a111: Logged on 2016-07-28 23:34 trinque: I am not here to pay for consequences like somebody's child, merely to buy a product
trinque: you do not get to tally up the sum total of effect something has on the univese itself and try to derive a price from that
a111: Logged on 2016-07-28 23:34 trinque: this is the fucking carbon credits argument
trinque: cost and effect are not synonyms
trinque: I wonder how many other idiot languages conflate monetary cost and "prevents alternate possible outcome"
trinque: as in, "the train wreck cost him his life"
trinque: that is not fucking monetary at all
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: $44 barrel nets $2 gallon at the pump. $100 barrel closer to $4 per gal at the pump.
pete_dushenski: when discussing proportions, it's essential to keep in mind what our priors are. don't be the vacuum thinking kid from the recent contravex comments
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: basically, costs and prices fluctuate and you can't just cherrypick historical numbers to suit your theory.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: why only in last half-century ? what changed ?
pete_dushenski: so non-people helping non-people... i fail to see the issue here. saudis have far more culture, however lamentable you may find it, than americanos.
pete_dushenski: structure, rules, hierarchy, the lot. saudis have. usians don't.
pete_dushenski: besides, everything alive grows to the point where it can't grow anymore.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: of the social form, not the 'we wrote this on a piece of paper and now it means things and we also made lots and lots of signs everywhere so that you never forget what we wrote on the pieces of paper'
pete_dushenski: anyways, i have to beat this rainstorm heading my way. having left the 16cyls parked, cycling and all. i'll read the continuation in the logs but it'll be a few busy days until i'm voiced again.
trinque: blockchain was a bit behind on the node, but yes, farts bundle URLs now
shinohai: Finally! been waiting on that for some time trinque lol
trinque: my observation is that my node will get behind, then rapidly catch up if restarted
trinque: I might find time to investigate why soon
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: consider a bouncer. logins and self-voicings is unnecessary opsec bit-leakage.
ben_vulpes: "kindergarten opsec lessons!11!" as asciilifeform would say
ben_vulpes: to continue the exercise, for students, every time pete_dushenski is logged in and self-voiced, he may be assumed to be in physical proximity to his keys.
mod6: <+trinque> ey mod6 ^ << hey, thanks again trinque. o7
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and it ~is~ a cost. << so far, it's "alf got drunk one day, went on an abstruse rant".
mircea_popescu: i eagerly await article explaining how $100 petrobarrel << i dunno what you think this sort of nonsense achieves. what in fact it achieves is "oh look, alf has nfi what stuff costs, but he wants to derp about how it works". it's a bad habit.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ~nobody paid anything like the actual cost << if you mean "the cost to make huge ferns, stuff them into earth, make oil", then yes. this is however no argument : nobody pays, nor could anyone ever pay, the "cost to re-do big bang".
mircea_popescu: want it or not, some level of denied externality is baked into life, not just human life bu life altogether. most people grok this point when contemplating lord kelivn's universal death idea.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: In other news, some derp is dreaming about mustering enough miners to 51% the ethereum chain that didn't hardfork in a time travel theft. Idiot appears to be neglecting that much hash would make his chain vulnerable.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 01:19 mircea_popescu: want it or not, some level of denied externality is baked into life, not just human life bu life altogether. most people grok this point when contemplating lord kelivn's universal death idea.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 01:16 mircea_popescu: i eagerly await article explaining how $100 petrobarrel << i dunno what you think this sort of nonsense achieves. what in fact it achieves is "oh look, alf has nfi what stuff costs, but he wants to derp about how it works". it's a bad habit.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu>
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-28#1510902 << this is a good point, actually. gotta be looked into, sealing gotta seal all the crevices. << noted. I dug into this at one point, but got side tracked by other pressing things that came up at the time.
☝︎ mod6: I'm trying to remember the specifics. I can't seem to recall too much about it.
mod6: I'd have to dig through the logs. I'll turn my attention to that at some point soon after I get an updated build script out there.
trinque: asciilifeform: I refer you to the "pay for sunlight" thread. No one contests that there *are* externalities, but their cost is undefined.
trinque: and pointedly not fucking zero
trinque: and for fucks sake there is no such thing as "the cost of fission power"
☟︎ trinque: no one ever bought "fission power" the concept
trinque: you conflate transactional, monetary cost and ~consequence
trinque: heh, here, "you cannot buy X unhappenings of chernobyl!"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the substance of the dreamer's dream is always dreamy! and of a creamy consistence!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not a matter of "deny". energy economics is a proper field, which you're welcome to learn if you care, or not. the behaviour you briefly engaged in is not unlike 15 yo alf trying to learn math by busting into brin sr's class and yelling "all functions are convex! prove me wrong!" really loudly.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: there's better ways to learn things than saying the stupidest thing one can thing of to the smartest people he can find.
