assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31880 @ 0.0006189 = 19.7305 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: has anyone ever messed around with sighash_anyonecanpay?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61876 @ 0.00058446 = 36.164 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25262 @ 0.00061708 = 15.5887 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15900 @ 0.00063427 = 10.0849 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00063427 = 4.5667 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6200 @ 0.00063112 = 3.9129 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2950 @ 0.00063112 = 1.8618 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: >I think OP_RETURN has shown itself to be seriously problematic; and we continue to have problems with people beleving that storing non-bitcoin related data in the chain (as opposed, e.g. to simple commitments or things like ECDH nonces) is an approved, correct, non-antisocial use of the system.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00063427 = 21.692 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: any way bitcoin can be used is a fine way to use bitcoin.
assbot: Change the default maximum OP_RETURN size to 80 bytes by Flavien · Pull Request #5286 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/13yxXgE )
decimation: kakobrekla: the guy writes in a normative way as if he was in charge of something
assbot: Change the default maximum OP_RETURN size to 80 bytes by Flavien · Pull Request #5286 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/13yyb7s )
ben_vulpes: Luke-Jr: "Perhaps we should set the default to a random value between 0-80 at startup, to incentivise miners making their own decision without actually forcing it explicitly."
kakobrekla: the whole thing is pretty far out there.
danielpbarron: what happens if one of these things gets included in a block? does a pre 0.6.* node reject the whole block?
gribble: Current Blocks: 335934 | Current Difficulty: 3.945767130713873E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 336671 | Next Difficulty In: 737 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 15 hours, 56 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 39418386145.2 | Estimated Percent Change: -0.09956
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37186 @ 0.00063468 = 23.6012 BTC [+] {3}
Luke-Jr: danielpbarron: this OP_RETURN stuff has nothing to do with the consensus system or blocks
Luke-Jr: it's just node policy - what the node in question will choose to relay, mine, etc
Luke-Jr: so ideally it should be determined by each node operator, not a centralised group
kakobrekla: currently if you mine with version x you allow for 80 bytes and with version y 40 ?
Luke-Jr: kakobrekla: I think it's 40 in all released versions
Luke-Jr: 0.10 will allow changing it, at least (I forget if it increased to 80)
Luke-Jr: actually, if that pull request is still open, the default must still be 40
kakobrekla: why does the guy in the thread there talk about some 'change'
Luke-Jr: kakobrekla: when OP_RETURN code was initially merged to git, it was 80; it changed to 40 prior to any release
Luke-Jr: so since node operators are lazy and don't set their own policies, it puts a weird centralising pressure to try to make some kind of one-size-fits-all policy. which makes for lots of stupid political arguments
Luke-Jr: so my idea there was to just have the default be some not-totally-absurd random value, so at least people who care about datacarrier support set it themselves
kakobrekla: well if we are shifting the blame we can shift it on the miners for not giving shit and devs for not making it easy
Luke-Jr: it's not a miner-only thing; each node has a policy
Luke-Jr: I'm certainly working on trying to make it easy though - see my CNodePolicy pull request
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32860 @ 0.00063627 = 20.9078 BTC [+] {2}
Luke-Jr: one of my goals right now is to make it so people can just drop a Python/Ruby/whatever script in their bitcoin directory for their policy
Luke-Jr: without having to hack C++, recompile, or worry about accidentally breaking consensus code
kakobrekla: anyway i dont think most pool ops are capable of making political decisions or code changes
Luke-Jr: well, that's another thing :p
Luke-Jr is also working on taking policy decisions away from pool ops
Luke-Jr: well, at the very least, people can outsource their policy to someone other than the pool
Luke-Jr: let anyone run their own policy server, and others can use that
Luke-Jr: no more "I have a good policy idea, but nobody will use it because I have 5 Mh/s"
Luke-Jr: now miners will safely use your policy without losing out on their pooled earnings
kakobrekla: rely tx policies is like you are temporarily covering yourself with a blanket
Luke-Jr: in a centralised world, perhaps
Luke-Jr: wtf is bbet and why do I care?
kakobrekla: i thought you were blocking gambling stuff ?
