jurov: no they're all about bahts, have you seen the symbol?
mircea_popescu: anyway, things are getting pretty much wrapped up, im upgrading mpex.co back online from "this week" to "today".
gesell: mircea_popescu: thanks for the link
jcpham: the op of the asicminer pool decided to fork his pool for a few minutes
dub: not commiserate with teh ideals of bitcoin, kind of person bitcoin does not need.. The person is blatantly and willfully violating the trust of Bitcoin network and for that he/she should be reprimanded.
jcpham: so while bitcoind was running with no db
jcpham: i assume the miners were doing diff 0 shares
jcpham: until the hot wallet was empty
mircea_popescu: gesell mail is not nuts. mail is the strongest, oldest and in general best service ever implemented on the internet.
dub: I didn't think bitcoind offered work until it was synced
jborkl_: I think it would have been network diff at the point of the blockchain download you were mining
gesell: mircea_popescu: yes mail is but using google as a trusted host gate, not sure
jcpham: i upgraded bitcoind today
jcpham: dunno how a pool handles the resync
jborkl_: at block 195000 it was i think 1.95 m for example
jborkl_: so while he was dl, blocks would have been synching fast- but mining at 200k diff
FabianB: mircea_popescu: also proxy discovery included now :)
mircea_popescu: irc logging is a good idea. include a ticker to bold my lines ? :D
mircea_popescu: "If bank places by mistake 10k into your account, and you cash it out, your will probably rot in jail.."
dub: thats true, at least here
pigeons: if you dont give it back you will
FabianB: mircea_popescu: it's just the conversation of MPEx.rb with the irc bots, not of this channel
jcpham: if the pool with the most hashrate is mining on a non -up-to-date copy of the blockchain
mircea_popescu: dub they will have to sue for unjust enrichment. they may win it,
gesell: mircea_popescu: why not use google spreadsheets for graphs and orderbook review?
pigeons: which is why mp lost in his own hand picked rota
gesell: in that scenerio you would script updates (not pull from an api, as this might overrun google apps limits)
mircea_popescu: pigeons not really true. they always will try to convince the person to return it
mircea_popescu: but afaik such claims are rare. usually cost more to sue than they'd get
pigeons: really, absoulutely trye. give me one example where its not
mircea_popescu: gesell you can go right ahead, or what are you asking ?
kakobrekla: i have seen it happen here and the bank gets the money back one way or another
pigeons: ive seen plenty where it is true, none where it isnt
mircea_popescu: pigeons you've seen a case where a bank sued the recipient of an error for unjust enrichment ?
dub: pretty sure its straight up law here
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01401 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01401 BTC [-]
dub: bank fucks up, give it back or the police come get you
gesell: mircea_popescu: well i would be happy to make some spreadsheets to pull the order books but this would require some sort of mpex api (json or xml or whatever) for that and again, leave you open to ddos. but if you pushed the data onto your own public spreadsheet you would avoid any ddos on your public facing graphs and orderbooks
pigeons: dont have my lexisnexis here
gesell: mircea_popescu: not in bit. checking again
gesell: oh didnt see the sierra chart feed
mircea_popescu: also kakobrekla has a websocket feed he's been selling people.
gesell: mircea_popescu: are those feeds not effected by the ddos?
mircea_popescu: nothing's affected other than the website which people somehow get fixated on.
gesell: mircea_popescu: it's the face. but is interesting to contemplate what that means and reshaping it.
gesell: mircea_popescu: well its also strange that the proxy seems to be a mirror. as apposed to it being it's own form of interface.
FabianB: well stock trading volume went down, but never stopped; options as usual
gesell: if the face effects trades then, well, recovery should be monitored. and hopefully there is recovery
pigeons: and people can learn to trade anyway
smickles: so the ddoser's name is "the face"?
gesell: mircea_popescu: for lack of a better comparison... say for instance that some brokerage firm was had their own interface to nyse showing trades and tickers. this would "feel" decoupled from the excchange itself so people would not associate the two. if nyse decided to change how they present themselves that brokerage face would not be percieved as, i dont know, a quick crutch to fill the gap. where as when it is mirroring nyse so closely
gesell: mircea_popescu: hobby web dev for aesthetics. serious code and hardware hacker for the $
pigeons: basically, mircea_popescu does not care how it "feels"
gesell: hacker meaning reverse engineer (meaning, f;ing serious)
gesell: pigeons: even if he doesnt care. it is still interesting to consider what the market effects of change of face are, and where the middle ground is, and where there is space to innovate in a intuitive way. or maybe there isnt really
smickles: gesell: did you notice that my mpexbot has a direct line into mpex, yet doesn't look like a mirror?
mircea_popescu: pigeons that is exactly the opposite of reality. i very much care how it feels. which is why the proxy doesn't have spurious dongles, but feels just like the real tihng.
gesell: pigeons: if change of face did effect trade volume, that is interesting to explore
mircea_popescu: what i don't care about is appearance bullshit. there's a very good reason for that : unlike the web, the retail market for plastic figurines and fake fags,
gesell: smickles: yeah mpexbot... so it could be that just as mpex forces people to understand that the odd security model is better (and forces people to learn why and learn what pgp is) maybe it is of value to force them to use a different interface in a similar way. but the cause and effect is not as clear with the Web vs Mpexbot, as it was with the gpg protocol
mircea_popescu: for some reason i have a lot of trouble following this guy.
smickles: mircea_popescu: that mpex gui i'm developing is nearly functionally complete
mircea_popescu: what do they feed you over there, uppers in speedball sauce ?
FabianB: gesell: in both cases you need gpg to trade
smickles: pigeons: not minecraft, but opengl like was discussed yesterday
gesell: mircea_popescu: not sure. i think i just dont explain abstract thoughts well.
pigeons: i want bricks of some sort then
mircea_popescu: pigeons lemme quote a person familiar with the matter, for your benefit :
gesell: smickles: is that QT based?
mircea_popescu: "i get the feeling ima wake up one of these days and like there will be a little mpex anthill, and mpex transaction wallpaint and i can order a stat from the magazin alimentar"
gesell: then i hope the buy button creates a buy event on button down and not button released ;)
smickles: gesell: it's a toolkit which uses opengl, i don't know too much about it
smickles: and that i should be able to make binaries for win, mac, linux and android with it
smickles: gesell: aw, i picked button released, is that bad?
gesell: smickles: yes, they people on upper speedball sauce will have to click for each buy whereas on button down they could just Hooooooold and buy shit loads
smickles: lol, well, the buy button goes to a detailed asset page with price and quantity inputs
smickles: yeah, i'd figure you'd want to know the best ask if you planned to buy
dub: this is mpex, we invest for the future, regardless of price
smickles: i have that one drawn up right now. left side full depth (scrollable) right 2/3's has details up at top and input middle, confirmation button at bottom
gesell: kivy is interesting. new to me
dub: if you care about price you are the wrong kind of investor
smickles: also, the thing is proxy aware and checks for updated proxy lists
smickles: that is how botnets work tho, isn't it?
smickles: i think i've lost every bitbet bet i've made
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.19999 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: i can make you a special 'yes and no is switched' interface
mircea_popescu: if person clicks it site is color switched (everything)
mircea_popescu: and yes/no also switched in menus but not in actual effect.
mircea_popescu: dude i'm asking you for the difficult, you're asking me for the impossible.
mircea_popescu: maybe i should upgrade the php proxies to also forward mail.
pigeons: i'm down with finger instead of this twitter stuff
smickles: haha, come to mpexbot to check your email !
smickles: $mail \n <mpexbot> 3 ways to a larger PENIS
mircea_popescu: it should have a list. if person is not on that list, "You're not cool enough for this service sorry."
mpexbot: and if you can, hire a group to make it happenj
mircea_popescu: you can charge like .01 btc for lifetime membership or something
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 6 @ 0.00999 = 0.0599 BTC [+]
dub: you goddamn hacker how did you get my password
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.19999 BTC [-]
gribble: Error: "slab" is not a valid command.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 48.16000, Best ask: 48.18310, Bid-ask spread: 0.02310, Last trade: 48.16000, 24 hour volume: 41803.52824419, 24 hour low: 45.47100, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 47.48502
gesell: its a shame geocities is down. mpex hosted via geocities would just be perfect
dub: I swear its synergy throwing away half my keystrokes
mpexbot: smickles: No new messages received.
mpexbot: ThickAsThieves: To sign up for this service, contact smickles. Cost will be 0.01 BTC.
mpexbot: smickles: depth, email, post, proxies, and vwap
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.2 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: i assume all email revenue goes to making mpex aesthetic improvements
smickles: the list just keeps growing. In two weeks, we'll have something like nano's gribble on our hands
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: No new messages received.
assbot: [BTCTC] [BITVPS] 1 @ 0.00401 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BITVPS] 50 @ 0.004 = 0.2 BTC [-]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 48.19322, Best ask: 48.19341, Bid-ask spread: 0.00019, Last trade: 48.19322, 24 hour volume: 41895.49680393, 24 hour low: 45.47100, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 47.48907
FabianB: thank you maximian, if that was you
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.19999 BTC [-]
gesell: what tha, btc24 now second largest exchange? that was fast
gesell: beh, they got their own bots on the exchnage <shakes fist> not that it matters
gesell: not sure how bitdata compiled that chart. it isnt eur specific
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C470T] 192 @ 0.19228973 = 36.9196 BTC [+]
gesell: puts bitstamp and btc24 at %2 behind mtgox both
gesell: i swear to god they have their own bots running on the exchange. not sure what the objective is but see some bots responding with <200ms timing
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 48.10003, Best ask: 48.19000, Bid-ask spread: 0.08997, Last trade: 48.19000, 24 hour volume: 41520.07762161, 24 hour low: 45.47100, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 47.51308
gesell: perhaps. just mapped their bots edges and it tends to push it's own reserve volume over other bids that it thinks are too low
gesell: up to a certain limit, perhaps set based on numbers of averages on other exchnages
gesell: maybe its an arbitrage protection bot, or not sure
mircea_popescu: have everyone entering fake trades based on the other people's fake trades averages
mircea_popescu: in fact it's probably the main source of volatility atm
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 4 @ 0.19999 = 0.8 BTC [-]
gesell: mircea_popescu: what do you mean by fake trades? I think on btc24, unlike mtgox, if you buy your fiat gets locked and you cant make another order. same on sell. of course their own local bots could fake, but i could not prove this. and actually they wouldnt have to fake, if all they really want to do is some moderate protection from arbitrage
mircea_popescu: and it is feeding it from the trades on other exchanges
mircea_popescu: the net result is a positive feedback loop of great danger
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 2 @ 0.2 = 0.4 BTC [+]
gesell: mircea_popescu: i cant wrap my head around how that would all play out. just assume before running any bot one would make comfortable limits, and some way to guage when things are getting out of control so you know when to turn off
gesell: other than being hacked dont remember bitcoinica gaming the market
gesell: mircea_popescu: havent no
benkay: tempted to pause timer and read
benkay: but also would like to close out workblock, make commits, email people "yay" and go play with dog and lady
mircea_popescu: such balance is apparent in the sorting of the [dog ; lady] set.
benkay: maybe i alpha sort everything on the outfeed, huh?
benkay: in reality, dog needs tiring first
mircea_popescu: PSA : starting yest MPEx is adding 0.001 fee to all txs, whether needed or not (it's almost never actually needed). Support teh network!
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 30 @ 0.00557 = 0.1671 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: reading a digest of the bitcoin-dev chan, i am struck by how incredibly pompous these people are.
mircea_popescu: seriously know. who told them they know shit and when exactly ?!
