lobbes esp. loved the parallel running convos of mp/wiresharkguy with mp/atruechurchguy
ascii_lander: aaaaaaand reporting live from inside the fuckin' rack!!
ascii_lander: and in fact pung here since we walked in noprob
lobbes: life all around! congrats pizarro folx
trinque: .250 (dead) and .251 (live)
ascii_lander: any other ports open on these that i can try ?
trinque: nah pinged before. also can't ssh
trinque: then not routing from outside world?
trinque: yeah I speculated that in #pizarro
trinque: I can indeed ping 250 from 251, inside that net
ascii_lander: we will at some point post photos of, e.g., rooftop at night where we drmengele'd the mains distributor panel bought from orcshop
ascii_lander: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : i'ma bring up yer box nao
deedbot: jaxxie voiced for 30 minutes.
jaxxie: mircea_popescu: here for picture.
lobbes: !!v B9A2A84E0F515EDC426BFE17C5DC57841A0EEDC8330DB33BCCD3543D17ECC6D7
ascii_lander: we now adjourn for the evening, rack-wise, gotta eat, sleep
ascii_lander: smg box i expect is to be brought into service early tomorrow.
ascii_lander: once i can get hold of a bootable-sumthing that knows about the raid.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-07 05:33 Vexual: any idea on cost to rent an rockchip board?
mod6: lobbes: we're workin on that.
mod6: there are only six, seems like they're gonna go quickly.
lobbes: I'm probably too poor, but if it is in my range I'll most likely try and grab one for trb-ing
☟︎ lobbes: my current trb box I'm planning to run at home is a mystery box someone gave me; troubleshooting all the hardware issues I keep uncovering are delaying things. Would be nice to have two eventually anyhow
jaxxie: I can't find a black one
mod6: shinohai: happy belated!
☟︎ mircea_popescu: jaxxie, get all your face in there ; get all the string in there.
ckang: i told her to get a black marker and face but she had to run off
deedbot: roxann3 voiced for 30 minutes.
roxann3: mircea_popescu: here for same too
mircea_popescu: ckang, or she couldyou know, write under rahter than over tattoo.
trinque apparently missed a whole bunch of pretty ones, saw instead trucker whores on parade
mircea_popescu: trinque, theoretically women are more clustered towards the mediocre. in practice however...
trinque: when american goes bad it goes allthewaybad
ckang: yea she got an earful, may have scared her off lol
trinque was fucking this chick for a while, real cute, but had same-position chest tattoo
trinque: hers was a ribbon tied up like a present, extremely poorly done
trinque would stare at the thing the whole time, eventually lost interest. "that ain't coming off or getting covered"
ckang: least it wasnt a coverup
ckang: those can look way worse
mod6: Here comes the flood.
mod6: !!v 740D55B917DD09C3FED463BBF78CC2380E471667B8167F5FF7C126CB045E3EBA
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of mircea_popescu from 6 to 6 << Met IRL. MPEx, Trilema, S.NSA, S.MG: Father of The Most Serene Republic.
mod6: !!v CF327512C35E25FC0155F9A35E6664E8CE74EE3F37DE0F396C46E1FC2A6AD571
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of ben_vulpes from 5 to 5 << Met IRL. The Lord of the Well, Bitcoin Foundation Co-Chair, Pizarro Manager
mod6: !!v 00A4C202C9DF9C961CCAA3DDFFF7F99DEBDB71650311F398C0B8E303C9A314D6
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of hanbot from 4 to 4 << Met IRL. The Lady Falconeer, Tester of all things TMSR~
mod6: !!v C851B6EC714F5421E76F0B60B51D0DD7F9F27BBC0DD9F17654F0DE85603A8A71
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of jurov from 4 to 4 << Three years of service as The Bitcoin Foundation Treasurer
mod6: !!v 57E8CA238AB07F914E7796B2AF4A11D8DC8A2E978035261C66A05FE47CDF6B69
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of asciilifeform from 4 to 5 << Met IRL. Lord Admiral. S.NSA, FUCKGOATS, Pizarro: Shiva
mod6: !!v C7E456293CC3EDDE50561A065B9D0FC08A0E5FC92FB008B05B3CADC6157E6937
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of trinque from 3 to 4 << Master of the Rolls, deedbot
