made vtron.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
mircea_popescu: diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772483 << it's still annoying that , if i import it, and then years later query 'origin' of something, it only can trace back to my own genesis. and not to birth. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-10 16:41 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768160 << haha well this answers http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767425 then. 0 useful.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can't be such a wonderous protocol. in no small part because the PRINCIPAL FUNCTION of the human hand is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768461 ☝︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is correct picture.