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 20 @ 0.00524 = 0.1048 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01987 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 11 @ 0.01988 = 0.2187 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 2 @ 0.1796 = 0.3592 BTC [-]
mpexbot: smickles: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: smickles: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
mircea_popescu: would it be possible for the bot to keep a count of the chat lines during past 5 minutes and send that response by pm if value > 50 ?
mircea_popescu: and also send it by pm if it's been sent to the main chat during the past 1 hr
smickles: it would be easist to just send it to pm
smickles: do you think it's spammy as is?
kakobrekla: also side note, pm is short for 'picku mater' which roughty translates for 'mothers cunt'
smickles: well, kakobrekla if you think people are using it too often, let me know and I will switch it to pm response
kakobrekla: wait so one must use it 5 times an hour ?
smickles: yup, also, i added email service to mpexbot
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: kakobrekla: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
dub: ;;echo $depth s.mpoe
mpexbot: gribble: Bids: ['5 @ 73163', '5539 @ 73162', '4961 @ 72543', '10000 @ 71102', '10000 @ 70102']
mpexbot: gribble: Asks: ['502 @ 76717', '12095 @ 76718', '1399 @ 77988', '54540 @ 77999', '500000 @ 78000']
smickles: i might need to fiddle with the 'abuse' configs
mpexbot: smickles: Bids: ['100 @ 530012', '81 @ 530011', '800 @ 530000', '500 @ 520000', '10 @ 520000']
mpexbot: smickles: Asks: ['9299 @ 569996', '1000 @ 569997', '2000 @ 570000', '148 @ 599990', '48346 @ 600000']
mircea_popescu: evoorhees good thinking on upping the you lost returns.
pigeons: yeah be careful with the big bucks till the fork is resolved
pigeons: satoshi dice pausing till resolved
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 8 @ 0.1796 = 1.4368 BTC [-]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 47.75902, Best ask: 47.83005, Bid-ask spread: 0.07103, Last trade: 47.83005, 24 hour volume: 42125.00556719, 24 hour low: 45.54000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 47.65497
dub: now would be a great time to dos guild
dub: any kids watching? :)
mircea_popescu: is this fork in any way related to the two asic miners ?
mircea_popescu: ie, is one avalon sponsored and the other am sponsored ?
dub: no its a block size issue affecting BDB in 0.7
dub: 0.8 is unaffected so 0.7 and 0.8 miners have forked
mircea_popescu: as in, "it's a blocksize issue we've introduced with 0.8"
dub: fix is to move majority hashing back to 0.7
jcpham: anyone want to help me with a e-poll
dub: so if guild went down now it would be teh bitpocalypse
jcpham: it has real world results
gribble: 1 BTC = 47.70000 U.S. dollars = 36.6923077 Euros
dub: mircea_popescu: its a previously unheard of issue with BDB, the block size triggered it
mircea_popescu: jesus passing the buck is like a tradition in bitcoin-devtalk
dub: mircea_popescu: well no, dice fucked up the blockchain
dub: by creating blocks too big for 0.7
mircea_popescu: "let's hide the fact that we suck at coding by falsely accusing someone else of doing things such as trying to externalise their costs on others"\
dub: we only know about it because half the network is on 0.8
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 0.774998 = 1.55 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 4 @ 0.2 = 0.8 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: seems like they could really fuck things up from this point still
jcpham: top three bands get to play
jcpham: trying to make sure my frind's band plays
jcpham: its a big venue for him
dub: fixing the network to make dice fit is the trigger
dub: mircea_popescu: big blocks are the problem here
dub: but I can see you are decided
dub: because the problem is increasing teh blocksize not 0.8
mircea_popescu: this is the same coolaid of saying "sd is hte problem"
dub: because 0.7 nodes can't handle them
mircea_popescu: no dood. the problem is bad code, not the real world constraints that expose it sucks.
dub: because the database sucks
pigeons: because the bug in BDB wasn't encountered before because the number of transactions in a block that trigger it wasnt valid before
dub: <evoorhees> Okay SatoshiDice is on pause now. Receiving bets but not processing anything.
mircea_popescu: so what, we write bugs and that's ok if nobody forces our nose in it "?
mircea_popescu: cause we're too busy acting the knowful shitheads on -dev ?
dub: I think its too early to know if its bdb itself or bitcoins implementation
mircea_popescu: how about bitcoin implementing something that failed is on the devs
mircea_popescu: it's not tested enough to release yet, do not release it.
mircea_popescu: what is this, 1955, we're discovering software engineering ?
dub: im just annoyed that we're not at $2 yet
dub: come on guys, its panic time if ever there was
mircea_popescu: i'm sick and tired of the young cocks circlejerk attitude.
jcpham: let's see how this plays out
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 5 @ 0.56 = 2.8 BTC [+]
dub: speakign of circlejerk
dub: fucking assholes now want to talk about my offer after a week of bullshit
dub: and I'm now ready to buy a different house
gribble: Current Blocks: 225435 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 356 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 5 hours, 24 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | None based on data since last change | 5496120.07656 based on data for last three days
dub: 0 diff would be neat
ThickAsThieves: so if they are forked, then anyone mining the dropped fork is fukt
ThickAsThieves: and anyone helping to push the old fork gets super low diff
dub: gox better not stop this crash
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.50110, Best ask: 45.60134, Bid-ask spread: 0.10024, Last trade: 45.00000, 24 hour volume: 55914.86095949, 24 hour low: 45.00000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 47.30466
mircea_popescu: trading can in principle continuewith what they have deposited in btc and freely on usd.
dub: whois defunctzombie?
dub: he'so offering to halt trading if gox does
pigeons: and halted processing deposits
dub: blockchain is firked
Chaang-Noi: what is the news with gox, just woke up?
dub: bitcoin forked into 0.7 and 0.8 chains
Ukto: pools were todl to increase blocksize
dub: pools are rolling back to 0.7 to fix
Ukto: someo made them too big
Ukto: and olrder clients shat themselves
Chaang-Noi: so coins in our new clients are they gone?
Ukto: Chaang-Noi: that depends on what happens after blockchain merger
Ukto: mircea_popescu is correct
Ukto: but put things on hold
pigeons: everyone go take a walk and get some food and come bac in a few hours
Chaang-Noi: glad i has 150,000 as a back up crypto currancy
mod6: heh you sold 50k 'eh
dub: mircea_popescu: loving the WTC ref
pigeons: yeah ltc could never get this bug because that many transactions in litecoin would never propogate quickly enough to get included in a block
Chaang-Noi: i have not made a btc payment for about 12 hours, will this make me saffer even if i use the new client?
Chaang-Noi: is there a link with more info on the forum or something?
davos: meh - its only down 4, less than 10%
mircea_popescu: crediting incomingpayments may be unsafe, if they are doublespent across the forks
mircea_popescu: and then they merge into one that doesn't include you being paid.
davos: and wrong chat. =D
Chaang-Noi: mp i sold 50k ltc yesterday for btc, odds on this being accepted?
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 43.12000, Best ask: 44.50000, Bid-ask spread: 1.38000, Last trade: 43.12000, 24 hour volume: 62664.75566320, 24 hour low: 43.12000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.92695
Bowjob: All right, what the fuck is going on
Bowjob: This is a huge blow to bitcoin. WTF I thought its supposed to be secure
BitHub: bitcoin been failing a bit lately
BitHub: alot of flaws being exposed
Ukto: this will rpolyl drive ltc prices up
Ukto: almost done with my mini ltc project
BitHub: mircea do you think the bitcoin foundation will pay out a compensation? lul
mircea_popescu: BitHub i'd be more than happy if the usual pompous idiots came out with an apology.
BitHub: mircea who's fault is it?
dub: mircea_popescu: you know the answer right
dub: mircea_popescu: because 'not ready for primetime'
dub: mircea_popescu: its obvious they don't want adoption
Bowjob: wow.. what will the institutional investors think
mircea_popescu: dub yes, they want it forever this niche toy where they matter.
dub: mircea_popescu: at least for the next 100 years
mircea_popescu: when i told them they'll be pushed aside coupla months ago i guess they groked it
BitHub: all good, but yeah, makes me think they could just do this sort of stuff on purpose just to manipulate the price
mircea_popescu: BitHub they're for the most part not intelligent enough to understand the point or value of money.
BitHub: to be honest i have noticed the lack of like really really god like programmers
dub: oh this is gettgin good
dub: you cant downgrade to 0.7
dub: without prev blkindex
BitHub: yeah where is Lord Satoshi?
BitHub: he needs to come in and fix these n00bs mistake
mircea_popescu: the only way is basically foer the people who upgraded to downtime
dub: and no reindex in 0.7 so you have to download and validate the chain
dub: which workd REALLY WELL
BitHub: lul @ In re Bitcoin Devs are idiots
dub: BitHub: they kinda are
smickles: i've got an uptodate .7 chain for s2cm funds
BitHub: ima have to read this :)
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.00000, Best ask: 45.10989, Bid-ask spread: 0.10989, Last trade: 45.00000, 24 hour volume: 66465.70498496, 24 hour low: 43.11000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.77472
smickles: ;;sell 1 "0.7 blockchain" @ 50 btc
Bowjob: this actually scares me.. that bitcoin can be compromised like this
mod6: there you go smickles
Bowjob: I thought we're supposed to be unhackable and shit
BitHub: its getting scammy hey
BitHub: the pyramid is being exposed
Bowjob: Everyone move to lite coin!
mod6: i've got a chain that was last updated dec 29th...
BitHub: just email your wallet.dat to the bitcoin foundation tell them they've won and then hang yourself
Bowjob: Umm I'm using electrum does it run ot 0.08
evoorhees: Bowjob don't be a fool. If you actually saw the devs react to this and remedy it, you'd be very impressed
evoorhees: it's how resilient btc is in the face of them that matters
pizzaman1337: mircea_popescu: have you considered hiring people to work on it?
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 suppose bitcoin was written by mpex devs.
dub: bitcoin is so resilient it only took one satoshidice to break it
Bowjob: btc-e trollbox is celebrating
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of intrinsic strength in the open and independent dev model.
BitHub: hand the code over to bill gates
mircea_popescu: the problem is that much like anything else of the kind, it depends on keeping politics low.
mircea_popescu: wikipedia for instance is similar, and failed for similar reasons.
gesell: mircea_popescu: shorting possitions on mpex?
BitHub: politics, emotions, egos
vampireb: well not a bitcoin issue, the old db was a problem
smickles: gesell: you want to short s.mpoe?
BitHub: why doesn't the bitcoin foundation use all that money to actually hire proper programmers
BitHub: with resumes and stuff
vampireb: hmm? start what? i read pleter's explanation, what isnt clear?
Bowjob: are asics safe and compatible after this?
mircea_popescu: vampireb read up the context in the channel you're talking.
BitHub: isn't that the foundation job? or not really?
gesell: will this spill over into the discussion of soft limits and sdice foo?
Bowjob: k thats all i care about
dub: gesell: this will spill over into all manner of discussion
mircea_popescu: this will probably be the foundation of all further discussions
smickles: well, if anyone want's to short s.mpoe, i have a fair amout of shares available
BitHub: what is the point of the foundation
dub: BitHub: they supply the biscuit
vampireb: i dont have the context, but ok
dub: the one in the middle
mircea_popescu: you make an upgrade that fucks up the network, it's not the db, it's not satoshi, it;s you.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.01000, Best ask: 45.90277, Bid-ask spread: 0.89277, Last trade: 46.50000, 24 hour volume: 70342.96544144, 24 hour low: 43.11000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.71424
benkay: did testnet testing not catch this due to atomic transaction size blah blah?
vampireb: well guess what, that's why when I last time I met gavin he was looking to hire QA
dub: it was over 2000 last night
dub: with no volume at all
dub: I've only seen it >9000 once
dub: but today would be a good candidate
dub: if the 20k failsafe is still there
smickles: "an easy way to do it is to go to home depot with 5 usd, buy stuff to make it happenj"
gribble: Error: "proxies" is not a valid command.
gesell: dub: 20k failsafe means what?
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00530001 / 0.00552804 / 0.0059998 (11830 shares, 65.40 BTC), 7D: 0.00300001 / 0.00514724 / 0.006 (228107 shares, 1,174.12 BTC), 30D: 0.00300001 / 0.00614247 / 0.0069 (2518785 shares, 15,471.58 BTC)
mpexbot: smickles: Bids: ['100 @ 530012', '81 @ 530011', '800 @ 530000', '500 @ 520000', '10 @ 520000']
mpexbot: smickles: Asks: ['9299 @ 569996', '1000 @ 569997', '2000 @ 570000', '148 @ 599990', '48346 @ 600000']
Bowjob: now lucif is gonna make some bullshit up how he calculated this could happen
Bowjob: and we're gonna look like emperors with no clothes
mircea_popescu: vampireb so he was looking to hire a qa. good for him.
benkay: too bad he never got around to it.
vampireb: well devs dont wanna do qa, and u can't really qa your own shit
Bowjob: meanwhile, LTC is surging
vampireb: so what? it isn't the end of the world. a minor hiccup
smickles: "Every be very careful about accepting any transactions for the the next few hours" << what is that supposed to mean :P
benkay: i'd take a bearish position on ltc, settled next month...
the-bucket-shop: never let a tragedy go to waste fellas. Plaster Satoshi Dice's name all over the news and posts if you can.
vampireb: the result: bitcoin foundation would be promoted as a saviour
BitHub: it not the end of the world?
mircea_popescu: smickles that incoming txs might be wiped on fork merge
mircea_popescu: vampireb it's hopefully the end of a certain misplace attitude.
gesell: the-bucket-shop: what do you mean?
gesell: also, what effect would this split have on hash/mining opporutunities?
gesell: brief opportunities if that
mircea_popescu: if it's not temporary then there's no mining oportunities
smickles: mircea_popescu: i know, but how would you be careful about it. seems binary to me
mircea_popescu: im not processing incoming on mpex till its resolved for instance.
gesell: mircea_popescu: even if it is, it will take time for everyone to get on the proper chain, no... since apparently some versions will have to upgrade
benkay: i'm out. this shit's boring.
mircea_popescu: (course i have the advantaghe that my system is designed so such things don't affect me)
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 43.50000, Best ask: 44.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.50000, Last trade: 43.10000, 24 hour volume: 75255.63737110, 24 hour low: 43.10000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.55735
vampireb: ah good that i sold at 47. need to figure when to rebuy
gesell: so, just trying to understand this. how is mtgox processing tx's now. this effects minders and merchants, not exchanges?
dub: <dub> im buying at $10
smickles: gsi don't think they are processing deposits/withdrawals
vampireb: you can trade with existing funds
dub: they dont process tx
dub: unless you fund or withdraw
dub: which is frozen iirc
gesell: dub: perhaps i got the wrong term. if miners and merchants are told to wait, why not exchanges?