mod6: !!v 09EA11B0A4743A7F86F7A79072505DA58081B7B05850CDD2112351966BD67D82
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of danielpbarron from 2 to 3 << The learned Trishop
mod6: !!v 4B97876D551E532CAF4C1220C58C7E41F915AB6F64518C69C196C0EADA820C62
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of diana_coman from 2 to 4 << Marquess Eulora, Eulora CTO
mod6: !!v 6D62BB334504EADC72C5A45B3F79A3C0BC98F7415A4ABC5C796129D3F38B270F
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of BingoBoingo from 1 to 5 << Lord Goebbels, qntra, Pizarro System Administrator
mod6: !!v 737538AF79B0609AD31A82BBFFB6B9BE622ED4B2B10ED83D881A5CC4076FE795
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of phf from 1 to 4 << Lord Chancellor, btcbase.org, logs, vtools
mod6: !!v FB4FDC9D14879B1AB911738FA1144A9C39C54AA41EA69E0157A5C88651DB6168
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of btchero from 4 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v 292B8363199732EBA43A83E8DCF1F43ED0549A2C2CD1BDC6021AF45B88C71E86
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of glooboy from 4 to 1 << Original rating dating back 5 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v 2BA3C77FD169226E2E3FB9E6B826067A80A80856E1931A6B7364DE05FA39BA1A
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of cory from 3 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v 68C5260ECDFE08D79C714DAFFF03C996EE3128348984E01164C364526627DBF3
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of mike_c from 3 to 1 << Met IRL. Former Lord, off doing other things.
mod6: !!v D6BCC5D9A708947A7046F4D16964C54488D129CF5DD32D6FBED5A070537244BD
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of paulzag from 3 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v A35E56105B164A9B1615498C95D1C25617102E10DFE147ED9FA6F40549F38AD3
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of pho from 3 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v DA3517780EBF8C3758BAEB0D19ADC2A9642D4E1872A87258A2750EE4AA7D7940
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of imsaguy from 2 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v 4DDB595B7B65D4F955DA8B63518D34576AB18A59DA75B7A1A8C738CEA97326D7
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of pete_dushenski from 2 to 1 << Runs two TRB nodes. Has bitcoin related blog.
mod6: !!v 4F054F9FD2649032C88D0D6C6CAA566A8214B8B5CD33275240F982CC340206AA
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of sgornick from 2 to 1 << Original rating dating back 6 years. Have not heard from in long time.
mod6: !!v 155231619BB6017871F4D1C1E5BCAC614DD5C1B327A29D9A0C048713D427ED8B
deedbot: mod6 updated rating of davout from 2 to 1 << Met IRL, #trilema
mod6: !!v 4745ECDFB4B0D92A3F969FE1CED2D90EDFB2B5A7CDD5F3807BECD5471FE22690
mod6: !!v E3B4EB5538E7BA483D1F39E460067DEDDE3EB8988448B419DF030F49A3576BD3
mod6: !!v 19BDFF5C0EB9170467CCAD4FBEA277A8FA160F6F46DB37176C3BA6B8C625796D
deedbot: mod6 unrated thestringpuller.
mod6: !!v E9F75F9E6D61F7E8836F475C54E700B4E15675BCEAB52C2BFD3967ED86629987
deedbot: mod6 unrated funkenstein_.
mod6: !!v C999969A6CEBD2842768CB7A1FE7C108924530092C902D55A33E05B88EF9937A
deedbot: mod6 unrated pinkposixpxe.
mod6: !!v 02D057C088F2632495617A512A2D9A35CF891BE0FD00E8952B56AD7886E59DB6
mod6: !!v 8B1EEFAE03346FC70DD3824D4E44F711BC882AD2AD7603F4BFE580667282D49F
mod6: !!v B77B05BF8823D2B9B985531AD06E9866A11EC625D2F2626D09905A918AD6BD96
mod6: !!v 50F62C5D7CDAB5341AE220A3FA236D5E313D3368D2F496CF2E6FA5E4A90E7354
mod6: !!v 90D235373A73F90DAFD7AD5ADD48AA79DA48832A31C400A206E83B8DBF43CCCA
deedbot: mod6 rated lobbes 1 << Lobbesbot, #trilema
deedbot: kendraB voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes: !!v 19B8E1A224D9F9961713C9C89307A28786D3557868D1A7375B01FDE73F96AF9B
lobbes: !!v B527A84AF232D3EE394C008B99EDCAA146781DA718B5E841817E045DB1677ABE
esthlos: hanbot et al: my mp-wp seems borked: when trying to make a new post, the "tab" to switch to raw HTML is greyed out and does nothing, and HTML tags are ignored. Also, the visual editing features aren't showing at all. Any ideas?