Luke-Jr: trolls like to claim my spamfilter is gambling-related blacklisting or something
Luke-Jr: they miss the fact that Catholics consider gambling moral
kakobrekla: yeah but btc doesnt give a fuck about catholics
kakobrekla: anyway, i would not really give away the addys. not because of the damage you couldnt do but i was saying it to point out its a battle against infinity.
kakobrekla: at some point your rules to save resources will eat up more resources than just eating what comes.
Luke-Jr: kakobrekla: sure, but as long as some spam is easy to pick out, might as well
Luke-Jr: and my point was that the trolls' claim is ridiculous, since I have no incentive to block gambling at all
kakobrekla: yea lets not rehash this or else its gonna end in fuck you.
decimation: it's amusing to see an argument of the form "I'm doing action X which tends to result in Y, but only trolls would believe that I want the result Y because reason R"
hanbot: heya thestringpuller, thx, tho ninjaderpgun would be impossible to unfunnicize
hanbot: & merry holiday greeting y'all
gribble: Error: "merry" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: What sort of person cares enough to burn time spamming?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16042 @ 0.00063491 = 10.1852 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> no ordinary spam. some bozo put in actual sweat for no immediately apparent purpose. << All spam involves those elements. This just takes it to a different level...
cazalla: given BingoBoingo posted in the original thread, i am inclined to think he responsible for said hijinxs :P
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Well, Jurov dropped the link. NinjaSpamzor is a moderator or some shit on that venue though.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32500 @ 0.00063826 = 20.7435 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20487 @ 0.00064001 = 13.1119 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00063725 = 36.4507 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4756 @ 0.00064039 = 3.0457 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32336 @ 0.00063716 = 20.6032 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15975 @ 0.00063638 = 10.1662 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13200 @ 0.00063637 = 8.4001 BTC [-]
adlai: asciilifeform: the purpose is crystal clear. for somebody out there, this channel and/or its pervading mentality represents something they are against, and they gave their best shot to hinder its growth
adlai: this is not surprising. this channel has strong ideologies and discusses them in hyperbolized monochrome, and absolute certainty polarizes absolutely.
adlai: for the record, i think that's a shame and a sin, and that y'all are a little silly for this - but that may be the guinness speaking, or jack, or johnny. who knows.
adlai: now i'm in the weird position of being out of drugs, but the workday has just begun
adlai: that's a lie though, there is no shortage of caffeine
adlai: also my entire flat reeks of puke, and it's not even mine >_<
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89100 @ 0.00064128 = 57.138 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23439 @ 0.00063612 = 14.91 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: adlai: "best shot" << unimpressive, if you ask me.
adlai: well, they found themselves at the three point line with nobody nearby, so they tried to make the best of the situation
adlai: then they got flying tackled by their own hubris, but that's nonamabusiness
adlai: pretty sure i glanced the peak for a sec there, but i'm rapidly descending. fuck.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17300 @ 0.00063112 = 10.9184 BTC [-]
adlai: these may have been the most important 15 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) of the past like three months
adlai: until now, scalpl never actually considered profitability of placed offers against past execution. now it does.
adlai is still amazed that it was net-profitable without this little reflection
adlai: problem is that net-profitable over X months or Y volume is no guarantee of future performance, and not considering past execution is a little silly
ben_vulpes: adlai: have you started hunting bots yet? or seen anyone hunting scalpl?
adlai: you could say that scalpl passively hunts any and every bot that uses market orders
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00063362 = 7.8569 BTC [+]
adlai doesn't know of anybody specific who's hunting scalpl, but knows of at least one person who said that open sourcing it is braindeadingly retarted and that it'll get hunted to death immediately.
adlai: this person is a "quant", ie former algotrader at JP Stanley Chase
adlai: he has a startup now
adlai: one of the give-me-your-exchange-API-keys-and-i'll-make-you-money
adlai: so you could say he's a competitor!
adlai isn't asking for any keys though, just handing out code like it's a positive-sum game
adlai: please, read my source and hunt me
ben_vulpes: no thx, i've got other fishies to fry.
