⏐︎ 17416
kakobrekla: what forums needs is global shitlist groups
kakobrekla: so you have a bfl group and a mpex group and a hmm...
kakobrekla: and each group has a common ignore list
mircea_popescu: lol
kakobrekla: then just decide whose camp you join
mircea_popescu: lets make forums more like highschool
dub: it needs a wot
dub: web of tards
mircea_popescu: dub they wouldn't know how to use it
mircea_popescu: which is also true of cunt.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone here capable of explaining ripple to me ?
mircea_popescu: cause it seems massively retarded.
dub: ignore if ignored by n*people I dont ignore
dub: bootstrap it with big list of tards (ie ~half the people on there)
mircea_popescu: you'd get bored tho
mircea_popescu: i think half the fun for ppl is the tards
dub: yeah but you have a slider that controls n
dub: adjust if you are looking for info or a laugh at some tards
jurov: someone needs to sell shirt with btc logo on front and "Every Day I Write Here The Name Of Someone Who Scammed Me" on back
Diablo-D3: jesus
mircea_popescu: dub : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130264.msg1398343 point in case
Diablo-D3: it'd be full by the end of the week
jcpham: i'm not sure about ripple mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: I use Linux since 2001, so I know my stuff
mircea_popescu: I just noticed the password is saved in my phone's browser.
Diablo-D3: DMC would need like 3 tshirts just to start with
jcpham: almsot seems like a way to extend credit in a p2p manner
mircea_popescu: jcpham what sense does that make ?
jcpham: no clue
jcpham: like p2p fractional reserve
Diablo-D3: heh
mircea_popescu: so basically this has all the disadvantages of getting married
jcpham: hahaha
mircea_popescu: and as an extra bonus, you don't marry a hot chick.
mircea_popescu: sounds like a winner.
mircea_popescu: ifyou do credit might as well have a centra lbank.
Diablo-D3: I dont see why we keep trying to loan money
Diablo-D3: I mean, loaning money to businesses is one thing, loaning it to private citizens is another
mircea_popescu: i don't see the sense of btc loans either.
Diablo-D3: the reason the world financial system is falling apart is because we keep loaning people money
Diablo-D3: why repeat it with BTC
jcpham: iirc ripple allows o fund from many currencies
Diablo-D3: without all the fake bank fees, most of america would have a shitload of money
jcpham: so your stash would be how to vouch for other people or something?
Diablo-D3: the average american has $50k in debt
jcpham: i don't get it either because loaning people money has already burned me
Diablo-D3: the average american pays more than $50k of interest and fees in their lifetime
jcpham: i leverage my debt is funny USD all the time
jcpham: to increase my position
jcpham: i don't see how it works in ripple though
jcpham: seems rife for theft
jcpham: and fraud
jcpham: and they gave it to me!
Diablo-D3: wait, what?
jcpham: do you not have a mortgage
jcpham: my bank owns my half-million dollar home
jcpham: until i pay them bank
Namjies: Ah, well if the lend it on a house...
jcpham: however now i have an expensive house to borrow against
Namjies: wait...
Namjies: nvm
Namjies: Buy lotta bitcoins now.
Diablo-D3: jcpham: oh, thats not real money
Diablo-D3: I thought you meant they loaned you half a mil in real money
jcpham: free money
Diablo-D3: not free, now they can come and take your house any time they wish
jcpham: ;p
Diablo-D3: seriously, all they have to do is go to a court, claim you failed to pay your mortgage for several months, and then give a false address to ship the court notice to
mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 you know foreclosure is a net loss for a bank
Diablo-D3: you fail to show up to a court case you never were informed of, the bank gets a default judgement, then begins eviction
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: it should be illegal, really
Diablo-D3: why should a bank get the assets
Diablo-D3: if anything, the government should
Diablo-D3: in virtually all cases, the government loaned the money to the bank to loan out in the first place
Namjies: By that logic, why not abolish banks and replace them with government owned banks? And extend that logic to just everything else?
Namjies: Cause all the money used to buy everything is the property of the government to start with so why wouldn't it own everything bought with it?
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130643.0
mircea_popescu: seems mtgox btc deposits down
Diablo-D3: Namjies: well, we already DID do that
Diablo-D3: we replaced the entire industry with a piece of software
mircea_popescu: <Namjies> Cause all the money used to buy everything is the property of the government to start with so why wouldn't it own everything bought with it? << bullshit.