esthlos: I should add: there's no toolbar to edit text, and nothing is being written to the log
a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 20:24 danielpbarron: right now i'm trying to figure out why the pretty urls thing broke my edit-post thing to where the handy "insert link/blockquote" buttons disappeared
a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 01:12 lobbes: I'm probably too poor, but if it is in my range I'll most likely try and grab one for trb-ing
deedbot: kendraB voiced for 30 minutes.
ckang: she couldnt figure out how to upload
esthlos: lobbes: excellent, thank you
deedbot: veronicalol voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes: ascii_lander: ah damn. ty for info
ascii_lander: once we can get moar ssd over here, will start to offer options
ascii_lander: but 1) rockchip will prolly never be an idea trb box 2) wakeup folx installing 77th trb in the rack ! trb dun do much good with N nodez hanging off 1 fiber.
trinque: so... how did the tattoo end up one direction, and the numbers the other?
mircea_popescu: lobbes, ascii_lander the blockchain isn't even 50gb yet. so it'll work for years.
trinque: kendraB: I mean your tattoo's lettering goes one way, and your writing the other way.
ascii_lander: mircea_popescu: srsly log in to yer node and size it up, du -h .bitcoin
lobbes: well, she'd have had to write either the string or have had the tattoo mirrored when creating
lobbes: i.e. lettering mirrored on one but not the other
kendraB: tattoo is such it can be read in a mirror
lobbes: ascii_lander: agreed on 1) and 2), but still, as a secondary node may as well have one than not eh?
lobbes: my aim is to have > 1 trb node in > 1 physical locations
ascii_lander: lobbes: iirc current trb won't even ever simult-connect to 2+ nodes nearby in ip space
ascii_lander: mircea_popescu: yea verily, this is possibly the 1 commonplace thing where they definitely won't shine
trinque: that's too bad about not connecting to nearby nodes
trinque will have a synced node in there before long
trinque: ascii_lander: not even with -connect ?
mircea_popescu: trinque, im not even sure it's so bad. spreads the load.
ascii_lander: it was prolly an anti-sibyl measure originally
mircea_popescu: think about it, if 500 nodes want to talk to bbistan, each local trb will talk to 500/n
trinque: I just mean for initial stand-up of somebody's node
trinque: makes sense to spread out connections normally, totally.
mircea_popescu: not what i mean. here it is : if you have n nodes in ip a.b.c.*, each node from outside will pick ONE a.b.c.* node to talk to.
mircea_popescu: resulting in this situation where if a large k nodes wnat to talk to the n group, each node in the n group will see k/n inbound connections on average.
mircea_popescu: so adding more nodes in bbistan helps, somewhat. it doesn't help the pipe, but it spreads the load among boxes.
ascii_lander: current trb (not speaking of my 'wires' attempt) doesn't give you this behaviour
ascii_lander: if a node it tried to connect to, failed to answer, iirc it skips to a random node from the cache
mircea_popescu: the only guarantee is you won't have outside node talking to 2 locals.
ascii_lander: there is not , in traditional trb, a 'talk to these N nodes' mode.
ascii_lander: ('-connect' doesn't do quite this; it makes own node a slave-only)
mircea_popescu: admitting ad absurdum that there's a large number of nodes only knowing this set of peers.
deedbot: driscole voiced for 30 minutes.
ckang: another for you mircea_popescu
trinque: kendraB: so when you were getting this tattoo, how it looked in a mirror took precedence over how it... looked as you stand there?
ckang: trinque: ive know several ppl to do that
ckang: the reason is who sees a tattoo the most
ckang: you do, in the mirror
ckang: why would you want to read a tattoo every time you get out of the shower backwards
ckang: if its on your arm however thats a bit different...
trinque: heh, even the crackwhore's "bobby" was the right direction
ckang: i imagine thats so "bobby" can read it
a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 20:03 mircea_popescu: you know, "show me the light, by all means, but later"
ben_vulpes: ckang: mirroring tattoos on self turns the narcicissm to eleven
ckang: ben_vulpes: im not trying to justify it, but ive seen it before
ckang: im not a huge fan of tats, they look bad with time
ckang: but its mostly been little short things like 'stay strong' or some personal reminder
trinque: that bobby pic (with presumably ex-dood's hand in frame) is fanfic-worthy
ckang: so what brave man is going to sample her warez?