Chaang-Noi: ltc now at all time high to btc, and well over its old all time high to fiat
gesell: im trying to guage if there will be a queu of sells waiting to flood through exchanges once things get back to speed
mircea_popescu: withdrawals are fine, but prolly people aren't doing it just to be safe.
dub: gesell: there will, and wait till it hits the press
dub: I think $10 might be a bit bullish
Bowjob: I'm dropping down 200 BTC
pizzaman1337: well, I can't wait to get myself some cheap coins if it drops
gesell: so its a selfish question now but ive always invested long term. and now im wondering if its time to pull and wait
Bowjob: pull put. i'll sell 200 BTC for 8k
the-bucket-shop: still 25 coins every 10 minutes as far as I know. long term should be good gesell
gesell: the-bucket-shop: the long term is great. but the bible says to be a good steward with your money so im just wondering if im being a total idiot just holding at this point
gribble: #13963 Mon Mar 11 18:45:10 2013 smickles SELL 1.0 0.7 blockchain @ 50 btc (None)
gesell: what are you selling smickles, dont get it
gesell: just selling the dat files? huh
smickles: gesell: because of the current situation, people who are on .8 and want .7 need to redownload the chain
Bowjob: heck ill sell for $13.29
smickles: a direct transfer from me to them would be a lot faster
gesell: im on 0.7 with last update 25 days ago
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 43.20000, Best ask: 43.20758, Bid-ask spread: 0.00758, Last trade: 43.20000, 24 hour volume: 81127.52521536, 24 hour low: 42.00000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.26895
assbot: You cannot stop the clouds by the building of a ship.
mpexbot: smickles: {u'7d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'4086787592', u'max': u'5325215905', u'vsa': u'954675808260', u'vsh': u'no', u'avg': u'5157005239'}, u'30d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'', u'max': u'', u'vsa': u'', u'vsh': u'', u'avg': u''}, u'1d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'', u'max': u'', u'vsa': u'', u'vsh': u'', u'avg': u''}}
dub: its just a correction
Bowjob: we need to summon satoshi
gesell: does delay translate to some meaningful guage of load on gox?
toffoo: help me satoshi nakamoto, you're our only hope
mod6: only options today were 192 CALL @ 47
dub: gesell: it translates to 'gox is incapable of handling moderate load'
gesell: hmm, any predictions on bit bets effected by this
dub: gesell: alternatively 'bitcoin is a joke'
mircea_popescu: "what the average metro payment terminal in tokyo processes"
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 42.00000, Best ask: 42.99000, Bid-ask spread: 0.99000, Last trade: 42.99000, 24 hour volume: 82087.73745767, 24 hour low: 42.00000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 46.19856
dub: No cause we're too cool for testnet and elbow grease, gotta spend 16 hours a day on -dev talking about what we think of Satoshi Dice and how many whales fatass Gmaxwell could swallow whole.
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P750T] 10 @ 0.79079695 = 7.908 BTC [-]
mod6: bunch of cock-meat sandwiches
dub: man, if those ddos kids were on to it
dub: they could REALLY fuck shit up right now
smickles: i see that as a goos ~8 btc spent
ThickAsThieves: so in a situation like this, where the usd/btc may fall on confidence, am i safer being mostly invested in assets?
davout: why are you guys even here
davout: all the cool kids are on bitcoin-dev
gesell: davout: to take advantage of fallouts?
smickles: ThickAsThieves: if a significat amount of investors view their assets in terms of usd, then mebbe
smickles: mircea_popescu: no, this was clearly the time to <@assbot> [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P750T] 10 @ 0.79079695 = 7.908 BTC [-]
davout: bitcoin just became fun again
the-bucket-shop: I think s.dice and bitvps would benefit. except that s.dice money faucet is turned off.
smickles: mircea_popescu: i bought them, if the bc,24hprc moves to the current spot, they break even
smickles: wasn't it over 1500 goxlag the other day
gesell: by all intents and purposes this is most definitely a crash
smickles: lol, coinbr down. mpex.coinbr up
davout: is mtgox even still trading ?
dub: crash comes when the media wakes up
smickles: mircea_popescu: i also have those p310t's i bought a while back
davout: dub: not necessarily if it was taken care of quickly
Bowjob: All right, I'm not panicking. Stay frosty
gesell: Bowjob: don't panik, just buy when it all settles
gesell: i shouldnt give any advice. i dont know jack. but i will hedge a little when it bottoms out anyway, for myself
smickles: best thing to do now is buy beer with bitcoin
gribble: Error: "ticer" is not a valid command.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 41.21110, Best ask: 41.40000, Bid-ask spread: 0.18890, Last trade: 41.40000, 24 hour volume: 86823.51454120, 24 hour low: 41.20000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.94411
dub: gox is trying to trade as always
Bowjob: actually, I could sell a few coins and buy back cheaper
dub: the little trading engine that could
Chaang-Noi: odd 12 ours oga this chan was dead as dead, wake up to panic, ahhh btc :)
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 40.60269, Best ask: 41.20000, Bid-ask spread: 0.59731, Last trade: 41.20000, 24 hour volume: 91789.11504056, 24 hour low: 40.01110, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.66073
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 40.37260, Best ask: 40.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.12740, Last trade: 40.50000, 24 hour volume: 91802.34794623, 24 hour low: 40.01110, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.65939
Chaang-Noi: gox cant fall to far..people cant send gox coins to sell :)
wiggzz: so what're the running odds that puts on mpex actually pay out if btc crashes very low?
pizzaman1337: Chaang-Noi: but when they open it up, there could be a selloff
mircea_popescu: yes, the only way to write them is by depositing capital
Chaang-Noi: after 6 trasactions could be a sell off yes... but people seeing it is fixed will be like, cheap coinz!!!!!!!
Chaang-Noi: im pretty sure i know how this drama will play out
wiggzz: but, on a put required capital is not as great as they can fall
Chaang-Noi: fiat in the gox will beat the 6 confirm sell off
gesell: something that really disturbs me right now is the number of way overpriced buy bids still sitting on bitcoin.de (a p2p exchange with pretty high volume)
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C490N] 10 @ 0.1721919 = 1.7219 BTC
Chaang-Noi: even if we go to $25 we will bounce right back up if this shit gets sorted quickly
gesell: mtgox price is at 31eu but you could still sell on bitcoin.de for 36
pizzaman1337: Chaang-Noi: as soon as the 0.7 chain is longer, I think. Not sure how far behind it is.
Chaang-Noi: yeah id like to know the leanth of the chains
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 40.01000, Best ask: 40.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.49000, Last trade: 40.01000, 24 hour volume: 92084.38009144, 24 hour low: 40.01000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.64045
gesell: im a bit worried selling on bitcoin.de though because if the buyer doesnt care to loose a bit of reputation they could just backout
mircea_popescu: Chaang-Noi i would guess it will be solved within a couple of hourd.
gesell: 35, really? what, end of the month or just tomorrow or something?
Chaang-Noi: okay, ill go pay insurance for my truck.. and ship off some wild honey... i need to get afk anyway:)
gesell: the thing with the bitcoin market is the reaction extends over a long period. so what you see happening now will continue in a similar manner with the EU wakes up
wiggzz: right, but in BTC the required collateral was only strike / spot
gesell: ive watched it happen. a lul for a few hours then around 10am de time (8 9 whatever UK) a lot of activity
Bowjob: ;;eightball Is this the end for bitcoin?
Bowjob: The eightball has spoken!
pizzaman1337: kakobrekla: I'm not really relevant, but most of the time I'm over there
Bowjob: Everyone quit panicking, its just a few blocks. Tomorrow, we shall see $50
Chaang-Noi: davout> Chaang-Noi: approx 12 blocks difference
kakobrekla: pizzaman1337 i was just messing with gesell
gesell: Bowjob: im not paniking. just aknowledging that the market is filled with a significant number of people investing more short term that will panik
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 39.00000, Best ask: 40.00000, Bid-ask spread: 1.00000, Last trade: 40.00000, 24 hour volume: 99762.92721491, 24 hour low: 38.01051, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.12452
smickles: wiggzz: the additions funds needed would probably come from mpbor
wiggzz: say you write a put at 21, with USDBTC at 40, required collateral is 0.525 BTC?
wiggzz: but if USDBTC drops to 1, payout is 20 USD which would be 20 BTC... way more than required collateral?
smickles: wiggzz: the mpbor assumes the risk of mpex options
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P430T] 1000 @ 0.14725493 = 147.2549 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P450T] 1000 @ 0.17572879 = 175.7288 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 40.86787592 / 51.57005239 / 53.25215905 (no shares, 9,546.76 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 37.90000, Best ask: 38.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 38.00000, 24 hour volume: 101521.68067860, 24 hour low: 37.90000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.00561
mircea_popescu: wiggzz that issue is taken care of by a little insurance premium on oputs issuance
mircea_popescu: and in exchange i settle puts in fiat in case of utter collapse
gribble: There are currently 33593.186 bitcoins demanded at or over 31.0 USD, worth 1149514.37586 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0061 seconds
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P430T] 1000 @ 0.15522008 = 155.2201 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P450T] 1000 @ 0.18486613 = 184.8661 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P390T] 1000 @ 0.1040628 = 104.0628 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P410T] 1000 @ 0.12826263 = 128.2626 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 40.86787592 / 51.57005239 / 53.25215905 (no shares, 9,546.76 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
smickles: mircea_popescu: is that unchanged on the 7day?
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 37.80000, Best ask: 38.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.20000, Last trade: 38.00000, 24 hour volume: 101597.26956421, 24 hour low: 37.80000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 45.00044
mpexbot: smickles: {u'7d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'4086787592', u'max': u'5325215905', u'vsa': u'954675808260', u'vsh': u'no', u'avg': u'5157005239'}, u'30d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'', u'max': u'', u'vsa': u'', u'vsh': u'', u'avg': u''}, u'1d': {u'cnt': u'', u'min': u'', u'max': u'', u'vsa': u'', u'vsh': u'', u'avg': u''}}
wiggzz: bitcoin.clarkmoody.com down...
dub: nicely scaling there gox
kakobrekla: so gox is turning in historcial btc chart reading site
Bowjob: how much will BTC drop by do you think
kakobrekla: serious tranders dont suffer shit like this
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C410T] 7 @ 0.12612881 = 0.8829 BTC [-]
gesell: kakobrekla: first, im sorry this is all happening. im sure it is ruining some peoples day. but why do you see it as a mtgox problem?
Chaang-Noi: pigeons see my link, i found that helpful
smickles: gesell: traditional markes shut down at times like these
kakobrekla: do you go to your FX broker to get it?
dub: whats a time like this for traditional markets?
kakobrekla: or do you go on the trading floor yourself
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C450T] 1 @ 0.17769942 BTC [-]
gesell: kakobrekla: sorry, im not following
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C450T] 9 @ 0.12120114 = 1.0908 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P390T] 1000 @ 0.10590572 = 105.9057 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P430T] 1000 @ 0.15775711 = 157.7571 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P410T] 1000 @ 0.13044382 = 130.4438 BTC [+]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 36.68160, Best ask: 38.00000, Bid-ask spread: 1.31840, Last trade: 38.00000, 24 hour volume: 105824.64907266, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.68534
Bowjob: Are we allowed to do transactions
smickles: it might be risky on the chain tho
gesell: i dont know, im not a fan of kill switches so i'd like to see bitcoin-dev's learn from this so that similar bugs in the future can be handled without shutting anything down
Bowjob: I can sell coins now at 38.50 now
Bowjob: before this shit blows out of proportions
gesell: ;;goxlag-but-make-it-intersting-please
gribble: Error: "goxlag-but-make-it-intersting-please" is not a valid command.
smickles: gesell: i think most btc exchanges are anti-killswitch
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P370T] 1000 @ 0.08420338 = 84.2034 BTC [+]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 39.01138, Best ask: 40.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.98862, Last trade: 40.00000, 24 hour volume: 107876.01377001, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.55733
gesell: question... so just curious would the initial errors that 0.7 clients were reporting (
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30587843) that sipa mentions, would those just be bug reports to bitcointalk or to sourceforge bug tracker or? just curious where alerts of such issues before its plastered everywhere would come from
gesell: did anyone see where this first started and was coming to the surface?
the-bucket-shop: blockchain.info is still scrolling satoshidice bets. I wonder which blockchain
dub: they only disabled payouts
gesell: i wonder if apart from the discussion about soft limits, we will also start to see features that give more oversight and regulation, even if more symbolic than bernanke like. such letting bitcoin-dev patch or blacklist more quickly or perhaps at will
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P750T] 23 @ 0.86122741 = 19.8082 BTC [+]
Bowjob: Aight, I guaratneed 75 BTC to be sold at.. $2799
Bowjob: lets see what happenes
dub: gesell: the attitude of the dev team has always been that bitcoin is their little science experiment and its not intended for production
Uglux: <satoshinakamoto> I'm back to save the day
gesell: dub: i dont think my statement disagress with that at all. just looking at new horizons for the experiment
dub: you're going to have a hard time selling these guys oversight
gesell: dub: i agree. if it comes though it would be slowly and with a different label
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 42.60000, Best ask: 42.65559, Bid-ask spread: 0.05559, Last trade: 42.60000, 24 hour volume: 109984.04612509, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.45198
gesell: this event is fascinating actually
vampireb: not recovered, there still a fork.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 42.60000, Best ask: 42.72770, Bid-ask spread: 0.12770, Last trade: 42.60000, 24 hour volume: 109893.67866310, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.44885
gribble: Current Blocks: 225452 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 339 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 21 hours, 12 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
gribble: Next Price Estimate: 46.86 | Next Price In About 3 days, 1 hour, 50 minutes, and 34 seconds
gribble: One would be wise to think so.