Diablo-D3: Namjies: and no, if I have $10 actual dollars in my pocket, its mine
Diablo-D3: banks, unless they're very small regional banks or they're credit unions, are in debt to the government
Diablo-D3: and that was pre-bailout
jcpham: i agree about it not being real money though
Namjies: Yes, so maybe instead the right thing to do would be not print money and give it to banks all the time.
Diablo-D3: well, "we" dont
Diablo-D3: the federal reserve does, which illegally prints money
dub: ITC: man that lives with his mom gives property investing advice
Namjies: Does "real money" actually exist?
jcpham: wow that's deep
Namjies: All money is always something we greatly overvalue compared to their inherent use or even complete uselessness. All for the sake of easier trading.
mircea_popescu: dub lol
Namjies: No money has inherently the value it represents. It's all symbolic and trust.
Diablo-D3: dub: who?
dub: Diablo-D3: I don't know who else here lives with his mom and gives property investign advice
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu?
mircea_popescu: hm?
dub: he gave property advice?
Diablo-D3: dub: I dunno, who here is young enough to live with their mother?
dub: are you trying to say that you finally moved out?
Diablo-D3: moved out of where?
dub: last count you lived with your mom
Diablo-D3: my mom died of cancer.
Diablo-D3: good job there, dub.
dub: of course she did
dub: you need to bait less obviously
dub: but im sorry for your loss man
mircea_popescu: this is going well
Diablo-D3: I knew it! Dub works for bfl!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00059604 = 2.5755 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15006 @ 0.00059589 = 8.9419 BTC [-]
dub: oh fuck
dub: lol I just fucked up
Ukto: lol
dub: fuck
dub: accidentally defaulted a whole router instead of just one of teh redundant routing engines
Ukto: what routing software are you using?
jcpham: relamen do it in assembly
dub: junos
markedathome: dub: sure you don't want to work for google?
dub: lolwat?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1900 @ 0.003395 = 6.4505 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4000 @ 0.00059589 = 2.3836 BTC [-]
dub: markedathome: I know some people in GOOGs network team, not sure I'd qualify
markedathome: google's crash earlier this week was due to misconfigured routing engines (for the chrome sync I think)
dub: oh
markedathome: i would hate to be on the SRE teams... "oh let's pull this out and see what happens to the live system"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5139 @ 0.00059618 = 3.0638 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00059707 = 2.5799 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16340 @ 0.0005972 = 9.7582 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 484 @ 0.0005972 = 0.289 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17798 @ 0.0005996 = 10.6717 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8586 @ 0.00060161 = 5.1654 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18714 @ 0.00060161 = 11.2585 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2864 @ 0.00060403 = 1.7299 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5826 @ 0.00060692 = 3.5359 BTC [+]
pigeons: scammers could get btcjam front scam ideas here: http://www.crowdcube.com/investment/bike-leasing-company-ltd-12291
Bugpowder: The unlickiest S.DICE player? http://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=1B5h9sf6xNLYGa3NBk48hwYbxyNZ22PRJk
Bugpowder: Another 1800 profit for S.DICE in the last 20 minutes
Namjies: How do you check actual profits?
Bugpowder: Pull the data into an excel spread sheet and add the columns
Bugpowder: http://satoshidice.com/lookup.php?tx=&limit=1000&min_bet=10&status=ALL
Bugpowder: Dooglas does a more complete job
Bugpowder: but this is good for the periods in between posts.
OgNasty: Hello
kakobrekla: hi
OgNasty: Any NastyFans in here?
kakobrekla: came for your glory?
OgNasty: Came to answer any questions folks might have. Live with the Og...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060625 = 2.6196 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9429 @ 0.00060609 = 5.7148 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060632 = 2.6199 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2829 @ 0.00060609 = 1.7146 BTC [-]
pigeons: OgNasty: are you gonna list on bitfunder?
Ukto: hey og
Ukto: hows thew nw club? :)
OgNasty: pigeons: bitfunder looked illegal to me... just like GLBSE...
pigeons: ok then
OgNasty: I have no desire to trust another random stranger with an illegal operation.
OgNasty: Perhaps a pass-thru in the future maybe...
OgNasty: Ukto: The club is going great so far.
OgNasty: Far superior to any competition.
kakobrekla: competition to what?
OgNasty: kakobrekla: Exactly.
OgNasty: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86854.0
OgNasty: kakobrekla: Link to topic of discussion.
OgNasty: Even gigavps runs in fear. lol
OgNasty: Looks like that's all the questions...
OgNasty: Take care bitcoiners. Stay safe.
kakobrekla: we are asseteers.