mircea_popescu: but of course, more generally, the reason civilisation in all its known implementations always flows towards "herd of females, and capons" is exactly that naturally, boys tend to prefer learning by the above described process, which is never popular with the learned.
mircea_popescu: this is a prime something to cleave, somehow. it is a major limit of our world, much moreso than "carbon" blabla or gravity. its unyielding pressure creates the necessity of the harem, for instance, and many things.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: anyway, to round the matter for the readership, oil is not 100, but about 35 atm. was 40 last year. in this interval of time, about two thirds of the cost of the barrel comes from various royalties paid to governments, both directly and indirectly in the form of "compliance" with myriad idiocies. the cost of refining, owing to technological advance entirely unrelated to government, is under a cent. transportation around a cen
mircea_popescu: t. the 25 cents may not be exact, but they're not far off for one thing, and based on actual reasoning as opposed to "let's say things see what happens".
mircea_popescu: it's true that oil ~futures~ did top 100 for some time some time ago. this is a different sort of "price" than the "price" of interest in the reasoning above, and a different sort of signal.
mircea_popescu: that difference is perhaps best understood as the difference between "find me the real roots of f(x)" and "find me the limit of f(x) with x->inf". different stories altogether.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: trinque the important point about "externalities" in a discussion of money, and by extension capitalism, is that they're never anything other than a power play. (much like appeals to "science" in a social setting, notwithstanding the libertard's hollow pretense to the contrary).
mircea_popescu: when i say "You see ? The capitalist found the externality, made his item certainly cheaper and arguably "better" at the expense of unknown things not in his charge." i am not being facetious. the derp's actually being a good capitalist in that example. which is the broader point there : one can't pull himself up by own breeches, "capitalism" is not a cure for stupidity, merely an instrument for smart people.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 04:10 trinque: and for fucks sake there is no such thing as "the cost of fission power"
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 06:39 mircea_popescu: that difference is perhaps best understood as the difference between "find me the real roots of f(x)" and "find me the limit of f(x) with x->inf". different stories altogether.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 06:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not a matter of "deny". energy economics is a proper field, which you're welcome to learn if you care, or not. the behaviour you briefly engaged in is not unlike 15 yo alf trying to learn math by busting into brin sr's class and yelling "all functions are convex! prove me wrong!" really loudly.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 06:31 mircea_popescu: this is a prime something to cleave, somehow. it is a major limit of our world, much moreso than "carbon" blabla or gravity. its unyielding pressure creates the necessity of the harem, for instance, and many things.
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 Got your telegram, worked smooth. Tested on Gentto and Debian, will update on Ubuntu.
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo ... thestringpuller put me on more comedy lulz incoming
trinque: hm odd, I've got something to fix in deedbot's ghost logic. apparently ghost doesn't work if the ghosted nick disconnects in between the connection and ghost.
☟︎ shinohai: "Because I stay independent in my Bitcoin, I am dependent on Roger Ver for funding."
deedbot: omglovethis voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 yeah, i recall. << iirc, there was a whole pile of these second level deps. i seem to remember that at the time, there wasn't a plan in place for how to climb the mountain there. but with the primary artifacts now deeded, we have a pattern.
mod6: hopefully we can get those ones in, and work towards getting the whole wad frozen.
mod6: <shinohai> Got your telegram, worked smooth. Tested on Gentto and Debian, will update on Ubuntu. << hey thanks!
shinohai: Finished the Ubuntu build before you got on, so yeah all working nice mod6
mod6: So, yeah, added in the pull of the deeds, the checking of the sigs, uudecoded, and checked the output hashes. not just on the craptastic four; also put in explicit sig checking on the rotor and V.
mod6: Previously we were checking this, but I don't know if it was failing properly if there was a bad sig.
shinohai: I know you're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna stuff it all in an iso and try a build later with no internetz again
☟︎ mod6: ah. yeah might still be some changes to come if something doesn't pass the tests. so be prepared for that eventuallity until V99994 is placed in deedbot.
shinohai: Oh I know it will all get changed lol xD
mod6: so i need to still do some negative testing; i need to kinda run the script a section at a time. and in each section, exiting after it pulls an artifact, diddle the signature by hand on the fs, then resume; this should cause the signature check to fail, and the signature conditional to exit the script with an error as designed.
shinohai: ^ I actually did this to ensure I was getting correct sigs each time.
mod6: if that stuff works well, then will probably pass around for others to try before it's deed-ified
mod6: you already did all that!? ^5
mod6: i was gonna do it late lasntight, but was getting too late.
shinohai: yeah i diddled the sigs on each part and reran. Failed as expected
mod6: <+shinohai> I know you're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna stuff it all in an iso and try a build later with no internetz again << this /should/ fail. because buildroot won't be able to pull all of its stuff down.