adlai: well damnit how am i supposed to get better
ben_vulpes: gave me the willies when first i looked at it
ben_vulpes: odds are better that i'm just a barbarian though
adlai: this is the first baby step in my journey to reinvent parallel computer
ben_vulpes: all i've read that you've written is scalpl
ben_vulpes: man it is *infuriating* how github urls can't be walked
adlai: this code isn't really used in scalpl yet, i'm kinda manually hacking together a shitty version of what this could eventually become
adlai: it may not want to be walked, but when did that ever stop a determined dogsitter?
adlai: ok traders. pls, xmas is over, i want some volume now. thx.
adlai wants to see his work shattered to bits by the invisible hand
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1316 @ 0.00119106 = 1.5674 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18900 @ 0.00064113 = 12.1174 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: i got a chapstick that was on bargain but then I realize I don't have lips why did the freemarket betray me
adlai: you could just clone the damn thing, make me feel better when i obsess over my traffic stats
adlai: no, because github cache traffic stats
assbot: Logged on 26-12-2014 09:05:31; ben_vulpes: your cl is oddly object oriented
adlai: the Right Thing™ would be to use cl-json instead of st-, and schematize everything
punkman: how goes the scalpeling adlai
adlai: well thank you, how goes the deeding? :P
punkman: not very well obviously :P
adlai: "ask not what your qntry can do for you, ask what you can do for your qntry"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1000 @ 0.001195 = 1.195 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: qntry is giving out free laptops/tablets and internet, so we can have more derps on reddit
adlai: qntry should give out free venture funding, so we can have more derps on mpex
punkman: was trying to turn off all energy savings and picture "enhancement" features on TV yesterday, found out it runs FreeBSD
adlai: y u hate the planet
jurov: <BingoBoingo> [20141226 04:56] cazalla: Well, Jurov dropped the link. << actually BingoBoingo pm'd me "act like you've discovered it" jkjk
jurov: punkman maybe it has easily accessible serial port?
punkman: jurov, I read Panasonic GPG signs firmware updates somewhere
punkman: nobody seems to have hacked one of these yet
jurov: wouldn't be beyond them to have exposed rs422 points somewhere, or at least a backdoor
punkman: I hooked up debian box, mostly worked, except for HD video, or subtitles of course
punkman: mplayer being retarded I guess
punkman: it might work if I start recompiling everything to cutting edge version
punkman: but I got other things to rage at
punkman: even puny first-gen xbox with XBMC worked better than this
punkman: VLC = 150% CPU utilization and no video
punkman: oh shit they rebranded XBMC, "Due to the potential for typo-bugs and breakage from Kodi renaming YOU ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO MAKE A FULL BACKUP before performing a manual update and perform a “Reset System Settings to defaults (Soft Reset)” after the update."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34024 @ 0.00063857 = 21.7267 BTC [-]
davout: punkman: does the deeds system actually work?
punkman: yeah someone was cashing out the faucet
ben_vulpes: that was a stated goal though, correct?
davout: deeds.bitcoin-assets.com isn't very informative in this regard, but maybe it's just me being too lazy to actually figure out how to talk to punkbot
punkman: davout, no it's dead at the moment
davout: punkman: whaddaya mean?
davout: i was thinking about it the other day, about how it might make sense to embed some variant of it in a smartphone photo app >> take a pic, boom proof of existence
davout: why would this require keys on the phone ?
punkman: ben_vulpes: you just send pic to some bot
davout: just sha256 it and send that to the bot
punkman: can do this with existing bot, if you compress it to 32kb or less
davout: the bot doesn't, and shouldn't, know about the actual data it is timestamping
davout: iirc that's absolutely not how the deeds system is implemented
punkman: it doesn't really care about contents
punkman: doesn't work without GPG of course
assbot: Logged on 01-12-2014 15:03:57; punkman: while we're on the topic, I want to make a service that fetches a URL, hashes contents, and then bundles and notarizes those. thoughts?
davout: what made you decide on requiring the contents to be gpg signed ?
davout: who decided, and why, that the contents should be gpg signed ?