OgNasty: bitcoin-asseteers
dub: the mighty corolla once again has a contiguous exhaust system
dub: no longer giving the impression of a passenger jet driving down teh road
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1750 @ 0.00332571 = 5.82 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22850 @ 0.00060609 = 13.8492 BTC [-]
dub: http://www.masswerk.at/google60/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6692 @ 0.00060609 = 4.056 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: too slow
Diablo-D3: "Don't worry, I was trained by special ops." "I don't care if you were trained by ninjas, my mother has eyes in the back of YOUR head"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19608 @ 0.00060583 = 11.8791 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7042 @ 0.00060692 = 4.2739 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1667 @ 0.00060264 = 1.0046 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1763 @ 0.00060127 = 1.06 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00060127 = 10.6425 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2437 @ 0.00060127 = 1.4653 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20400 @ 0.00060124 = 12.2653 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9013 @ 0.00059816 = 5.3912 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2487 @ 0.00059816 = 1.4876 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6644 @ 0.00059589 = 3.9591 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17266 @ 0.00059431 = 10.2614 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00060154 = 6.3162 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00060154 = 11.5496 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3723 @ 0.00060154 = 2.2395 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3532 @ 0.00060692 = 2.1436 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00060725 = 5.4653 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5198 @ 0.00060814 = 3.1611 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060779 = 2.6263 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 479 @ 0.00060814 = 0.2913 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00059924 = 2.5893 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 690 @ 0.00059917 = 0.4134 BTC [-]
dub: early footage of nefario http://i.imgur.com/VzOsR.gif
Namjies: What da fu...
Namjies: That kid probably either regrets this or find it really funny by now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12310 @ 0.00059917 = 7.3758 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6426 @ 0.00059431 = 3.819 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: dub: the hell
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00059454 = 2.569 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5608 @ 0.00059431 = 3.3329 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13771 @ 0.00059419 = 8.1826 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060787 = 2.6266 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6829 @ 0.00060814 = 4.153 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: Whoever is dropping the big coin on S.DICE better not make all their money back by the end of the month or I am gonna be pissed
Chaang-Noi: lol
Chaang-Noi: talked to m00t yesterday about bitcoin :) pretty epic ☟︎
Chaang-Noi: hell, he sent me some btc:)
Diablo-D3: lol moot
Chaang-Noi: yeah, but he sent me btc for the failedattempt at the 4chan pass
Chaang-Noi: they take btc now
Chaang-Noi: m00t seems to be incharge of refunds
Diablo-D3: moot is in charge of ALL OF 4CHAN
Chaang-Noi: yeah, but he does not do everything...
Diablo-D3: he still does most of it
Chaang-Noi: i see how handing out btc refunds however is something he would want to do
Chaang-Noi: id say he is active, but im pretty sure he does not do close to most of the work
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8450 @ 0.00060779 = 5.1358 BTC [-]
Chaang-Noi: been there about 10 years but never had direct contact with m00t, no need to i guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12194 @ 0.00060814 = 7.4157 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9109 @ 0.00060934 = 5.5505 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060919 = 2.6323 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15279 @ 0.00060934 = 9.3101 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8235 @ 0.00061001 = 5.0234 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060807 = 2.6275 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6979 @ 0.00060779 = 4.2418 BTC [-]
smickles: any recent news?
copumpkin: I'm awesome
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 971 @ 0.00060779 = 0.5902 BTC [-]
copumpkin: does that count?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4979 @ 0.0006036 = 3.0053 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: satoshi dice is still getting insane action
smickles: copumpkin: well, only if you were the shit before. I'd say that sort of state change is noteworthy
copumpkin: wait, _the_ shit, or just shit?
copumpkin: cause it's amazing how different those are
smickles: _the_ shit ;D
copumpkin: lol
copumpkin: ok
smickles: Bugpowder: wow, yeah
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060985 = 2.6352 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 979 @ 0.00061001 = 0.5972 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: If this keeps up, shareholders are either going to get a 10% dividend this month or jack shit
Bugpowder: or something in between :-/
kakobrekla: ;;tslb
gribble: Time since last block: 42 minutes and 45 seconds
Bugpowder: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.65002, Best ask: 13.70000, Bid-ask spread: 0.04998, Last trade: 13.65001, 24 hour volume: 22675.12090777, 24 hour low: 13.46777, 24 hour high: 13.80000, 24 hour vwap: 13.68949
Bugpowder: Anybody have a favorite place to scrape BTC and futures prices from for a MM bot?
kakobrekla: mm?