Bowjob: erm, i shoulda asked a yes or no q
gesell: blacklistblock = regulation. though peer agreed. which is fascinating because we do not have such language in traditional finance
gesell: or we do but a bit more abstracted and not so clear as it is here
kakobrekla: pres B for left side and S for right side
Bowjob: Maybe Satoshi is looking from afar
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 44.00000, Best ask: 44.03000, Bid-ask spread: 0.03000, Last trade: 44.00000, 24 hour volume: 111563.57296537, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.44028
gesell: just for the record the drop started at 2:41am GMT+1 (had some logs)
davos: Bowjob: I'd rather put money on satoshi being 2 or 3 people over in -dev
Bowjob: ;;eightball Is Satoshi Nakamoto 1 person?
gribble: What are you asking me for?
gesell: "(04:04:59) gmaxwell: jeffgarzik is /msging me telling me that jgarzik is an imposter." --- heh, and people still have the heart to troll. oh internets
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.00000039 / 0.00000053 / 0.00000053 (50897 shares, 0.00 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
smickles: mircea_popescu: what's up with that?
mircea_popescu: just... the weight of the calls sold is so much heavier than the weight of the puts bought just now
Bowjob: so its still bullish btc?
smickles: mircea_popescu: isn't it off by about 8 digits?
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 39.89104856 / 0.00000053 / 53.27237035 (50897 shares, 0.00 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 39.89104856 / 53.82025731 / 53.27237035 (50897 shares, 0.00 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: your blog fails to load
BitHub: how many hours till next asicminer divy?
topace_: jesus whats going on with the blockchain??
kakobrekla: bitcoin split, price crashed all while you were takign a piss
BitHub: safe to recieve payments again?
smickles: you ought to wait until the .7 (short) chain grows longer than the main chain
smickles: and some miners are still adding to the main chain
ThickAsThieves: Schrödinger's BitBet - This bet will have more total BTC bet on Yes than on No before it closes.
smickles: and there is still confusion among the devs
BitHub: so if someone sends me coins now they're gone for good?
ThickAsThieves: the bet has a fault, or a bonus depending on how you look at it
kakobrekla: imho they will be respendable with the longer chain not containing that tx
kakobrekla: which mean a few bitbets will have to be invalidated
kakobrekla: >The risk is small because this is not a network split-- transactions are being sent to both sides of the chain split, and it is unlikely (but possible) that somebody could get two versions of the same transaction into the two sides of the chain.
smickles: < BitHub> so if someone sends me coins now they're gone for good? << no, it's up to which chain it's included in
kakobrekla: totoally oposite of bitcoin in general.
mircea_popescu: and it is unlikely (but possible) <><< yeah. they know.
mircea_popescu: what is the barrier to entry to this, make two txs,b roadcast it to two diff nodes.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.01000, Best ask: 45.89900, Bid-ask spread: 0.88900, Last trade: 45.00000, 24 hour volume: 119265.24377758, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.50395
topace_: how can you tell if your bitcoin daemon is on the right chain?
smickles: topace_: as a regualr user, i dunno. but it'll switch over automatically when the .7 chain is longer
mircea_popescu: you just emit txs. the miners add them on their mempools
smickles: right now, you can 'bitcoind getinfo' and look at the height. current 'wrong' chain is at 225453, .7 is at 225442
smickles: kakobrekla: but the differenc will be more and more difficult to tell soon
mircea_popescu: good luck getting the miners to accept a 14 block loss
smickles: mircea_popescu: some arn't, the largest pools are
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it prolly destroyes those unfortunate fucks that paid out on the 0 diff
smickles: mircea_popescu: it mined a block sized larger than 250k
mircea_popescu: the wrong chain is lionger yet you're telling me the miners are moving.
smickles: the wrong one mined a block which .7 clients couldn't see
dub: good day for not being the guild pool op
smickles: mircea_popescu: look at blockchain.info, the major pools are mining an orphaned chain
kakobrekla: well bitbet seems to be on the right one
smickles: the orphaned chain is the 'right' one
mircea_popescu: let me guess... so the longer chain is the wrong one. because that's why it's longer
smickles: yeah, gotta love all those peeps encouraging the pool ops to mine blocks larger than 250k b/c of SD
smickles: they mined on the 'wrong' one for some time b/f peeps realized there was a problem
smickles: now the 'right' one is trying to catch up
Bowjob: i thoguht its solved already
mircea_popescu: i love the various people on bitcointalk trying to move the conversation
smickles: Bowjob: they have a band=aid fix, revert to the old chain
mircea_popescu: anything and everything shall be discussed, but god forbid someone gets bitchslapped
Bowjob: and i hope everyone is actually mining on the 0.72 chain
gribble: Current Blocks: 225453 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 338 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 21 hours, 4 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
smickles: if i had enough coins to justify it, i might run one of each
smickles: ya know, there's a chance this band-aid fix won't work, the .8 chain looks like it might be going faster than the .7
error4733: BFL_Josh : 11 March 2013 Update : Say what you want about BFL, but we make ASICs look good.
Bowjob: They make Avalon look good
Bowjob: heck, Avalons come with gloves
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P730T] 15 @ 0.81355 = 12.2033 BTC [-]
Bowjob: watching this is entertaining as fuck
PeterL: The 'right' chain is definately catching up to the 'wrong' one
PeterL: I think in the past hour the 'right' chain has gone up 5 blocks, the 'wrong' one has gone up 2
smickles: ah, i think i screwed up my look at it then
smickles: they're still 9 blocks from forcing the switch
PeterL: how will this outage affect satoshiDice share price?
Bowjob: bt we're winnign at least
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00530001 / 0.00551785 / 0.00569996 (11580 shares, 63.90 BTC), 7D: 0.00300001 / 0.0051045 / 0.006 (200407 shares, 1,022.98 BTC), 30D: 0.00300001 / 0.00614247 / 0.0069 (2518785 shares, 15,471.58 BTC)
smickles: PeterL: it was the anti-SD'ers who forced this issue
smickles: yeah, but not now. it could've undergone more testing
mircea_popescu: it just takes some firm adherence to coding principle.
smickles: so you think there should be no limit?
mircea_popescu: they need to go through the whole code and take out all the bs of the sort.
mircea_popescu: the (undocumented) limit to client tx size for instance, is not.
Bowjob: Satoshi envisioned 100 GB per day
gesell: jesus multiplied 7 fishes
Bowjob: he had fishes under the table
smickles: btcguild gunning for 5 in a row now
smickles: ya know, it's quite possible that there is only one electron in the whole universe
jborkl_: better not tell the protons
smickles: the protons can't tell one electron from the other anyway
mod6: depends on the scale. at the plank scale everything is a different
mod6: so there is a 1mb limit now?
dub: no theres a 250k limit
smickles: mod6: i thought all electrons were indistinguishable as far as our best tech can tell
smickles: and the wiki says that electrons can't be distinguished even in principle
mod6: if its on the internet it must be true
smickles: it's stuff i recall from studying science tho
dub: <smickles> PeterL: it was the anti-SD'ers who forced this issue
mod6: im not trying to troll, i don't know srsly.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 44.64974, Best ask: 44.87125, Bid-ask spread: 0.22151, Last trade: 44.88000, 24 hour volume: 126419.84432523, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.49347
smickles: dub: this would not have happened now if people were not encouraging pool ops to raise the soft limit on block size because of 'satoshiDice spam'
dub: uh they had to raise it
dub: because of the dice spam
smickles: or after it got caught in testing
dub: the soft limit was hit
smickles: mircea_popescu: they do do a little on the testnet, it's just that the queue of stuff to test is long, and noone want's to help out
gribble: Time since last block: 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds
jurov: uff, coinbr back online
dub: smickles: yes it was raised to accomodate dice
smickles: mircea_popescu: 23 minutes on the .7 chain
smickles: dub: we weren't hitting the softcap that offten
dub: smickles: yes we were, there was 4000 unconfirmed txn when the call went out to up the limit
dub: smickles: it became a problem when dice increased their fee
dub: pushing everyone else out of the way
smickles: hmm, i recall there being thousands of unconfirmed txns for months and months
dub: smickles: yeah dice txns
dub: which everyone was used to living with, when it suddenly turned into mom and pop's txns taking days to confirm somethign had tobe done
dub: yes but they didn't know that
mircea_popescu: not like iot says right there, "put a little tx fee, it helps the network" etc
dub: so sayign teh anti-dice crew are responsible is wrong
smickles: dub: i can see that we disagree, but i don't think the limit should be raised until the necessary txfee is unreasonably high
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 39.76255342 / 44.74483325 / 53.27237035 (65320 shares, 22,376.48 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
smickles: dub: and i don't think i said they were responsible, i said they forced the issue
dub: anti-dice would be work to exclude their tsn not increas the limit
smickles: some were saying that, some were saying raise the limit
benkay: what's the mtgox lag command?
gribble: Error: "lag" is not a valid command.
benkay: what was the delay between blockchain fork and broadcast?
mpexbot: smickles: 0.0727469921112 seconds
dub: was there an alert sent to 0.8? I don't see it in .7
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: 0.103024959564 seconds
smickles: benkay: it was less than 6 block according to one claim by someone in -dev
benkay: they have a fancy website
benkay: oh wait, you said "humiliating"
benkay: i hope morgan and co drop the ball hard
benkay: be a shame to see the us consolidate under their iron grip
topace_: bitcoind listtransactions bitches abotu safe mode, is there a way to tell it to just show me the transactions anyways?
ThickAsThieves: i cant see wall st investing in something that is controlled by devs in IRC
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: 0.104865074158 seconds
pigeons: topace_: bitcoind -disablesafemode
gribble: Error: "wallstreet" is not a valid command.
Ukto: topace: at least you didnt freeze trading :D
topace_: yea, no need to do that :p
Ukto: i found that funny >,>
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P370T] 1000 @ 0.08731834 = 87.3183 BTC [+]
Ukto: i suppose its an okay response to kneejerk reaction
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P390T] 1000 @ 0.10970785 = 109.7079 BTC [+]
smickles: geez, we're still 9 blocks from a re-org
Ukto: having tie-ins with ozco's systems, and others, my system keeps a close eye on all transactions lol
Ukto: only those pools who were properly setup/unefected continue
smickles: mircea_popescu: we had a double top and a crisis. we're going to 2
Ukto: who didnt set their block size to 1bazillion
benkay: mircea_popescu: what are you calculating there?
topace_: 225445 still the top of the 0.7 ? my 0.8 client still shows 225453
benkay: what's the 1.109? interest rate?
benkay: shit this is embarrassing.
topace_: smickles:so the 0.8 clients wont switch until the height is more?
topace_: cool im going to bed then, lol
smickles: yeah, still 8 blocks different
gribble: Time since last block: 1 hour, 31 minutes, and 55 seconds
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P550T] 1000 @ 0.38403908 = 384.0391 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P530T] 1000 @ 0.34210801 = 342.108 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P510T] 1000 @ 0.30194268 = 301.9427 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P490T] 1000 @ 0.26374232 = 263.7423 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P470T] 1000 @ 0.22771516 = 227.7152 BTC [+]
smickles: mircea_popescu: i only have a self taught understanding of technicals and i see it, so people who trade on technicals probably see it too and are taking action
assbot: It says some pelt-wearin' trapper, some stinkin' bean-suckin' possum skinner, he's gonna collect that reward money.
mpexbot: pizzaman1337: 0.0712060928345 seconds
the-bucket-shop: peter - if satoshi dice can land some press out of this, then probably there will be some more betting next few weeks.
mod6: omg she is just gloating over here lol, she's been calling 'em mario coins since day one.
mod6: she's like, "oh gonna go play more dungons and dragons 'eh...."
mod6: and now shes gloating
the-bucket-shop: mp s.dice grows too large for bitcoin sounds way better than "bitcoin is forked" btc people who talk to the press have no option but to blame satoshidice very loudly.
maximian: good thing this happened now and not when the market cap is $5B
mircea_popescu: maximian if the idiots hadn't put in the 250k limit it would have jhappened and been resolved in 2011
mircea_popescu: when you know... 1 single block would have caused it, it'd have been immediately noticed but no forking
the-bucket-shop: I'm sure this stuff will happen at $5B too. that's like the size of the New York School district
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.5949999 BTC [+]
Chaang-Noi: mp the idots was satoshi, he just assumed we would change it later
mircea_popescu: the-bucket-shop basically it will happen indefinitely for as long as we have a devteam that mostly works at trying to play government.
mod6: he's not an idiot. he was very smart, if these new idiots can't hack their way out of a wet paper sack, thats not really his fault.