☟︎☟︎ mod6: however, this is a decent opportunity to go a head, build with the build script, save all your terminal output to say a `script` into typescript or whatever bash logging you wanna do, and gather up the list of deps buildroot pulls so I can start to climb that mountain.
mod6: i've done this before, I was saying in here, but.. it's been a good while since. Might be worth another gathering. If that's a bit boring or whatever, don't worry, I can tackle this later.
mod6: But if looking for a useful task...
mod6: asciilifeform: hey, ya, thanks.
mod6: will certainly be revisiting all of this in August.
mats: exercise, idk who those people are
mats: you tracking this year's 'cyber grand challenge'?
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-29#1511423 << this is a political choice, the matter's discussed pluriously. hitler pays the bill for "what he did" AND for what "he made us do". microshit has no way out of liability for the same reason the conclusion of 390 gaul campaign was not "a delegation of older women from each side got together to list each side's complaints and sufferances equally and wail together".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-27 17:55 mircea_popescu: "i'll pay your son to rape your wife with money taken from your house" is the byline of the revolution.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-29#1511426 << for ~the same reason you're invited to not value cars by the process of running down the street in a gaggle of boys this age yelling at times "whoa this is a good one, 250!" because the car had a speedometer backing listing that number.
☝︎ mircea_popescu: but no, the 100 is not a trend indicator, it's a situation indicator. long term historical prices indicate the trend, future spot indicates the short term.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what you might think for unclear and i suspect unexamined reasons, finance is actually a quite sensible, rather complex and definitely satisfying art.
mircea_popescu: in places has a lot in common with "submarine piloting".
mircea_popescu: a submarine doesn't drive, not like a car at any rate. a submarine is a lot closer to a plane, ie, "a dot being moved on a graph". except the plane has a much ampler bubble.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-29#1511429 << not as a civilian, and for the very obvious reason. (or at least it should be obvious - past a few hundred or so, adding more "opinion"ators does not improve the overall quality of the resultant opinion, even if it increases the costs of resulting it.which is also why "inclusive" programs always fail. so people trying to figure this shit out really don't need anymore noise. good en
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 11:43 asciilifeform: the above is why i never dug into the 'pricing of energetics' thing in detail - i find he subj quite similar to, e.g., usg unemployment figures - i have no access to the seeeekrit evidence required to cut away the fiction from the reality
mircea_popescu: ough as it is, with everyone lying to everyone every chance they get, as part and parcel of what economics IS, this branch of cryptocurrency.)
mircea_popescu: but, ~nothing keeps you from taking the oath and then you'll know. and have no time for anything else, included remembering why the fuck you wanted to know in the first place. such is the wonder.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-29#1511434 << this example doesn't work because when valuing "cars" one makes a deliberate exception of the $15 cost of the raw sheet metal going in. there is no such thing as minerals that aren't also stolen cars. again for the obvious reason - nobody's mommy picks molybden ingots from under her nails as normal part of morning hygiene.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 11:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had an article, iirc, where 'when considering avg price of cars, do not also average in the price of stolen cars sold in a hurry'
mircea_popescu: you have no title over any minerals, not anymore you have it over bitcoin, or that lady's purse.
mircea_popescu: the minor difference that NO ONE ELSE has title on the first two, and supposedly the lady on the third, is not germane to YOUR position.
mircea_popescu: and the deep reason title is the problem is this : that my own slavegirl, i will beat. but random whore, i will not.
mircea_popescu: ie, one doesn't improve matter he doesn't hold title to.
mircea_popescu: mno. title as understood by idiots is a convenient fiction, much like santa-the-gift-giver is a convenient fiction. this fiction does not mean it's a good idea to be a bad kiddy, in either case.
mircea_popescu: title, as a convenient fiction in common parlance, nevertheless translates a deep and important ontological difference.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between cow and rifle. other than the objectively obvious and in general.
mircea_popescu: ie, that the cow is the product of someone nursing a veal ; whereas the rifle wasn't nursed from pistolhood. the joke's a joke, but "your" car and "your" chunk of copper aren't the same thing.