Bugpowder: market maker
kakobrekla: a.
Bugpowder: thinking of providing some more liquidity for the market in some futures
Bugpowder: on mpex
Bugpowder: but need reliable scrapes.
Bugpowder: or a different source
Bugpowder: of data
smickles: Bugpowder: you don't like scraping btc prices from mtgox/bitcoincharts?
smickles: Bugpowder: and is http://finance.yahoo.com/rssindex good enough for the futures?
thestringpuller: piamo
Bugpowder: I was scraping from bitcoincharts
thestringpuller: piano
thestringpuller: futures on piano
Bugpowder: for my google doc of my fund positions
smickles: err, that's the news feed on yahoo :|
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4182 @ 0.00060982 = 2.5503 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: I will check the yahoo thing
Bugpowder: I have been using barchart.com for the futures
Bugpowder: thanks for the suggestions
plate: what futures you tracking?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060389 = 2.6094 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11029 @ 0.0006036 = 6.6571 BTC [-]
copumpkin: I buy futures on forward contracts
Ukto: Buglouse: bitcoincharts is quickly becoming out of date
Ukto: tcatm has been very afkish
Ukto: he hasnt removed at least one dead exchange
Ukto: and has yet to add ours (emailed him a month ago)
plate: I fuck with forex
plate: but I used to do futures
thestringpuller: smickles
Bugpowder: plate I'm currently offering Gold, Nasdaq100 and Crude for sale on MPEX, but I haven't implemented a true market maker position yet
thestringpuller: you are doing futures on crude?
Bugpowder: Trying to figure out what will have the most volume. I thought those would, but people seem more into Corn and the Nikkei
plate: reallllly
plate: interesting
Bugpowder: Well MPEX is market making for all of their futures, but I am trying to bring the spread down a bit for buyers of those
plate: well
plate: if you want free money
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 139 @ 0.00060982 = 0.0848 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9787 @ 0.00061001 = 5.9702 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3316 @ 0.00061091 = 2.0258 BTC [+]
plate: ride out EUR/JPY to 112.. then if it holds there.. ride it to 120
Bugpowder: I'm only trading with bitcoin denominated securites now
Bugpowder: I want to win from a fiat perspective, even when I'm losing
smickles: thestringpuller: i'm not familiar with the crude market
plate: fiat.. isn't it all fiat?
Bugpowder: thestringpuller Here is the crude http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=X.EWTI
Bugpowder: lol
Bugpowder: yeah ok
Bugpowder: relative to paper money
plate: anyhow
Bugpowder: err, gov backed currencies
plate: future ES... ride it to 1500
Bugpowder: I have plenty of exposure in SP500
plate: think its like 12.25 pip
Bugpowder: in dollars
plate: or some shit
plate: oh okay
Bugpowder: but trading is tough to win over the long term
Bugpowder: and bitcoin market is small enough that maybe I can play around being a MM and make a little on the spread
thestringpuller: smickles: help me raise capital for something awesome
smickles: what's the something awesome?
plate: europe is like an ATM right now
plate: fucking loving it
thestringpuller: smickles: help me raise capital for something awesome
kakobrekla: what do you mean plate
Bugpowder: give him money to gamble in Forex with
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061075 = 2.6391 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19284 @ 0.00061091 = 11.7808 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15646 @ 0.00061126 = 9.5638 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: i dont speculate
smickles: thestringpuller: ^ i'm helping :)
dub: wat
kakobrekla: i sent 22mil
thestringpuller: lol
dub: don't do that ffs
dub: im like, its smickles, has to be legit, send
smickles: thestringpuller: but srsly, do you have the good idea already?
plate: kakobrekla: market wise
plate: I'm long EUR/JPY.. euro is strengthening and yen is weakening
thestringpuller: a simple media company. i am currently pitching s tvshow/game to adult swim
plate: chinese currency is entering the forex markets in Feb '13
thestringpuller: when we finish the first phase of pre production for the pilot i can have sit downs with the script and potential studio financeers
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060383 = 2.6091 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1592 @ 0.0006036 = 0.9609 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3487 @ 0.0006022 = 2.0999 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14602 @ 0.00061126 = 8.9256 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2711 @ 0.00061131 = 1.6573 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.000611 = 2.6401 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4939 @ 0.00061131 = 3.0193 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4640 @ 0.00061185 = 2.839 BTC [+]
smickles: thestringpuller: I'm not sure that I can help out all that much with funding that sort of project
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00060399 = 1.51 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16175 @ 0.00061185 = 9.8967 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: pigeons : they made one of those bike leasing companies here
mircea_popescu: it failed so laughably...