trinque: looks like there's packet loss between the wallet and deedbot, with the fault on the deedbot end.
trinque: that'd explain some of the incomplete registrations (got nick:fp pair, did not get key into wallet's keychain)
trinque shipped a patch that'll retry fetching the key
trinque: aside all that, deedbot's obviously migrating to pizarro soon as can be done.
ckang: trinque: do they need to register ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 15:20 mircea_popescu: the best example i can think of is the code on the old handheld calculators. THAT is a general purpose os : it makes no assumption about the downstream, merely fully, cleanly and directly exposes the hardware.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-16 15:12 mircea_popescu: i suppose at work might be a confusion between what-some-idiots-might-be-thinking-retroconstructed-on-the-flimsy-basis-of-how-they-behave, where "general purpose os" means "the sprinkle of magic turning the computer from a computer to anything i want it to be, which is to say a tool that magicvally works for any purpose i might come up with, especially the nonsensical and self-contradic
spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-16#1799861 <-- I dun fully grasp this, so bear with me for a moment. suppose the following (imho no-nonsense) thought experiment: say we have an os, NOP-OS, that works as follows: after initialization, the os loads a (user-provided) program P; the NOP-OS interface exposes to P exactly one system call, "no-op", which does nothing and returns. is then NOP-OS a general-purpose OS? say we add another system
☝︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 15:22 mircea_popescu: whereas the proper definition of "general purpose" is the one mentioned, "which makes no assumptions about the userland".
spyked: call, "exit(code)", which allows P to return control to NOP-OS, so that the user can load another program P'. same question here.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: asciilifeform's sense of wonder here has been good for the moral. Been learning quite a bit here.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 01:26 mod6: shinohai: happy belated!
shinohai: BingoBoingo: overvalues firm / overvalues the firm ?
ascii_lander: mircea_popescu: it's in my copy of augustine, lol
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-17#1800909 << wasn't, no. and yes, the ti-89, sure. or my ancient citizen solar powered item which i haven't seen for 15 years at the least but which was revolutionary for its time and literally worked by degrees -- if you obstructed two of its cell it could still slightly power the screen so it did.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 08:57 spyked: hm, a111 dead?
mircea_popescu: ascii_lander, to a large degree who said what in early church history is a cockularity poontest.
mircea_popescu: so what's that mean, that they were both riding dinosaurs into combat, big deal.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 09:05 spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-16#1799861 <-- I dun fully grasp this, so bear with me for a moment. suppose the following (imho no-nonsense) thought experiment: say we have an os, NOP-OS, that works as follows: after initialization, the os loads a (user-provided) program P; the NOP-OS interface exposes to P exactly one system call, "no-op", which does nothing and returns. is then NOP-OS a general-purpose OS? say we add another system
mircea_popescu: if however that os runs on a no-op single instruction cpu, then it is absolutely general purpose.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: if you modified it so it checked whether the machine temperature is within three degrees of freezing and did not expose the no-op in THAT case, then thereby it would be a general purpose os no longer
mircea_popescu: but instead, it would be a particular-purpose os, "for those cases when the user wants the machine to not be 3 degrees from freezing".
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-17#1800914 <<< how it manages user interfacing is not even a consideration here. whether it returns control via pushing that specific-sounding button on the back left like the old tim-s ; or whether it has a software call implemented is irrelevant. not from a gui/ux perspoective, of course, but this is the fucking point of systems design as a discipline : that it does NOT consider other discipl
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 09:05 spyked: call, "exit(code)", which allows P to return control to NOP-OS, so that the user can load another program P'. same question here.
mircea_popescu: ines, and through this separation allows complex, YET STILL SENSIBLE apparata be aggregated.
mircea_popescu: exactly how medicine does not consider whether you were fashionably dressed at the moment of symptoms, to establish whether your sartorial ineptitude maybe upset Sartrus, the god of suits.
mircea_popescu: god knows i have enough trouble as it is remembering what i ate yesterday, if i also had to remember what i was wearing while doing it we could just call it quits.
mircea_popescu: which is exactly what's happening with pre-republican computers.