Chaang-Noi: in the frist few months someone could ahve attacked it with spam and killed it, who is to say that would not have happened?
Chaang-Noi: i agree it should ahve been changed by now
Chaang-Noi: but having it in the first place was a good idea
mircea_popescu: if it gets to the point where i am raising objections and they make sense
Chaang-Noi: honestly this issue is one of the reasons i went so hard core into ltc
Chaang-Noi: faster blocks can fit more transactions
Chaang-Noi: also i have more faith in the ltc pools to change this cuz it is a small network now
Chaang-Noi: we can fix it with out too much issue, and i ahve been trying to get peole to move
pigeons: well the bdb index lock bug isnt only triggered by pure # of transactions
Chaang-Noi: pigeons it is size of the blocks right?
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.01200, Best ask: 45.35277, Bid-ask spread: 0.34077, Last trade: 45.42658, 24 hour volume: 129864.74982214, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.47226
pigeons: to say that litecoin is in anyway better on this issue is ridiculous
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P550T] 275 @ 0.38399185 = 105.5978 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P530T] 275 @ 0.34205951 = 94.0664 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P510T] 275 @ 0.30189328 = 83.0207 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P490T] 275 @ 0.26369245 = 72.5154 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P470T] 275 @ 0.22766534 = 62.608 BTC [-]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.01200, Best ask: 45.42580, Bid-ask spread: 0.41380, Last trade: 45.42600, 24 hour volume: 129868.46652021, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.47196
benkay: how are the chain size and this recent fork related?
pigeons: benkay: not chain size, block size
Chaang-Noi: pigeons you have not explained what you think the issue is yet you say what i said is silly... it is hard to attack a point you wont state
benkay: what's this referring to: mircea_popescu: maximian if the idiots hadn't put in the 250k limit it would have jhappened and been resolved in 2011
mircea_popescu: prevented the underlying problem of the db from being discovered
mircea_popescu: until that moment when a perfect storm composed out of a db upgrade and the limit removal
benkay: oh i see, chain size and this fork i are idiots
mircea_popescu: this could have easily been avoided by simply not relying on magic numbers.
mircea_popescu: and it will ever be the case that whenever code contains a number based on an assumption
benkay: developers hate unconstrained systems
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C410T] 3 @ 0.15129407 = 0.4539 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: it can be constrained to 2tb for start
topace_: Bowjob: cavirtex is only 3% to start with, its volume based... pretty easy to get down tto 1%
mpexbot: smickles: 0.10756111145 seconds
Bowjob: dont i get charged per trade?
Bowjob: so I have to keep trading until I bring it down to 1%
pigeons: yeah it was .5% for its first couple years but couldnt make any money + scammers
pigeons: that interac email transfer thing was a mistake
Bowjob: mhm yah thevolume isnt that high on virtex
mircea_popescu: Chaang-Noi the something bawwwfull crowd... btc goes 15 to 45, they're like whelp
mircea_popescu: bitcoin goes 45 to 40 for 15 minutes... omg MUST MAKE ALL THE POSTS
mircea_popescu: tomorrow it'll be like... what, nothing happened. so what if it's 50. doesn't prove anything
Chaang-Noi: mp yeah 15 to 45, then a short dip to 38 and they are like, told you its over, lulz
Bowjob: whos mining on badchain
gribble: Time since last block: 9 minutes and 53 seconds
gribble: Time since last block: 25 minutes and 29 seconds
mircea_popescu: so what's best case scenario here, something like 16 blocks chain orphaned ?
mod6: oh looks like btcguild got another
gribble: Time since last block: 27 minutes and 9 seconds
gribble: Current Blocks: 225454 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 337 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 34 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4838985.15316 | Estimated Percent Change: 10.78577
Chaang-Noi: back to 27, oh lulz btc. how you troll us
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 46.46002, Best ask: 46.75436, Bid-ask spread: 0.29434, Last trade: 46.93566, 24 hour volume: 134874.62479342, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.53366
Bowjob: im not sure how to interpret the data
Bowjob: so.. are we all good then?
Bowjob: who is mining on 0.8 then?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin devs to stop all development of new versions, work on bitcoin specification exclusively, then release one cleanned up bitcoin version.
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: 0.110903978348 seconds
Bowjob: BFL should atone for their sins and mine with the ASICs if they have them and help save the network
ThickAsThieves: overall this still lowers difficulty next round a little right?
maximian: Bowjob the network is being saved right now…. it's just taking some time because hashing power is split between two chains.
ThickAsThieves: and a portion of the hashing is still going to dead blocks
Bowjob: yeah but who is mining on 0.8 still?
ThickAsThieves: so this is good for asicminer(s), they get an extra day of lower diff, maybe more
BitHub: whens the nev div due?
gribble: Current Blocks: 225454 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 337 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 34 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4838985.15316 | Estimated Percent Change: 10.78577
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves they are the largest losers mining on dead chain
BingoBongo: Interesting how p2pool was supposed to "prevent network centralization" seems to be doing the job...
Bowjob: so basically if i get this right, those mining on 0.8 are wasting their time
Bowjob: by "main" you mean 0.7
BitHub: any press conference release statements from the devs yet?
ThickAsThieves: essentially btcguild and the other big ones are doing a 51% attack
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves and it's not trivial to get the fuck off .8
kakobrekla: eleuretheria or whatever wants his coins back
Bowjob: next release should be 0.9
ThickAsThieves: too bad for him, but maybe now he'll have better protocol for changing his software
Bowjob: gah btc is very complicated lol
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 39.70080218 / 44.63179932 / 53.27201335 (66598 shares, 22,713.19 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu he wants to do these meta bets
mircea_popescu: well whatever he wants, if you don't see it in a day it's prolly been rejected
rodeo: Once the ophaned chain take over again BTCguild will get > 10 blocks I wounder how they will credit it
mircea_popescu: ironic that the end result of the Luke-Jr & co group of idiots starting their little jihad on s.dice
mircea_popescu: will be the extinction of their c++ only "refernece" implementation and in general the end of their centralist chokehold on bitcoin
mircea_popescu: i guess the lesson here is that programmers have no business arguing with financiers.
gribble: Time since last block: 49 minutes and 1 second
Chaang-Noi: last 3 blocks were prphaned, ??? not good?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 100 @ 0.00181 = 0.181 BTC [+]
maximian: just two more blocks and it'll be the main chain
Bowjob: ah.. btc-e. I lose my mind on that trollbox
kakobrekla: at least we had some good drama ya know
Bowjob: so thats it? crisis averted?
maximian: now come the personal attacks, panic selling, etc
rodeo: I thought the ending was a bit anti climatic
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.05186, Best ask: 45.05187, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 45.05187, 24 hour volume: 136276.60628425, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.54592
maximian: big forks have happened before, not really a big deal
BingoBongo: It's not the ending. It is the opening chapter in the Latest DLC. BitCoin: Mission Standardization
Bowjob: I printed an order page for topace, but then hes like nope. dont transact
Bowjob: so my free option didnt work out
maximian: the tech blogs will have a field day with this. orgasming over the opportunity to spread some FUD
maximian: I think we can expect the exchange rate to be depressed for a while.
Ukto: well, as I stated before.. weex wallet is the perfect example of correctnes
Ukto: wonder what other sites are like :P
gribble: Time since last block: 1 minute and 50 seconds
ThickAsThieves: so will there be a mass selloff afte rpeople get their btc to gox?
maximian: yeah, lots of nervous nellies out there
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 43.99646, Best ask: 44.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.00354, Last trade: 44.00000, 24 hour volume: 137786.72229724, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.54643
maximian: people who don't understand the system… pure speculators
Bowjob: I'm watching from coinlab
pigeons: you're at coinlab? or coinlab has an actual product out?
pigeons: cant be fancier than clarkmoody?
Bowjob: I'd let the bears have a go at it for now
BingoBongo: I imagine there's a large low information"Investor" population that through inertia or ignorance recognizes what a small hiccup this should have been... When they start looking for people to inform them though....
pigeons: just waiting for you to reboot
Bowjob: wheres that gif of this anime chick drinking coffee
BingoBongo: I'm making a trip to the Pawn Shop tomorrow and loading up on fiat for the opportunity that should arise these next few weeks. The DFI I use is indicating a "correction" to $15-$35 within 2 or 3 weeks, confidence interval of 66.7%
pigeons: partly cloudy, chance of rain
pigeons: omg! bitcoin didnt die! buy!
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 44.16000, Best ask: 44.43000, Bid-ask spread: 0.27000, Last trade: 44.54000, 24 hour volume: 137292.69111752, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.50843
BingoBongo: Lulz Jeff G, How many support threads on that forum have ended in essentially: export your private keys and import into X software other than what you have been using
Bowjob: If felt that we would have a tremendous rally today this bug didnt happen
Bowjob: oh well. i'll take what i can
BingoBongo: A software neutral specification has been needed for too long
BingoBongo: I give it probably 3 years for a full move from code control to stardardized and documented.
BingoBongo: There's the long fight over what the spec is, and then theres the awkward grace period until the spec forces people to leave the old code controlled version (unless crisis compells it earlier)
midnightmagic: Probably not going to happen. People like mystical chains-of-heredity.
midnightmagic: It's in their nature--right beside the part that thinks god talks directly to them.
BingoBongo: Some things are more powerful than heredity
midnightmagic: The magic Satoshi? You think the huge number of sociopaths running bitcoin are interested in an outside non-mystic taking the reins?
midnightmagic: people who use bitcoin are the people I'm talking about.
midnightmagic: they are who create the economy which bitcoin encompasses.
mircea_popescu: WHY ARENT the bitcoin police doing anything about these DDOS attacks?
midnightmagic: correct, they don't. the thing is a lot of them know that, so what do they do? social proof. and they pick a guy (like satoshi) and decide he is the nearest thing to god.
midnightmagic: You know for someone who complains about it so much I'm surprised you're taking such an interest in leading a takeover.. :-)
Ukto: btw, bitfunder is 100% online. withdraws/ deposits
Ukto: you guys do okay? :)
BingoBongo: mircea_popescu Not at all. Maybe tie the definitive switch to standards only to the next halving? God is gone so let's send things to committee.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic im not leading anything, but i'm not standing for nonsensical crap either.
midnightmagic: You're trying to suggest you could be the lead of a Real bitcoin replacement. :)
mircea_popescu: not really. but i am saying that the current stuff has to go.
mircea_popescu: i said the moment devs try to act like priests and leverage the obscurity of their bad code into political theosophy... they're screwed.
mircea_popescu: i guess they don't read english any better than they read their own code.
midnightmagic: Actually, the reference implementation was never meant to be the end-all canonical version. Satoshi always hoped someone would write a properly-funded, properly engineered client and it would become the canonical client.
midnightmagic: I see no examples of political theosophy. You clearly have something in mind: out with it. :)
mircea_popescu: if you recall, this all started with people knowing which transactions are good.
midnightmagic: I don't see how a rationale (which Satoshi himself started, btw, by requesting that Wikileaks not use bitcoin yet,) is the snowball accretion of full-blown theosophy.
BingoBongo: And mircea_popescu many will probably try to sweep it under the rug as LevelDB is broken, because it isn't BerkelyDB. You're on the right track, but I think this was probably the wrong error...
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic wrong step on satoshi's part. let it be broken, rebuild. why protect it ?
midnightmagic: Currently, the best choice is sipa's blacklist patch, as it allows us to remain on the faster 0.8 while still mining.
mircea_popescu: if it's good it will prevail. if it sucks it will just crack and something else will come out of it
BingoBongo: mircea_popescu the difference is probably how much they will try to reiforce their canon against sense...
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: blockchain-destroying events tend to set back adoption progress amongst people who are afraid of what everyone else will think.
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: the bootstrapping itself is still going on.
BingoBongo: "Good" bitcoin will probably have to overtake old by 51% As worse overtook bad tonight
mircea_popescu: look, like it or not, for this reason or for some other reason, bitcoin is at a point where you can't reasonably pour more moneuy into it
midnightmagic: BingoBongo: it will overtake depending on its technical and UX merits.
mircea_popescu: BingoBongo have you read the girl's explanation of why multiforks resolve and aren't a problem economically ?