pigeons: sounds perfect for a btcjam loan
pigeons: hahaha
pigeons: http://www.crowdcube.com/investment/angel-alerts-ltd-12268
mircea_popescu: what's that ognasty club thing ?
pigeons: ok i'm not telling anybody anymore of these, I'm just gonna start listing them on btct/cryptostocks/bitfunder
mircea_popescu: <Bugpowder> Whoever is dropping the big coin on S.DICE better not make all their money back by the end of the month or I am gonna be pissed <<< lol. y the haet ?!
pigeons: http://www.crowdcube.com/investment/trampooline-ltd-12051
mircea_popescu: pigeons list them as Nefario, Inc.
pigeons: yeah i think they will do best on btcjam
pigeons: i'll list as psychoticboy/gigavps/meni/mpoe
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1450 @ 0.00336629 = 4.8811 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 3350 @ 0.00336178 = 11.262 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: if you list as mpoe http://www.google.com/search?q=catfish+pigeons&complete=0
pigeons: i still can't believe you hire someone to do your trolling for you
mircea_popescu: <copumpkin> does that cunt? <<< which one ?
copumpkin: all of them!
mircea_popescu: also, who's plate ?
mircea_popescu: <Bugpowder> Well MPEX is market making for all of their futures << not at all ?
Bugpowder: no?
Bugpowder: who is?
Bugpowder: I guess it doesn't matter
Bugpowder: someone is
mircea_popescu: i have no idea
mircea_popescu: but yeah, i said it then, i thought (iirc smickles asked ? )
mircea_popescu: mpex isn't mm-ing any of them
Bugpowder: It's interesting that the options MM clearly has very different assumptions about the future price of BTC than the futures MM
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00059693 = 2.5793 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1278 @ 0.00059678 = 0.7627 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: well that explains it lol
mircea_popescu: i don't even think it's mm-ing per se, i think people just threw some bids up
Bugpowder: devising hedging strategy
Bugpowder: Those bids disappear every few minutes and reappear, adjusted
Bugpowder: err
Bugpowder: maybe I'm thinking of the options
Bugpowder: nevermind
mircea_popescu: on futures ?
mircea_popescu: cause that'd indeed be mm-ing but so far haven't seen it
pigeons: mpex patented "invisible hand" order matching algorithm
Bugpowder: any advantage to doing SPLIT over MKOPT? Or is Split just good for straddles and strangles?
mircea_popescu: pigeons invisible fist.
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder less fee.
plate: I thought patenting algos was a no-no because then you devulge the secret sauce
Bugpowder: MKOPT is how much fee?
pigeons: you can have the secret, you need a tpm computer to run it
mircea_popescu: All MKOPT orders are assesed a 2% fee (SPLIT orders are free).
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.0006117 = 2.6432 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 831 @ 0.00061185 = 0.5084 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3048 @ 0.00061252 = 1.867 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: Ah, that is in a different place
mircea_popescu: ya, it's in the faq
Bugpowder: than the MKOPT description
mircea_popescu: http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/faq.html#12
Bugpowder: MKFUT fee is in the description
mircea_popescu: i guess im inconsistent
Bugpowder: hence my confusion
bonafide: what's up mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: s.mpoe
mircea_popescu: on the sad news front, seems nobody knows how to price the idiffs
mircea_popescu: not surprising i guess.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060774 = 2.626 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.0006076 = 2.6254 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13008 @ 0.00060754 = 7.9029 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/they-finally-really-did-it-eu-okays-central-banking-authority-approves-greece-for-another-bailout/ heh
mircea_popescu: “Europe and the eurozone have proved that they are capable of eliminating the challenges that confront them,” said France’s socialist President Francois Hollande.
mircea_popescu: fucking socialists will drive us all in the hole
bonafide: you're right
bonafide: that and lazy people who want a handout
bonafide: I cant stand left wing nuts in the US
mircea_popescu: then the fuckwit french finance minister "lambasts" rich people
mircea_popescu: it's sickening, this.
bonafide: France: lets raise taxes to 75% on the rich!!!... theRich: okay lets move out of Franch
bonafide: now who are they left to tax?
mircea_popescu: they're left to whine.
bonafide: same with the US
bonafide: the rich will just get sick of taxes
mircea_popescu: it's like a stupid bitch that marries some rich dude, won't cook, he tells her she either gets with the programme or gets lost
bonafide: and leave and give up citizenship
mircea_popescu: she bitches
bonafide: then who's left to tax
mircea_popescu: then she gets served divorce papers
mircea_popescu: then she's all teary
mircea_popescu: well... shoulda fucken listen when we were jus' talkin'.