davout: guess i didn't see the spec
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2015 @ 0.00119993 = 2.4179 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23350 @ 0.00063639 = 14.8597 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21740 @ 0.00063733 = 13.8556 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3600 @ 0.00063857 = 2.2989 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26420 @ 0.00064508 = 17.043 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42574 @ 0.00062998 = 26.8208 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1000 @ 0.00119 = 1.19 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: davout: who decided, and why, that the contents should be gpg signed ? << it was mp's spec. even if you don't want to tie messages to identity, need some kind of access control and WoT works well for that
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9950 @ 0.00065088 = 6.4763 BTC [+]
Azelphur: why wouldn't it be? that's the JSONRPC interface, which is HTTP
ben_vulpes: on the other hand, why not code it right in...
ben_vulpes: i don't know shit about shinola, though.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00062958 = 17.3764 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33350 @ 0.00062568 = 20.8664 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29250 @ 0.00062102 = 18.1648 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Now Whitehall's crazy eco zealots want to ban your gas cooker, writes CHRISTOPHER BOOKER | Daily Mail Online ... (
http://bit.ly/1xnOB0k )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38943 @ 0.00062836 = 24.4702 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1104 @ 0.00119906 = 1.3238 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1959 @ 0.00119978 = 2.3504 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44702 @ 0.00064297 = 28.742 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30350 @ 0.00064813 = 19.6707 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38300 @ 0.00065244 = 24.9885 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28025 @ 0.00065364 = 18.3183 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Yes. Call out comment point scores. 6 from 5 comments. Way to wound a man's ego.
punkman: "“Thanks @KimDotcom for the vouchers–you’re the reason we stopped the attacks. @MegaPrivacy is an awesome service,” Lizard Squad tweeted, confirming the successful intervention."
assbot: Floorca comments on Satoshi Nakamoto Institute Launch Podcast (First episode linked: Appcoins and Bitcoin Maximalism from Daniel Krawisz and Michael Goldstein) ... (
http://bit.ly/13JQTcA )
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2871 @ 0.00117582 = 3.3758 BTC [-] {25}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2107 @ 0.00115122 = 2.4256 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19350 @ 0.00064483 = 12.4775 BTC [-]
jurov: future will end the obituaries "Created by Facebook"
adlai: ok, the orlov piece is good. i'll settle for equally obligatory.
adlai: the lines between faking dead social media profiles, faking a living person's profile (that they don't know of), and creating profiles for a person never even born - are quite fine.
adlai: fuck me, ask google
adlai: (signs point to yes)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42150 @ 0.00065497 = 27.607 BTC [+] {2}
adlai: humpty numpty sat on the wall. was he put or did he call?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22783 @ 0.0006376 = 14.5264 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28305 @ 0.00065558 = 18.5562 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3666 @ 0.00065725 = 2.4095 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: So the new North Korea movie. Not bad. Indicts the United States about as seriously as it indicts North Korea.
cazalla: BingoBoingo, i was going to watch that yesterday, settled on dumb and dumber to, fell asleep from the sambuca and up at 430am given i nodded off early
BingoBoingo: Ah. It's basically Pineapple Express with less drugs and more scenes filmed in Asia.
cazalla: asciilifeform, he was having a laugh with the host while saying that
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: he threatened to call my mummy
ben_vulpes: interesting to watch the attack escalate.
ben_vulpes: if only tiberius were still with us. now *that* was some trolling.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: difference this time around seems to be that this orbiter is now terrified for his business propositions in the shartupsphere.
ben_vulpes: it is now tarred by association with #bitcoin-assets
assbot: 3000 Tor relays in an hour, all called LizardNSA[0-9]+Interesting.
punkman: same guys Kim Dotcom paid off with Mega vouchers
assbot: To clarify, we are no longer attacking PSN or Xbox. We are testing our new Tor 0day.
assbot: Our ddos was possible thanks to rooted undersea routers used on transatlantic cables.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22250 @ 0.00063375 = 14.1009 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: interested in your take on my question
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: arbitrary walks of blockchain data << i think that i disagree here.
ben_vulpes: i'm currently of the opinion that providing a tube through which to suck the blockchain is accetable.
ben_vulpes: querying of arbitrary bitcoin data is beyond bitcoind's remit imho.
ben_vulpes: why is balance enough in that situation? what can you do with balance that you don't in reality need the specific unspent outputs for?