BingoBongo: mircea_popescu I might have, I'll recheck her post history.
midnightmagic: BingoBongo: Think about it this way. uTorrent killed everything else on Windows.
mircea_popescu: in short : suppose chain forks into 3 different chains today, a b and c
mircea_popescu: if you had 10 bitcoins today prefork, you will have 10 a 10b and 10 c bitcoins after the fork.
mircea_popescu: if you sell b and buy a the price of all will go up and the price of b down.
mircea_popescu: eventually the fork resolves economically simply because mining costs money.
mircea_popescu: end of story. money itself is a centralising factor, and as such the slightest flicker amplifies
BingoBongo: Ah, this is kind of what I was thinking. I must have read without expressing the sentiment. I believe I've read similar on Trilema as well.
mircea_popescu: to be perfectly candid, many people involved in bitcoin are good honest and well meaning individuals, who know about things. usually those things are coding.
midnightmagic: crosschatter and high-bandwidth reorg battles would hurt individual consensus. presume the forks are all equal hashrate to begin with: due to the nature of POW, it would be far, far worse in terms of strength against attack.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic no. because attacker wouldn't know which to attack.
BingoBongo: midnightmagic Win32 killed everything on Windows... Crosschatter happened before, some altcoin late last year did it (no halving fork) and had to be euthanized.
midnightmagic: you must presume technical acumen on the part of the attacker.
mircea_popescu: but selecting the coin to attack is not a technical problem.
mircea_popescu: and you must never presume political acumen on the part of anyone.
midnightmagic: also economical savvy (as all attackers I have seen have been extremely insightful economically)
mircea_popescu: if the devs were a little looser in the ass, would the sort of econ savvy attackers stay that side or join this side ?
midnightmagic: not godlike power, but intellectually perfect decisions, plus funded by $x dollars.
mircea_popescu: looser in the ass ? it means being used with being fucked in that orrifice.
midnightmagic: Yeah but what has that to do with anything? Is this your way of saying you're done arguing?
mircea_popescu: suppose buttcoin has some devs that think all usecases are equally valid, and dorkcoin has some devs who believe using the coin for gambling is spam.
mircea_popescu: suppose there is one attacker such as you've modeled him.
Anduck: selling ASICMINER @ 0.76
pigeons: by the way people dont think using bitcoin for gambling is spam, they think using bitcoin transactions to signal a lost bet is spam
midnightmagic: I'd preferentially attack the ones who appeared to be more philosophically aligned with the notion of attack.
mircea_popescu: same thing pigeons. as long as you're making that call your ass is too tight.
midnightmagic: Also, if the money is on the side of the all-use-cases-are-valid (i.e. gambling and drugs, hypothetically) then obviously the money is where the attacker goes.
pigeons: ok maybe we should just encode files and upload them to the blockchain ala namecoin too
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic not so. you will be surprised to find attackers routinely forego hitting higher payoff cooler targets
mircea_popescu: pigeons if we shouldn't, there should not be call for doing it.
midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: Well, not in my personal experience. But perhaps that's out-of-date these days.
midnightmagic: The gambling servers at least are very popular targets. Extorting them is almost a Russian pastime.
mircea_popescu: that;s brancing the discussion off the germane path tho
pigeons: alpaca socks can only pay so much ransom
midnightmagic: Even btcexpress preferred to leave his attacks on the altcoins.
mircea_popescu: sure, irrelevant ventures aren't part of the discussion, if bitcoin stays alpacca we're wasting our time with these concerns/
midnightmagic: .. but you defined the two choices earlier. I'm not agreeing that the choices match reality. I'm just hanging out in your hypothetical land because you invited me.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic that's fine, but you pervert the choices when you add riders such as "one is really vanishingly small"
midnightmagic: Well if that's not what you meant, perhaps you should define things more narrowly. :)
mircea_popescu: just leave it stand as it is. the theoretical response to a 51% attack is that the attacker would make more by mining.
mircea_popescu: the same applies ideologically too. the network won't get attacked for as long as it manages to not stupidly offend.
mircea_popescu: keeping money ideologically neutral, implementing the old pecunia non olet
mircea_popescu: is the main strategic purpose of having a devteam in the first place.
midnightmagic: I think gpumax is the counterexample to that assertion (that they'd make more by mining)
mircea_popescu: i don't think so. gpumax dissapeared with pirate, as the sane people were saying back in february 2012.
midnightmagic: nah it's not. It's an example of hashrate for sale, and successfully for sale for that matter.
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 5 @ 0.2 = 1 BTC [+]
midnightmagic: More likely it was a side-business for coin laundry, but none of the miners could ever (far as I know) figure out where the coins were coming *from*.
assbot: [BTCTC] [SYNERGY] 1 @ 0.076 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 4 @ 0.00524 = 0.021 BTC [+]
Ukto: looks like trading on btct is back
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 3 @ 0.18 = 0.54 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.2 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.BBET-PT] 25 @ 0.00193 = 0.0483 BTC [+]
Bowjob: Massive sell off occuring
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 42.50000, Best ask: 43.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.50000, Last trade: 43.00000, 24 hour volume: 143829.74796654, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.38319
Bowjob: well, i watched it from 45, drop to 42.5 .. i see each cent dropping
Ukto: Native LTC deposit/withdraw supported. "And as always. Has good day."
kakobrekla: unaffection comes to bitbet so naturally i wont be posting any signes.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 41.51000, Best ask: 41.99900, Bid-ask spread: 0.48900, Last trade: 41.99900, 24 hour volume: 146092.87031245, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 44.35230
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: 0.147304058075 seconds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5 @ 0.00073163 = 0.0037 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5539 @ 0.00073162 = 4.0524 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 456 @ 0.00072543 = 0.3308 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: In Australia, IPv6 adoption is almost non-existent, reports Josh Taylor.
mircea_popescu: "It's about as bad as everywhere else on the planet, I guess, with the single exception of Romania," Asia Pacific Network Information Centre's chief scientist, Geoff Huston, said in an interview with ZDNet Australia.
Anduck: selling ASICMINER @ 0.76, pm me if interested (at btct.co ASICMINER-PT asks are at 0.7699)
Namworld: I offer 0.03% daily on funds here.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 43.41654, Best ask: 43.41666, Bid-ask spread: 0.00012, Last trade: 43.50000, 24 hour volume: 166958.61630911, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 43.77197
jborkl_: It is holding up well considering what a collosal fuck up this was
Namworld: It wasn't that colossal... just a little forking
Namworld: The miners voted which would be used going forward
smickles: yeah, and it's not likely that many lost btc due to incidental double spends
Troic_: it could have been colossal, if the pool ops weren't so cooperative
jborkl_: That they encouraged people to change the block size and not knowing it was going to break BDB was a big fuck up
MJR_: Namworld: what is your bonds URL again?
smickles: Troic_: beauty of the system, they have a financial incentive to cooperate
smickles: jborkl_: I do wish they had tested .8 better. tis could've been caught
mircea_popescu: jborkl_ the idea is strong, the implementation horrible
Namworld: they can still mass object to changes and refuse... but the longest chain will be the one with most miners.
mircea_popescu: in a sense this backhandedly proves how strong the idea is
Namworld: The issue is not in .8 at all...
smickles: gavin had admitted to testing 500k blocks
Namworld: No amount of testing would have found the issue. .7 would have needed to be tested.
mircea_popescu: any statement that claims "no amout of testing" is a lie by its nature
smickles: Namworld: depends how you look at it no? the iss presented with the interaction of .8 and .7
smickles: something gavin was testing, just not toroughly enough
Namworld: The issue was in .7, if they tested .8 forever, they'd never have found the issue if they didn't use .7 in the testing.
mircea_popescu: obviously not the amount of testing they were willing to do in between chat session and harassinfg the userbase found it
jborkl_: I ran .7 and .8 versions, If I had run testnet and made a 1mb block I would have most likely broken .7
smickles: Namworld: gavin said he would've caught it if he had tested a larger block on the testnet
mircea_popescu: smickles gotta give props to gavin, he's one of the few that are actually contrite enough.
smickles: he only tested 500k blocks, and it happened on a 900k block
Namworld: I'm not saying it couldn't have been found, I'm just refuting that doing more testing on .8 would have given any result.
mircea_popescu: unauthoritatively my it says berkley seems to choke in this case over about 10k records
jborkl_: really, only test a part of the code against itself?
Namworld: I know... but people everywhere say that .8 should have been tested more so the issue would have been found.
mircea_popescu: nobody is saying "shouldhave been tested more by itself in a vacuum"
jborkl_: I just solo mined on .72 again last night until it was all figured out- I knew I kept .72 around and running for a reason
smickles: Namworld: i believe they do test for interaction with older versions
mircea_popescu: jborkl_ i've always been slow to upgrade, specifically for lack of faith.
MJR_: Namworld: I think what they mean is that part of testing a new release is testing it's interactions with other versions for backward compatiblity
Namworld: Don't you get it? I'm trying to refute people who think the issue is with .8 and that .8 alone should have been tested more...
jborkl_: Yeah, me too- I don't like being the first to change- bit me too many times
Namworld: Not that more proper testing would not have found the issue (proper with many versions). That more testing of .8 alone would have not changed anything.
Namworld: This is the only thing I'm trying to say.
smickles: personall, i include previous version interaction in the testing of one version
smickles: so it's a silly argument :P differences in definitions
mircea_popescu: the issue is with berkley db, which was on the way out
Namworld: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M FUCKING CLAIMING THAT THE ISSUE AIN'T ON .8!
jborkl_: people were all up in arms about having 80 to 1000 unconfirmed transactions waiting. with NO testing, people made larger blocks - that broke BDB
Namworld: I'm talking about people making such claims... not about me making the same claims =/
jborkl_: It could have been handled and implemented properly
mircea_popescu: <Namworld> No amount of testing would have found the issue.
Namworld: @smickles: some people even claimed they sticked to an old version specially because of potential such issues with new versions when .8 wasn't the source of the problem. If they had switched it would have been an non-issue. We've reverted to accomodate the bug in .7 and not to leave people behind.
jborkl_: .8 should be used, but we are holding back so poor people with shitty connections and shitty hardware can still be here
Namworld: mircea: I was referring to testing of .8 alone. I'm made an omission in it. I've been trying to correct myself for like the last few minutes =/
MJR_: lol, you know people can run either version and change the size of blocks they can accept or mine
imsaguy: the problems is that other people accepted it
Namworld: I hate it when I forget something in a sentence and I'm getting argued against for 10 minutes when I have the same point of view as the one arguing against me.
imsaguy: so even if you didn't allow it, someone else did
imsaguy: and then your client chokes
imsaguy: and you get stuck and don't get any new blocks
imsaguy: mircea_popescu: Namworld is usually arguing with himself.
Namworld: That's new. I don't recall that.
Namworld: No. Maybe every month or the other.
jborkl_: They have identified it as .BDB has a limit and can be broken. .8 does not have a limit and seems fine. Lets move back to the broken
mircea_popescu: i enjoy arguing with him mostly because he seems to go about things in a totally different way than anyone else
mircea_popescu: which is a great way to become a laughingstock, sure, but also a great way to find obscure bugs.
Namworld: Actually I find you go about things in a different way than anyone else...
MJR_: can't you change your code in .7 to accept larger blocks?
imsaguy: .7 can already accept larger blocks
imsaguy: bdb can't handle the locking
Namworld: Almost all misunderstandings on Bitcoin IRC are with you. I usually go about quite well with almost everyone else.
mircea_popescu: Namworld almost everyone else doesn't have much to say.
imsaguy: I'm glad I'm not almost everyone else
jborkl_: The problem glaring from this, now a obvious major problem is here and can be exploited again.
MJR_: has anyone ever said "bitcoin-assets is great but I just wish it had as much drama as bitcointalk.com"
Namworld: I think you are very literal on what sentences mean and interpret as little as possible. You avoid making too many inferences during a conversation so even small omissions can result in misunderstandings.
mircea_popescu: Namworld certainly. this way misunderstandings are found early.
gribble: usagi was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 days, 23 hours, 17 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <usagi> do it
imsaguy: does he still owe people coins?
Namworld: If it was a written text, I might make less omissions. When chatting tho, I type fast and usually omit things.
mircea_popescu: actually... what if usagi and eskimo bob joined forces
imsaguy: sounds like a methlab waiting to happen
jborkl_: put both of their ideas on how to make money together? 1+1=still is 0
Namworld: Only bob I know around these parts.
mircea_popescu: this seems to be the contemporary brain disease, people reading stuff they don't understand here and there, mashing it into a sort of compound
Namworld: I think being heavily dependant on miners is actually what Satoshi wanted... miners vote with their hashing power... That's exactly how the system is supposed to work.
jborkl_: I like Death and Taxes response
Namworld: and devs can consult with mining pool when changing limits and send a warning so everyone upgrades directly to the client, should they want to make a change to allow scaling.
ThickAsThieves: they will still need to hard fork us again at some point, no?
ThickAsThieves: so does that not give malicious people a specific time in the future to plan for?