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes "made of human fat" is answerable. the problem is - everything's made of human fat. much more important a question is, to use ballas' exceptionally apt terminology for the matter, "is this an impossible fantasy to be pursued at the expene of your labour and your life" ? the lori gottlieb question.
mircea_popescu: it is ALSO answerable, except not in certain ways. from a particular solipsistic position, the "probability" of there existing such a thing as a cube of bronze is just as remote as the probability of there existing a cube of antimatter the same size.
mircea_popescu: THIS incidentally is a problem you run into all the time.
mircea_popescu: Mahmood Khadeer , " president and co-founder of the Muslim Association of Puget Sound (MAPS)" ?
mircea_popescu: it'd have to be a state the art ownatron. seeing how rusty stoves has small chances of finding squares quite so deliciously.
mircea_popescu: seems improbable that dropped baby manages to compile hello world. to my eyes it's rather deliberate, but anyway.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-29#1511439 << not so, sadly. mathematics is accessible, yes, but only to the clear mind. the determined mind has clarity problems definitionally. you generally see just how fucking accessible mathematics is to the determined mind when reviewing the quality of statistics work produced by determined minds.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 11:59 asciilifeform: which is, that mathematics is ~accessible~ to the determined mind. always, with no exception, WITHOUT demanding a swallowing of seekrit evidence.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but you do, in a sense. where's that oglaf...
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 12:08 asciilifeform: was there an article?
mircea_popescu: sadly all the idiots are busy "researching" their way out of the hole digging in just about the opposite direction.
mircea_popescu: but my vituperations of "iliteracy" as exemplified by your arcane symbology et all is not unrelated.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the irony of ironies, smooth in its uncanny fineness, is that THERE WOULD BE what to do to pay back the money spent on "studies".
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 14:33 trinque: hm odd, I've got something to fix in deedbot's ghost logic. apparently ghost doesn't work if the ghosted nick disconnects in between the connection and ghost.
mircea_popescu: love how they present this "anyone has to assume they are being eavesdropped on" as some sort of bad thing. cuz you know, it's not mother-usa doing it.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 15:04 shinohai: I know you're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna stuff it all in an iso and try a build later with no internetz again
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 15:18 mod6: <+shinohai> I know you're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna stuff it all in an iso and try a build later with no internetz again << this /should/ fail. because buildroot won't be able to pull all of its stuff down.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-29 15:18 mod6: <+shinohai> I know you're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna stuff it all in an iso and try a build later with no internetz again << this /should/ fail. because buildroot won't be able to pull all of its stuff down.
shinohai: Hey mircea_popescu doesn't think I'm *totally* crazy :D
deedbot: peter___ voiced for 30 minutes.
peter___: is this interview happening today?
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Mahmood Khadeer <mhkhadee@hotmail.com>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DD deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'none <algemeenoptie2@gmail.com>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/06C393B10 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Bjoern Schroedel <bjoern.schroedel@gmx.de>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgke deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Nick Ruston <alliancemicro@dodemall.redcheetah.com>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs. deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Bjoern Schroedel <bjoern@schroedel.cc>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/78 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'john <john.k.pescador@hawaii.gov>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C2F16F6 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 89884656743115795386465259539451236680898848947115328636715040578866337902750481566354238661203768010560056939935696678829394884407208311246423715319737062188883946712432742638151109800623047059726541476042502884419075341171231440736956555270413618581675255342293149119973622969239858152417678164812112069763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Godless Prayer <godless.prayer@gmx.de>; ' -
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C2 trinque: haven't fucking gotten to it
mircea_popescu: publicly going too far imo, not even sure it's for lordship.
mircea_popescu: why exactly would someone pop a magic number in there ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, your thing, your call. i dun see the benefit.
trinque: +asciilifeform │ ah i forgot that phf's rubbish log is down again << I don't remember anyone in-wot signing any code for whatever shoddy IRC daemon freenode uses.
trinque: thought somebody was working on a replacement for all that
trinque: eh assbot was disconnected time to time as well
trinque: I clearly recall him going to kick it time to time
mircea_popescu: it was pretty stable. current situation is by comparison pretty scandalous. not perfect, sure, but perfecter.
trinque: I've shared some code with phf, but can otherwise just feed him log data from deedbot if he ever wants
trinque: all mine lacks at the moment is knowing to just switch to the nick if ghost fails
trinque: shared a vpatch with him to look over the other day
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform thinking about it, dead drop for key factor would in fact produce a very cheap and effective leak method. someone finding themselves in possession of such data doesn't currently have a good way to dump it, gotta go through the greenwaldwall at best.
mircea_popescu: but for this to work will have to be public rather than wot.
mircea_popescu: maybe interview the guy about muslims etc ; drop it sideways mid interview.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ;;later tell BingoBoingo consider qntra-fication for the Mahmood Khadeer find ? << Maybe do a draft?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo or any other energetic fella , might be interested in writing to khadeer about 'his' pubkey ? << WHo wants this scoop?
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell peter___ Who is your daddy and what does he do. Also what interview?
deedbot: smickles voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: that moment when you realise that the two funny looking horn items a foot apart embedded in bathroom wall are NOT actually towel hangers.
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY right height for 1.79 girl to hold on for dear life on.