mircea_popescu: (fun facts for the recently born : 1. most old zx-80 clone programs were games, whether you count by titles, or by total cpu time, or any other way ; 2. they did not return (mostly because to make a good one you had to fuck the kernel space, that zx80 shit was tight), you pressed the reset button to load the next item on the tape.
mircea_popescu: the jury is still out, as far as i'm concerned, on whether the os that loses control of a machine is still an os, meaning it's not altogether clear to me the basic-whatever combo they had at the time actually constitutes an os. but the problem FUCKING ISNT the naive perception at the time, "oh, it didn't hjave icons to click like windows 3.1". windows 3.1 was not an os ; nor was any other windows product an os. microsoft ship
mircea_popescu: ped a "userland package" at all points in its existence, there's no substantial difference between "the office suite" and "windows + the office suite".
trinque: going to reboot the deedbot box; getting about 10kbps out of the thing currently.
trinque: kind of a wonder it's working at all under these conditions
ascii_lander: trinque: out of curiosity -- this is in a heathen dc ? usa ?
mircea_popescu: then either phf or someone else can turn that text-only client into a webservice.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, sooo, did you send login details to douchebag ? what do these cost in the end ?
ascii_lander: mircea_popescu: i'ma actually headed to the smg box shortly
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> aite. << I have been walking alf quite a bit here
mircea_popescu: alf the beedog happines = long walks + icecream stops.
BingoBoingo: Until alf arrived I had been taking the cheese versus petrocheese gulf for granted
BingoBoingo: I just kinda forgot petrocheese was a thing with the real stuff here
ascii_lander: but this is at the cost of 'hey i'ma eat a video card'
trinque: ckang: no, I'll have the deedbot keys pulled down in an hour; they'll then be able to withdraw, whoever can't
trinque: heh that guy the other day might've mentioned he was getting kbps!!!
mircea_popescu: you don't understand the game of world politics and international intrigue of the web! you're supposed to not tell things! THERES TERRORISTS OUT THERE.
trinque: ah shit, with scary beards even
mircea_popescu: yes. gotta keep your tits close to the chest and the sharpie firmly up butt.
trinque: aaaand 10-12% packet loss inside the dc
trinque: the singapore one of course, not pizarro.
spyked: so, taking anotehr shot at this definition: a general-purpose os is an os that cleanly exposes hardware to user programs, without making assumptions about the latter. it's still not immediately clear to me what "cleanly" means, but this'll have to do.
spyked: anyway, this thread put together should make for a decent follow-up piece, i'ma get to it tomorrow.
spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-17#1800949 <-- could also be a turing-capable cpu that exposes the instructions natively after the program is loaded. the important part was re what the os itself exposes (or not, in this case) and how this relates to "makes no assumptions about P"
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 15:05 mircea_popescu: if however that os runs on a no-op single instruction cpu, then it is absolutely general purpose.
mircea_popescu: spyked, cleanly ie, simplest bijective. 1. all items in A are represented in B ; 2. all items in B have an underlying in A ; 3. there is no simpler relation in any case.
mircea_popescu: spyked, perhaps another useful heuristic is the authority problem. if the specification of a user program CAN include a MUST statement, quo warranto ? if "the os", then it is not general purpose.
mircea_popescu: and perhaps worthy of noting here, that the "trend" "emerging" from usg's own "computer security" roadside act cum flea circus, is towards special-purpose os. because that's what they mean by "security".
mircea_popescu: whereas the one user one box tmsr approach sticks with the general purpose os philosophy, and expects spurious color-of-bits considerations to be implemented in the realm in which they belong -- if you want to own the bits own the box, there shall be no legislating here.
spyked: mircea_popescu, I don't see a fundamental problem with special-purpose os (which is why I mentioned "bitcoin node os" as one, though it *could* in principle be implemented as a particular instance of a general-purpose os). embedded hardware (e.g. requiring timing constriants) is full of them.
mircea_popescu: it all comes down to WHAT is the special purpose. mind that the direction the bitcoin node os is taking is towards ~special purpose hardware~. this is very fucking different, whether you have special purpose hardware run by general purpose osen, or whether you have ibm at clone consumershit emulated into republican sanity by usg's flaour of special purpose os.
mircea_popescu: because in the former case, the VARIOUS gposen would still be in fact different from each other.