ben_vulpes: one can know an arbitrary address has been paid an amount trivially that way.
ben_vulpes: then you know the last received block and ideally you have all of the blocks since then and can walk them.
ben_vulpes: that's why i'm suggesting that data analysis be not a part of bitcoin.
ben_vulpes: i've used it to watch incoming blocks, but not suffering 6 month discontinuities.
cazalla: well, that didn't take long.. bitcoinfoundation.org has redesigned their website yet again
cazalla: looks like they removed the black kid photostock images too, such racists
ben_vulpes: that though is not a function of intermittently walking the recent blocks. function of braindamaged "db" implementation.
cazalla: they've also reattributed what were patrick murck's articles to one jinyoung
ben_vulpes: i'm circling around the notion that all bitcoin should do on the topic is vomit forth blocks on command, referenced by height. perhaps transactions, but i'm not even convinced about that.
ben_vulpes: i'm not arguing against parsing the blocks. it must verify the chain on download and be able to regurgitate the data on command. i suppose that i'm being too dense to grasp your meaning.
ben_vulpes: ah, forgive me. i mean "blocks" as in relatively easily handled block data. for example, the json that's returned from getblock.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6750 @ 0.00063375 = 4.2778 BTC [-]
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Billion dollar bet?"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1047/ Odds: 12(Y):88(N) by coin, 16(Y):84(N) by weight. Total bet: 17.32065114 BTC. Current weight: 39,912.
assbot: Logged on 25-12-2014 03:52:10; asciilifeform: every day i wonder why the 'arm' architecture so thoroughly beat 'mips' (closest competitor in the 'risc' world) in the markets
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2100 @ 0.00065367 = 1.3727 BTC [+]
decimation: lol re: mr. spam's email << me thinks the lady doth protest too much
decimation: "But this whole discussion has taken something for granted: that if we let more great programmers into the US, they'll want to come. That's true now, and we don't realize how lucky we are that it is. ... And if we don't, the US could be seriously fucked."
decimation thinks that time horizon has already been reached
decimation: thought experiment: what if tomorrow infinite immigration between the US and say Europe was allowed? What percentage of "exceptional programmers" would leave their current lives to go work for some hobo in Silly-con valley?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62300 @ 0.00063118 = 39.3225 BTC [-] {3}
decimation: asciilifeform: your 'offline' blockchain scenario is interesting. thought experiment: what if there was a new cold war and the Internet cleanly split in two halves?
decimation: which half of the blockchain is now 'valid'? the one that is longest?
decimation: if a harddrive were sent across the iron curtain, how would the transactions on the other side be reconciled?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00064892 = 11.8103 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10399 @ 0.00061653 = 6.4113 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1090 @ 0.00119 = 1.2971 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16783 @ 0.00064909 = 10.8937 BTC [+] {2}
Apocalyptic: <asciilifeform> paul graham << what the everliving fuck is a 'great programmer' anyway // he gave some interesting property of such a creature, but no definition alas
Apocalyptic: to quote "A great programmer will invent things an ordinary programmer would never even think of."
Apocalyptic: note the dubious claim that a programmer nowadays will invent stuff
undata: laying brick in some marketing related startup
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, do you define inventor as someone who has invented something before ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16322 @ 0.00064125 = 10.4665 BTC [-]
Apocalyptic: he meant people that will presumably invent something worthy for the company
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21017 @ 0.00064988 = 13.6585 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16350 @ 0.00065793 = 10.7572 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11253 @ 0.00065913 = 7.4172 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14902 @ 0.00064805 = 9.6572 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00063289 = 5.5694 BTC [-]
decimation: asciilifeform: all the 'ceo' will accomplish hiring 30 'actual inventors' will be to produce 30 disgrunted ex-employees
decimation: asciilifeform: thinking about my scenario earlier (two halves of the world), the real issue is that transactions need to be communicated as well as the blockchain
decimation: I assume all of the transactions in the extinct chain are swept into new blocks from that point forward?
assbot: blockchain - What happens when you send a transaction that ends up in an orphaned block. Is it recoverable? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... (
http://bit.ly/1H3gThT )