Namworld: But with proper warning and support from the community for the change, only the few not switching are left behind.
mircea_popescu: just the puppy eyed idiots don't quite get what happened so raw raw we love devteam
Namworld: what kind of malicious stuff might there be?
mircea_popescu: that's not how this works, "o, what bad stuff could happen?"
jborkl_: Well, first of all they need to plan the change sooner than later
Namworld: No, I mean malicious stuff from knowing ahead of time about a fork.
Namworld: Other than double-spend attacks
Namworld: But really, merchants/miners can plan ahead if they know. It's better if it's known in advance than not.
mircea_popescu: knowing in advance there will have to be a hard fork is a weakness of the system.
benkay: centralize us on a single buggy broken blatform
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, i wonder what OTHER exploits are there for berkley
mircea_popescu: that were illustrated by this but aren't limited to lage blocks
benkay: and for people who have trouble keeping up with the technical times, the costs are going to be higher next time
assbot: [BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 20 @ 0.1 = 2 BTC [+]
Namworld: That's pretty much unavoidable.
mircea_popescu: benkay the top pool is pretty much bankrupt now, is it ?
benkay: market dominance is never an indicator of technical competence
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: 0.116768121719 seconds
benkay: what is mpexlag calculating?
Namworld: MtGox is pretty much constently lagging.
mircea_popescu: the lag to talk to mpex, through a remote and a local proxy
benkay: to the order-parsing system?
ThickAsThieves: so i know they me seem ignorant, but just thinking out loud, is there not a way to make the bitcoin software part of the blockchain itself?
mircea_popescu: it takes .11 seconds for an order to go from bot to remote proxy -> to local proxy -> to trade engine and back
mircea_popescu: it takes .11 seconds for an order to go from bot to remote proxy -> to local proxy and back
benkay: what kind of volume would your trade engine have to see before it started lagging?
benkay: assuming you don't mean btc testnet?
mircea_popescu: (this has to be sustained at that level for an hour or so for things to start feeling it)
smickles: benkay: i could have it place an order, to test, but the problem would be cancelling that order later
mircea_popescu: mpex could trade on beenz if i wanted to, it's completely btc agnostic.
smickles: mircea_popescu: would a better measure be sending a bunk order?
mircea_popescu: once i get the rest online, can you measure the lag for the entire $proxies list ?
mircea_popescu: the way mpex works you get the trade engine lag printed rioght on each stat
ThickAsThieves: any thoughts on somehow tying the bitcoin software to the blockchain itself? dumb idea?
smickles: ThickAsThieves: what purpose would it serve?
Namworld: Would be catastrophic... no more voting on what changes you want
Namworld: Basically, someone controls Bitcoin
smickles: yeah, right now, users 'vote', miners 'vote'
imsaguy: you can always compile your own bitcoin software
smickles: ThickAsThieves: but you don't have to go along with them
imsaguy: you vote with what you use
Namworld: Yeah. But almost the same if software upgrade is forced through the blockchain itself. Not sure how that could even work tho
imsaguy: you take the bitcoin.org reference software
imsaguy: and they say 'this version isn't good after block X'
imsaguy: you've just put an expiration date on the software
imsaguy: I'm not advocating they do this
smickles: where's the statics on what version people are running, i think there are a bunch still on .3
imsaguy: but I don't know how often it updates
imsaguy: ThickAsThieves: Its on the of problems with Microsoft
imsaguy: they keep trying to support the morons that refuse to update
imsaguy: if they cut people off cold turkey, they could cut a lot of hackjobs added to make old software work with the new stuff
smickles: Luke-Jr: updated reasonably well?
Luke-Jr: [17:22:20] <Luke-Jr> it's realtime
imsaguy: smickles: he said realtime
imsaguy: is realtime reasonably well?
Luke-Jr: [13-03-12 17:24:00] 1784/529458 available (520270 tried in 61095s, 9164 new, 24 active), 177 banned; 1692328 DNS requests, 112840 db queries
smickles: ThickAsThieves: look, about 2.45% of the network is using .3 still
imsaguy: Luke-Jr: could you make one that's futuretime?
Luke-Jr: imsaguy: draw a big circle and write 1.0 in the middle?
smickles: imsaguy: compile your own from .8 but modify it to say that it is 1.0
ThickAsThieves: i'm just stuck on meta thoughts lately, i think its lack of sleep
ThickAsThieves: make bitbets about bitbet! put bitcoin software on blockchain!
imsaguy: I am one of the unidentifieds
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 10 @ 0.2 = 2 BTC [+]
iz: ThickAsThieves: *picture of xibit holding a picture of xibit*
kakobrekla: anyone having any txes hanging in the air?
mircea_popescu: until someone figures out how to trigger the berkley bug with a smaller block
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.01770, Best ask: 45.01771, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 45.01771, 24 hour volume: 171261.27579910, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.46900, 24 hour vwap: 43.77026
Anduck: any btct.co admins online?
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 10 @ 0.7 = 7 BTC [-]
gribble: Josh_Rossi was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 day, 16 hours, 7 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <Josh_Rossi> pretty sweet
pigeons: today I downloaded .7 and have been patiently waiting for my blockchain to download, im not sure if I will continue refunds or just buy a big crack rock and smoke it in a cave some where but I am totally offended by this scammer tag
mircea_popescu: so he couldn't do refunds all through february because the devs borked transition to .9
pigeons: "if I was a scammer I could be living it up easy some place warm instead of braving the same upstate new york winters I have been for 30+ years"
mircea_popescu: well... let's just hope gavin sends him the correct lists then
pigeons: "If anyone has any idea how I can buy a large amount of bitcoins please message me. The largest amount I can buy from bitinstant is $500 worth ive looked and looked and its near impossible to make a large bitcoin purchase anywhere."
mod6: to everyone else .... PEACE AND LOVE
mircea_popescu: devs say berkeley is broken. it is fine. they forgot to configure it.
mircea_popescu: this is possibly the worst case of "hi i am calling to report a bug" bungled tech support ever.
mircea_popescu: pigeons i fear it'll take me a little to digest this one
pigeons: you can configure it to use more locks, so far that seems to work just uses a lot more ram but works
mircea_popescu: the proof of something awful's general cluelessness/irrelevance is the low level mock articles they're pushing out.
mod6: yeah BDB has been a thorn in dev's side for a decade. but sounds like this time they forgot about a landmine they already stepped on once before.
mircea_popescu: mod6 bring me up to speed, what exactly is the objection ? it is widely deployed and consequently well debugged by now
mod6: BTC needs a CVE or something or some sort of post mortum.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 5 @ 0.57575758 = 2.8788 BTC [-]
mod6: mircea_popescu: its not really an objection.
mod6: its just something to be cautious of
mod6: so many problems over the years
mod6: i couldn't possibly remember them all
mod6: im just depressed about this shit
mod6: i was thinking about the gox issue...
mod6: and perhaps what we need is something like rootservers for fiat->btc exchanges
mod6: dns has root servers worldwide to resolve requests. thinking that maybe btc could do well to have like 10-13 worldwide exchanges all independant of eachother.
mod6: not that all the code should be the same.
MJR_: but also...those root servers have children
pizzaman1337: kakobrekla wants something like the way fx is setup
mod6: root servers don't keep the same code either, not exactly anyway, this way it prevents a simutaious attack against all
mircea_popescu: mod6 it would be good to have many exchanges, but there's problems with getting that to work in p[ractice
mircea_popescu: because exchanges concentrate liquidity and people chase liquidity
mod6: this will help distrbute the load of exchange, and then btc wont have 1 place to look for price signals.
MJR_: well, one thing is that instant settlement is going to be harder and harder to scale
mircea_popescu: few people involved actually have enough finance knowledge to get it going yet.
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:00 <mircea_popescu> ok, it's like this. suppose the three main dealers are A, B and C.
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:13 <mircea_popescu> chair X calls the meeting. X proposes price, say 47.5
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:27 <mircea_popescu> a, b and c go through their books, see what customers want, see what they want on their own account
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:45 <mircea_popescu> then they say. a buys 50k usd. b sells 25k usd. c sells 70k usd.
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:52 <mircea_popescu> 25 + 70 > 50k so its not fixed
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:18:58 <mircea_popescu> x has to call a lower price now
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:19:00 <jurov> ah that kind of meeting you mean
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:19:08 <mircea_popescu> now a b and c review their books
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:19:14 <mod6> think i just need to add some sleep time....
mircea_popescu: Mar 11 09:19:27 <mircea_popescu> this process is called fixing, it's widely used to obtain a price.
mod6: and fixing this block size thing is kinda crazy. its like you know when you get a UDP request to your DNS server and the reply from the Zone is > than the max size of UDP, it rolls over to tcp
MJR_: well, again I think that could happen on a larger scale...
pgp: credit lines between exchanges to allow cross exchange arb would be an important start...
mod6: i don't think im smart enough for this stuff.
MJR_: pgp: again instant settlement is not sustainable
kakobrekla: the first important step, realizing that.
pgp: this would also require something akin to DTCC (depositiory trust clearing corp) where every exchange is a member and keeps money on deposit...
MJR_: or even wise...since cold storage =\= instant
mircea_popescu: pgp that could easily be implemented using the mpex push for isntance
mircea_popescu: or independently, but pgp is a good solution to keep it safe.
mircea_popescu: problem is every exchange wants to act as if in a vacuum, because
kakobrekla: the problem is exchange ops are retarded
mircea_popescu: the problem with bitcoin in general is the userbase is dumb.
MJR_: well not educated financially
mircea_popescu: devteam, miners, pool ops, exchange ops, everyone is... you know... draftees
MJR_: you would be surprised how many financial wizards have trouble using email
pgp: yes - with the exception of bitfloor, it doesn't seem that these exchanges are run by anyone familiar with how "real" exchanges (and clearing operations) actually work...
mod6: i got trolled so hard by my gf for this shit yesterday
MJR_: so you need people who are tech AND finance savvy
mod6: we're the laughing stock
mircea_popescu: pgp bitfloor, the guys currently owinfg like 900x what they'll ever make ?
MJR_: well...last I checked there was only one exchange that hasn't been hacked
pizzaman1337: so what is the "proper" way to run an exchange? where can I read about this?
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 this ain't knitting we're discussiong here man.
MJR_: well, paranoia does not an efficient market make
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 no but srsly, this is the sort of thing people pay in the 100's of k's for,
MJR_: it is pretty sad that the biggest exchange can't handle orders in less than 5 min
pizzaman1337: well, there must be some info on it somewhere that I could get access too
mircea_popescu: MJR_ mpex doesn't do fiat tho, so it's kinda moot for this problem
MJR_: don't know of anyone getting hacked for fiat
mircea_popescu: what's sad is that they take ~5k a month in hardware costs to process 8k trades in 30 minutes
mircea_popescu: if we scale this liniarly we discover it'd cost more than it's worth to have ti trade
MJR_: I meant the bitcoin exchanges
pgp: for starters, most all exchanges today pay you to add liquidity to their book - the so called "maker-taker" fee model.
MJR_: exactly what pgp said
mircea_popescu: pgp the reason is they're mixing bizdev with the fee schedule.
pigeons: mjr_ where have you been? bitininstant lost usd a few days ago
pigeons: what about bitcoinica? what about every single one?
MJR_: they stole usd from the servers
pgp: moreover, because like asset exchanges belong to the same "clearing clubs", they can route orders to one another to ensure "best execution" for their customers (while, of course, charging for that convenience)...
mircea_popescu: pigeons wait. didn't bitinstant lose the BTC on vircurex ?
MJR_: front page hackers used DNS to steal 12000 worth of BITCOINS
mircea_popescu: usure ? cause i wrote about this and iirc shrem was saying btc
pgp: they weren't using two factor auth with that exchange...
pizzaman1337: "Overall, due to major choke points and redundancies in our system, the hacker was only able to walk away with $12,480 USD in BTC, and send them in 3 installments of 333 BTC to bitcoin addresses."
pgp: you can lead a horse to water
MJR_: they listed the loss in dollars, but you can't send cash over a wire
MJR_: anyway I think there is a ton of room for competition to mt gox
mod6: there needs to be at least 3
mod6: all independant of eachother that aren't scams
MJR_: but even better opportunity for someone to route flow between exchanges
MJR_: lol, not being scams is key
mod6: if they were modeled after mpex, that'd be a start
MJR_: I really think a gpg based order system would be nice
mod6: not the SAME code, but similar to avoid attacks upon a weakness found in one
mod6: similar to rootservers
mircea_popescu: mod6 one of the key reasons why i keep the code closed.
mircea_popescu: people would just mindlessly replicate it (see bitfinex) then we'll be well fucked
MJR_: but also...I really think node and branch will be needed
mod6: and really... the UDP (TCP when needed) is a model that the guys should be looking at to solve this blocksize issue
mircea_popescu: in a sense mpex is constructed exactly opposite of how bitcoin is constructed.
mod6: any thoughts on that? anyone know what I'm referring to?
mircea_popescu: keep the specification open and the implementation proprietary
mircea_popescu: versus the keep the specification equal to the unreadable codebase.