mircea_popescu: the confounding factor here is pantsuitist outlook, whereby some retard (the user) regards self as meausre of all things and imagines all vectors start from him, and therefore in his boneheaded approach to the world, "general purpose os" means something about him. it fucking doesn't, a general purpose os isn't one joe schcmucktoe can put on a stick and carry around and "it'll work on all computers he encounters".
mircea_popescu: ye olde sld-7001 (check me out, meanwhile i found it!)'s os is GP, notwithstanding it won't run your "intelligent" lawnmower.
spyked: aha, found nothing on hardware and software specs. mircea_popescu, if it's any similar to the calculators I had as a kid, it might not even have any software (all calculator logic implemented using gates)
mircea_popescu: what, your no-op example is not trivial, but my no-os example is ?
spyked: well, I didn't say it *doesn't* have an OS. just trying to figure out what that is :D
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, this is too fluid to fix in a comment, and i'd rather have it here than in #eulora. so : let's call eucrypt.serpent X and eucrypt.RSA-OAEP R. now, 1. client wants to log in, R(hello) -> S[erver].
mircea_popescu: at this juncture, server knows "someone" claiming to be A initiated a connection. it should therefore send X(answer) back, where X uses a key that S knows A should have, on the basis of previous comms.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: if A fails to respond, S will close the connection, practically meaning that A can't claim to be A unless he keeps some X keys about. which is something A-implementers must be aware of.
mircea_popescu: now, if B wants to update his X.keys with the server, he sends them X'd with one of the existing S keys. meaning, again, that if B manages to lose all S's X keys, it lost the account.
mircea_popescu: so implementations MUST keep at least a local and a server X key at all times ; doing otherwise is === deleting the account.
mircea_popescu: this is then the eulora future login handshake : C : hello ; S : new account, here are your keys ; C : here's some keys of mine. they can now continue indefinitely, just as long as nobody loses all the keys.
mircea_popescu: actually, let's make this clearer, it's ambiguous as it stands. C : hello ; S : new account, here are some X keys you can use to decrypt and some X keys you're required to use to encrypt ; C : here's my R key [and here are some X keys i'd prefer to use].
mircea_popescu: which then runs into the obvious problem that i had been chasing all this time : client's R key has to come earlier in the flux. how about the rule that all hello items sent to the server are either a) encrypted to a pre-existing X key or else b) contain a R key ? ie, our helo is not correct as specced.
mircea_popescu: if instead we made it rely on R, there'd be great benefits. consider this alternate model : C : R(hi, this is C.R.key) S : R(here's some X keys for me and for you) C:(actually i'd rather you use these X keys for me).
mircea_popescu: like this, server must not lose its R privkey and clients must not lose their R privkey , but pubkeys of all these can be safely lost, and X keys don't matter at all. seems altogether safer and less friable.
mircea_popescu: now subsidiary for all this : server should generate a batch of X keys and send them to the client every time its store of either S or C X keys drops under a certain value. it's therefore the client responsibility to make sure there's enough keys in store if it doesn't want to pay for key generation. now, what should this threshold be ? 3 ?
mircea_popescu: also important, third question : should the client be permitted to generate X keys for the server ?
ascii_lander reporting live from... inside the cage. fixed the raid oops on smg box; nao partitioning it & copying dulap's gentoo
mircea_popescu: now here's a question on which i'd very much like to hear a lordship oppinion. so, the model currently contemplated for eulora includes a bit whereby the server has to be told by the client a magic string, and will report this back to the client on demand, "here's what you told me you are". the idea is that the client can then sha his binary, and see if the strings match.
mircea_popescu: the reason for this is that games are eminently a domain where people share binaries, a matter of fact established both from general and minigame's own experience. obviously in the sane world of source sharing, v is the correct solution. but if people are going to share binaries, this seems like the only available approach.
mircea_popescu: (one could object, "it's pointless to attempt this, hacked client can just replace magic string", which is true, but nevertheless client can still binary audit his item and see / login with a special, known-good string-test-only client and see what he should be. ie, client can bootstrap himself out of the fakebox produced by a hacked binary.
mircea_popescu: now obviously, this approach wouldn't be nearly as useful for dynamically linked clients ; but i deem the fact that it puts the security incentive on dumping dynamic linking a very good thing.
diana_coman:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-17#1801027 --> uhm, for starters this is not correct; initial hello is meant for....initial, no "previous comms" wtf; server needs to reply not with X(answer) but with R(answer) and yes, it needs to know the public rsa key of the account; the creation of accts is still a bit in the air as server needs to get somehow the public key
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 16:50 mircea_popescu: at this juncture, server knows "someone" claiming to be A initiated a connection. it should therefore send X(answer) back, where X uses a key that S knows A should have, on the basis of previous comms.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, well, two kinds of helo, yes ? when initiating a connection ; and when initaitng an account.
diana_coman: the idea was that if client loses all his X keys, he can send a hello message again
diana_coman: ah, you mean the same but just id vs no id?
mircea_popescu: that's what i mean, this is kinda too fluid and i suspect it's because somewhere in my head i conflate two things.
diana_coman: it does seem like you have something else in mind indeed; hm
diana_coman: possibly the "register account" vs "authenticate"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, in any case strictly speaking, the helo as we spec it does not include R pubkey ; whereas in practice it actually must. but read the whole blob, this is better compiled htan parsed.
diana_coman: I don't quite follow why is server concerned with client's stock of R keys? client can request new keys, burn them, do whatever it wants as it decides how often it wants new keys
mircea_popescu: X keys only ; R key is one. and server is concerned because if it has no client X keys, it can't send, and if the client has no server X keys, the server can't receive.
diana_coman: I don't quite follow why is server concerned with client's stock of X keys? client can request new keys, burn them, do whatever it wants as it decides how often it wants new keys
mircea_popescu: but basically the idea for X keys is to work like that, if you don't have any server makes, if you make them then server uses .
diana_coman: but if you don't know that you don't have...
diana_coman: but why does the server *care*? to spare the client the need to ask or what?
mircea_popescu: because it's stuck keeping a list of keys anyway. so it knows how many they are anyway. so might as well send when needed rather than wait to be asked.
diana_coman: so server sets threshold at 3; why can't I decide I want that at 2 and you at 5 and so on
mircea_popescu: you can send as many as you want, the server will keep them for you.
mircea_popescu: but if you want less than 3, it'll keep sending you extras until you give up trying to argue with my server.
diana_coman: server wants to look after clients so they don't end up without keys; it can, sure; all I'm saying is that I don't quite see the reason for this; perhaps other than "clients are idiots, let's at least avoid the case where they end up going hello hello all the time"
mircea_popescu: seems to me the threshold will practically be set at 1 as a matter of absolute necessity. once that is the case, setting it at 3 is in no substantial way different : just as many keys will be used as before, but the setting at 3 forces key creation at a time prior to when keys are needed, which seems to help with resource load spread.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, kinda 90% of all server code aims to avoid "accidental client ddos".
mircea_popescu: i don't have this modelled well enough to say it with certainty ; but it seems to me 3 is a reasonable choice.
diana_coman: well, it's certainly not the number I have a problem with anyway
diana_coman: I'm still not convinced it has to be; if it gets lower than 1 and client hasn't asked, I'd just disconnect them and they can get back with a hello that is low priority and they..w.ait
mircea_popescu: yes, but here's the principle : if server knows something will be needed as a certainty, server should act rather than wait to be called to act. which is why it's a server rather than a client.
diana_coman: uhm, dunno about that certainty there; maybe client doesn't want to keep serpent keys between sessions for all I know
mircea_popescu: (for the oursiders : it is the agreement in minigame boardroom that rsa helo packets from existing clients will be lowest priority, after 1. serpent packets and 2. rsa helo packets from unknown clients. the idea is you keep your serpent keys, and continue your "session" whenever, it's kind of a stateless session)\
diana_coman: re creating account: it obviously needs the client's public rsa and atm that one is nowhere in there, yes; I thought you didn't want them in there because it's not just about "a rsa key" but rather one registered with deedbot sort of thing
diana_coman: so it's not enough that client plonks a key in there
mircea_popescu: (it does away with the "is user logged in". you can pm everyone all the time, they're always logged in anyway).