MJR_: know exactly what you are talking about
jcpham: you access mpex through open standards
MJR_: I wrote a program to monitor how often we need to fail over to TCp for our data feeds
jcpham: how it works is not your concern
jcpham: unicorns are definitely walking in hamster wheels though
MJR_: I think it's multicast tcp?
MJR_: I think bitcoin-assets is the bleeding edge of the bleeding edge
jurov: mod6, how would UDP help in blocksize issuie?
MJR_: when you think that people on coinbase are probably still in the innovators (before 18%) stage...wow
pigeons: really? its second to -otc in stupid
pigeons: all your fancy exchange routing will be done via ripple
MJR_: I can't remember your exact quote mircea_popescu but something like "if you want to use crypto currency but don't understand cryptography..."
mod6: jurov: we can learn a thing or two, perhaps, about how DNS solves the issue. UDP is meant to be fast, and arbitrarily large since forward/reverse zones can contain an large amount of entries.
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.00755 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: mod6 of course, the blockszie issue wasn't hitting the transport layer
MJR_: I think a central clearing corp, that only needs to transfer the diff between exchanges will be the best way
mircea_popescu: look what happened in ny when the clearing corp got flooded
mod6: but when the size of UDP gets over 65,535 bytes (need to double check), it simply converts it to TCP and sends it that way. something can be learned from this, nothing more.
pigeons: mircea_popescu: cause people are transitioning from doing it via the private standalone django app to the new ripple but it is being done now
mod6: im not saying about the transport, or anything
mod6: im simply saying, look at how this problem was solved
mircea_popescu: pigeons on superficial analysis ripple seems just the place where the curerent bitcoindev rats will sucrry to
pigeons: yes perhaps, but currency liquidity flowed throug it before and will continue too,
mod6: i dunno, i guess i'd have to spend some time in there. and the client needs to be combed through
jurov: mod6, maximal packet size (or MTU) is hard fact baked into ethernet from the beginning, not some broker earlier implementation
mod6: slice and dice shit out of there that needs to be replaced.
mircea_popescu: mod6 actually once you're done with the iphone app, a very good use of someone's time is to go through the codebase and summarize it
MJR_: mircea_popescu: what iphone app?
mod6: i never wanted to touch bitcoin's client or anything else because the #bitcoin-dev is filled with pompus retards
mod6: so i'll just my retard ass out of there
jurov: mod6 good for ya. i did touch it and it didn't hurt.
jurov: but maybe i'm just crazy, going into anything
jurov: without such considerations
mod6: i'd love to take the time to audit that shit, but who wants to fight with LukeJr and the others?
mod6: aint noone got time for that
kakobrekla: oh i read that "in summary the coinbase is defenetly useful" and got a heart attack almost
MJR_: ain't no one got time for that indeed
mod6: yeah. its way out of hand
jcpham: i'm doing much better in the poll today
jurov: mod6 i'm not interested in arguing. if i had time, i'll do a fork with some very useful function and wait for them to come
jurov: cuz it's fork of bitcoind
mod6: or you just cloned and went forward?
jurov: wasn't hard... couldn't understand why that function isn't exposed already
mod6: yeah, its WAY too large imho
jurov: prolly they don't have time to test properly xD
mod6: thats obvious to everyone in the world who pays attention
mod6: they should back away after this
jurov: well, they preferred to entagle themselves in multisig txs at the time
jurov: incidentally, they still don't have sane interface, too
mircea_popescu: i am still steaming over the fact that i can't create abitrary size txs
jurov: lmao DUE TO OVERWHELMING REQUESTS we had to remove PayPal & Local Pickup options.
jurov: yes, only nonreversable nonpersonal means. fyr maximum security.
mod6: for starters who does this? Dbc* pcursor = db.GetCursor();
mod6: i just hate looking at the client code. maybe its just their style.
mod6: its like: Dbc *pcursor = db.GetCursor();
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.3449 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.345 = 0.69 BTC [+]
mod6: at least the SSL code they copied looks to be better: BN_CTX *ctx = NULL;
mod6: ok i gotta walk away for a bit and think about this some more.
mod6: i still <3 you guys tho :)
benkay: mircea_popescu: what do you mean by arbitrarily-sized transactions?
assbot: [BTCTC] [SYNERGY] 1 @ 0.076 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [SYNERGY] 1 @ 0.076 BTC [-]
Anduck: and pay a huge fee of.. 0.1 btc!!
mircea_popescu: and more importantly bitcoind doesnt die with "failed to create transaction"
mircea_popescu: this sort of shit belongs in onboard code for vibrating dildoes at the most.
Lyspooner: what about those of us who have been running 0.9
benkay: it's a transient state. frustrating to be sure.
benkay: especially to those of us accustomed to flushing idiots out of systems with economics.
benkay: you mentioned something about the dev team starting work on a spec?
benkay: would you point me at that?
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 3 @ 0.2 = 0.6 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 0.724999 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: sipa jgarzik: have we seen a block which affected 5000 transaction index entries?
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 1 @ 0.18 BTC [-]
Lyspooner: The Church of Bitcoin and the Vatican Bitcoin Foundation have met Luther Popescu
mod6: so can we rewind the tape just a bit...
mod6: didn't this happen or something very similar to it before?
mod6: like on upgrade from version 4 to 5 or something? there was a night where they did an upgrade and the similar thing happened.
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 87 @ 0.00559 = 0.4863 BTC [+]
mod6: i gotta look through btctalk for that *sigh*
mod6: awe fuck it, i guess that's long ago anyway.
jurov: mircea_popescu one thing i don't understand, you aren't going to hire any devs yourself cause it isn't worth the conflict and drama?
jurov: what do you plan to do, then?
mod6: it shouldn't be up to one dude to pay for all this shit...
mircea_popescu: and ideally remove the current devteam's license to release new clients.
jurov: and who will do the spec? have any allies to do it together?
mircea_popescu: then once we have spec they can fix their fucked codebase and release a proper client
mod6: i just feel like, this should be like a HACK THE PLANET type thing, and people who want this to work will make it work.
mod6: im not sure what planet these guys are on, but if this is their baby and they have commitbits to the most widely used full-node base, they aught to make sure it functions correctly.
mod6: anyway, drives me up a wall, I'll tell you. :)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.574 = 1.148 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jurov anyway, the problem isn't as much the drama, but moreover that a single-source codebase is both non-bitcoiny and suspect.
mircea_popescu: but i think if we can get one (or ideally multiple) people to summarize the code
mircea_popescu: this wouldn't take much longer than a few weeks for a first draft, which can then be argued and refined
mircea_popescu: in my experience any devteam resists such an effort like cats resist washing, because coders love to write but hate having to read code.
mircea_popescu: hiowever, once it's complete there's a few day's worth of facepalming and going "wait, we are doing W?HAT ?!"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.57577575 BTC [+]
mod6: this is a solid plan.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.57999999 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: of course it has to first get the cat into the washing machine.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 6 @ 0.58 = 3.48 BTC [+]
jurov: well, i'd love to and have no problems to read others code.. just that i'm neck deep elsewhere atm.
mircea_popescu: why it's called open source after all, sits there and waits for when / who has time for it
jurov: oh, that happens with all opensource without paid devs
mircea_popescu: a. i hire someone. well... this opens the political problem of "oh, he's mp's puppet".
mircea_popescu: b. i set up a prize which anyone may claim. well... this opens the idiocy problem of "oh, I don'tneed his money, what does me take for, a starving artist????"
mod6: right. no, this needs to be something that is adopted by the users of the system.
mircea_popescu: + "it's not enough" drama + trying to get the pruize with as little work as possible etc
jurov: just hire someone. this muppet argument will ensue but code/doc will remain in the end
jurov: i remember something like with linux and redhat
jurov: maybe i'll hire amir taaki.. he'll do gladly for food and shelter
mod6: well, i think this bitcoin project is again an "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US." type of thing.
jurov: mod6 what outer space metaphors are you onto again....
dub: so this fucking agent calls me in yesterday to show the same offer as last week, only on paper
mircea_popescu: jurov i bet you i can tell you have just by reading his output
dub: because numbers look different than they sound obviously
benkay: what are you taking offers on, dub?
jurov: lol the vride isn't up to specs
mod6: So, what I'm saying is, I think it's a really good thing to create a spec, and then everyone can punch eachother in the nuts over it until its perfect. This is the way to go.
benkay: there will eventually be an incentive for the miners to disregard devsquad
benkay: in retrospect, i'm a little surprised they didn't this time
mod6: I think, at least for myself, every time I had to write a paper, or have written some code; I've gone back the next day or at some later date and done a `wtf?'
mod6: even the other night, i wrote that code quick that worked. i mean, it kinda worked, in the way that it fucked a donkey.
mircea_popescu: the btcguild people got fucked for ~2k btc because of it.
mircea_popescu: this keeps up, soon enough idiots will not have the dough to keep going
mod6: but then you know, you review, you think about it, you make changes and it gets better.
benkay: it's a painful process
benkay: dunno if i agree about that.
jurov: mod6 yea but if you don't painstakingly document it it just won't go past some threshold
benkay: i don't optimize for pain.
Lyspooner: where'd the 2k btc figure come from?
mod6: i've said that before. but usually my code works too.
jurov: yes bitcoind usually works, too
mircea_popescu: Lyspooner they lost ~1.2k because the new .8 redownloaded the chain and they autopaid miners submitting as if low diff
benkay: i optimize for pleasure within my in-group, and i let the rest of the world experience their own mistakes.
mircea_popescu: they lost a further however much cause of discarded blocks
Lyspooner: mircea_popescu were they auto-paying miners with coins older than 120 blocks since mined?
mircea_popescu: yes, the op was quite clear about having lost the 1.2k
Lyspooner: anything faster than 120 blocks is the ops fault
Lyspooner: they are paying miners with fresher coins than is safe
mircea_popescu: as the blockchain was being downloaded, the difficulty was corresponding to very old blocks, ie, very low.
jurov: Lyspooner pools attract noobs on fast payouts, is that surprising for you?
mircea_popescu: as miners submitted current work, they were paid for their share of contribution to that low difficulty
Lyspooner: maybe i misunderstand mining pools' payouts. but if i do work now, i shouldn't be paid until t+120
mircea_popescu: and speaking of that 120... YET MORE MAGIC NUMBERS FUCKING HELL
Lyspooner: but that's the risk that mining pool ops assume
jurov: kakobrekla you didn't got doublespended on smpake.com?
mircea_popescu: Lyspooner not detachedly from the general "trusting devteam" risk
mod6: (13:35) < jurov> mod6 yea but if you don't painstakingly document it it just won't go past some threshold << documentation is amazing
mod6: i've read tons of technical manuals. i quite like the strangely.
mod6: but... it doesn't have to be 50 volumes to be helpful either.
mod6: cause the source speaks volumes itself
mod6: but there can always be a little guidence on how it is designed, why something is implemented the way it is, etc.
mod6: i feel like we need a bitcoin RFC
assbot: Quest for vision is a great blessing.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 45.97092, Best ask: 46.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.02908, Last trade: 46.00000, 24 hour volume: 179859.80684158, 24 hour low: 36.65000, 24 hour high: 48.39999, 24 hour vwap: 43.75220
maximian: market doesn't seem terribly concerned about about all this
jurov: and seeing evoorhees, "blockchain forks. satoshi dice not affected" i guess
maximian: SatoshiDice bet sizes not being affected by the exchange rate is a nice surprise
jurov: that would be funny if satoshidice kept functional on both sides of the fork
mircea_popescu: idiot parade is lucky that evoorhees is a sweetheard, even if they treat him like dirt.
mod6: (12:08) < mircea_popescu> mod6 actually once you're done with the iphone app, a very good use of someone's time is to go through the codebase and summarize it
mod6: (12:08) < mircea_popescu> that;s usually a good step towards specification.
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 20 @ 0.00559 = 0.1118 BTC [+]
mod6: maybe bitotter can wait
mod6: cause i feel like i want to clone and start going through this thing again. last year, I made a shit load of my own changes to get it working on freebsd properly.
mod6: anyway, I'll pull to linux and go through the code.
mod6: i wont start by making any changes to the source, just review it as I can.
mod6: yall should be doing the same thing.
mircea_popescu: if you only start them, work for some, then start new one... lot of wasted work man.
assbot: [BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 20 @ 0.1 = 2 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [LTC-MINING] 1 @ 0.39 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.2 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 2 @ 0.1987 = 0.3974 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: spec stands to code in the same relationship contract stands to trade.
mircea_popescu: you can have trade without contracts but it's a recipe for disaster.
Lyspooner: i understand it only metaphorically now
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 24 @ 0.00999 = 0.2398 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: P T Barnum's Magical Trading Cards & Bitcoin Esoteric Foundation ?
Lyspooner: I was thinking: The Bitcoin Best Guess Foundation
assbot: [BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 5 @ 0.1 = 0.5 BTC [+]