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, one consideration was that if it includes pubkey it will have to be multipacket and i wanted it to be singlepacket for some now incomprehensible reason.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: but no, seems the correct approach is to replace 3.1.5 with "rsa pubkey". and ACTUALLY use that as the account id.
diana_coman: rsa pubkey if de-facto account id anyway i.e. identifies uniquely one account, yes
diana_coman: but to my earlier obs: so you're fine with people creating account with any rsa key (well, tmsr/eucrypt rsa at least) ?
mircea_popescu: i know this isn't how it works now and hasn't been for a long time, but i'm ready to move on!!1
diana_coman: ok, so then there is hello-new-account with the R public key; there are otherwise *only* X messages? and if no X key then ...account lost or can it re-send "new account" and basically retrieve the old one?
mircea_popescu: im thinking it's actually best to have a single helo, with r-pubkey. if it is known to the server then it sends X keys ; if it is not known then... it sends X keys.
mircea_popescu: re "registered with deedbot" part : i expect in-game trade should be the driver of both rating and registration.
diana_coman: well yes, it is only one, the "hello-new-account" although whether it's "old" or "new"...same difference
diana_coman: but it's needed only when client doesn't have any X keys for whatever reason basically, right?
diana_coman: otherwise there isn't any hello as such, just send directly whatever it wants/needs, encrypted with one of the X keys and that's that
mircea_popescu: if client has at least one server X key it can bootstrap, sending more.
diana_coman: I'll eat the convo again and then update the spec (+link to log ofc) hopefully
diana_coman: certainly; and it goes for the data types too; fwiw I wasn't keen on putting this up precisely because it's a bit in the air as it stands and I expect other issues to emerge at implementation time
mircea_popescu: yes. but hey, this is precisely why god gave us blogs in the first place.
trinque: deedbot will be offline briefly as the DC fixes its networking situation
douchebag: Hey trinque I don't mean to bother you, but with the various deedbot issues
douchebag: I was just making sure withdrawls for those girls yesterday went through properly - no rush getting them processed
trinque: I have 7 in the hopper for this evening.
trinque: the !!pay wasn't broken, just !!balance and !!withdraw
douchebag: I think that's really awesome way how you do withdrawls though
☟︎ trinque: well and I have to admit that leaning on it exposed that the !!register service was weak (albeit weak meaning "couldn't survive 10kbps wire with packet loss")
douchebag: Yeah no problem, glad I could bring that to your attention
douchebag: So trinque, what is it exactly that got you interested in programming/networking/sysadmin stuff? What sort of things interested you the most and motivated you to keep learning?
trinque: mmm, got my dad's computer stuck in DOS back in the win95 days playing a game. I was about 7-8? he was away on a trip, so I had 2 days to "fix the computer" or certain asswhippin. found the thing in win.ini or w/e it was, changed it, avoided wrath.
trinque: clicked in my head that "oh, *this* is what the computer is for. change the text, and it does something different."
☟︎ trinque: that's about it, really. pretty african origin story compared to the 80s kids
trinque: after that somebody bought me a "make your own game!" basic interpreter of some sort
douchebag: Yeah, can you believe last year I had to take a QBasic 4.5 class
☟︎ diana_coman:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-17#1801097 <- mircea_popescu looking at it again from all sides I think the consideration is not necessarily misplaced in itself i.e. multi-packet there does make a mess out of the neat "these are the only *packets* you may ever send"; this being said though, I don't quite see the solution that would *also* preserve the desired "whatever it is, server responds the same: with a set of X keys"
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-04-17 17:55 mircea_popescu: diana_coman, one consideration was that if it includes pubkey it will have to be multipacket and i wanted it to be singlepacket for some now incomprehensible reason.
diana_coman: and at any rate, we end up with a "hello" packet that is the first one, containing version of comms protocol and client id string and all that jazz but *at most* some bits of the key only, followed by... more packets with the remaining, chopped-up public rsa key
☟︎ diana_coman: alternatively the hello message stays single-packet and uses a keccak hash of the public key (n,e,comment) as "account ID" so 3.1.5; then key is sent via Data packages and basically I need to define another type for RSA public key; server can ask/expect the RSA key *every time* to preserve same answer behaviour or otherwise only if it doesn't know the key
lobbes will gladly test a phf-made eulora text client
lobbes: main thing putting me off from playing more frequently has been the graphics requirement.
trinque: ok, thing's back up and I'm getting quite a bit more speed from the pipe.
trinque: hopefully that'll be enough fiddling to let me get back to migrating to pizarro, BingoBoingo !
ascii_lander: phunphakt : when you give 'exclude' option to tar, it excludes RECURSIVELY all files having that name, regardless of depth. this cost us 6 or so hrs today.
ascii_lander ended up N times with broken copy of gentoo and no way to determine why other than exhaustive grunting
ascii_lander bbl, had vehehehery long day down here in the bunker