bonafide: mircea_popescu where you located?
mircea_popescu: romania
mircea_popescu: which seems will never actually join the eurozone at this rate.
bonafide: well that could be a good thing
mircea_popescu: it's been a pretty good thing so far.
bonafide: Germany will get sick of supporting Greece, Spain and soon France
bonafide: and will leave
bonafide: that will be the collapse of that
mircea_popescu: romania has miore gold than like,... australia
mircea_popescu: or kuwait, or brazil/argentina etc.
bonafide: AUD is strengthening tho
mircea_popescu: everyone's strengthening with this idiocy going on
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061222 = 2.6454 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061246 = 2.6464 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7458 @ 0.00061252 = 4.5682 BTC [+]
bonafide: not really
mircea_popescu: the us just announced 40+45 bn in crapola
bonafide: EUR, USD, and JPY are printing money like its a fad
bonafide: I deal with left wing nuts all day
bonafide: people wanting free hand outs, expecting something for nothing
bonafide: drives me insane
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: "o, it's just money". pfff.
mircea_popescu: no, it's not "just" money. it's money. you're just an idiot.
bonafide: they want to tax more to spend more
bonafide: uhmmm you need to reduce the debt
bonafide: instead of leveraging to the hill
bonafide: thanks for getting me all worked up haha
Bugpowder: hilt
bonafide: hilt*
bonafide: thanks
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.67790, Best ask: 13.78850, Bid-ask spread: 0.11060, Last trade: 13.66412, 24 hour volume: 23631.23995353, 24 hour low: 13.46777, 24 hour high: 13.80000, 24 hour vwap: 13.69064
mircea_popescu: creeping up huh.
mircea_popescu: "Generally, pushing the security down to the hardware level in conjunction with software provides more protection than a software-only solution. "
mircea_popescu: this is so stupid. wikipedia, land of the useful idiots. who came up with this ?
bonafide: some analyst at BAC said gold to be at 5000$/oz in two years
bonafide: with QE infinity in place, probably
mircea_popescu: the thing is btc will outpace gold on the long term
bonafide: with hyper inflation around the corner
bonafide: mircea_popescu that's abold statement
bonafide: a bold*
mircea_popescu: you can quote me on it
bonafide: depends on what these freaks decide with internet regulating
bonafide: an EMP can take out all of btc.. can't take out gold
kakobrekla: we have paper wallets
kakobrekla: all we need is paper blockchain
kakobrekla: one motherfuckin huge QR code
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: emp can not take out btc
mircea_popescu: in fact, we could hash on slave labour if need be.
mircea_popescu: btc can be implemented to work over carrier pigeons tcp/ip stack reimplementation
mircea_popescu: with shaved headed monks doing the hashing by candlelight.
mircea_popescu: it's really 1100 cluny tech.
bonafide: haha
pigeons: ;;google logopolis
gribble: Logopolis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logopolis>; Logopolis - TARDIS Index File, the Doctor Who Wiki: <http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Logopolis>; Logopolis Part 1 - Video Dailymotion: <http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9qjrq_logopolis-part-1_shortfilms>
Ukto: Diablo-D3 ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060768 = 2.6258 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 292 @ 0.00060754 = 0.1774 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10773 @ 0.00060648 = 6.5336 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: over 60 ?!
mircea_popescu: Figures released Thursday from the Greece’s statistics office showed unemployment at a record high of 24.8 percent in the third quarter of 2012
mircea_popescu: basically, five people in all of greece still work.
Ukto: heh
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00060668 = 1.6987 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: 90.00000000 BTC for 90 O.BTCUSD.C140T contracts. 90.00000000 BTC for 78 O.BTCUSD.P140T contracts.
Bugpowder: ???
Ukto: ...
Ukto: now that forum dick is chaning the emotes on posts in his own thread
Bugpowder: why the assymtry in the split?
mircea_popescu: well C140 is otm
Bugpowder: ah
Bugpowder: itm+1BTC
mircea_popescu: basically you get 90 btc's worth.
mircea_popescu: which for calls is always 90, but for puts varies with how itm they are
mircea_popescu: if you got 100's you'd have 200 puts or w/e
smickles: idiffs?
mircea_popescu: the diff futures
smickles: wha? when?
mircea_popescu: lol smickles. blink and you miss mpex news
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/further-futures-on-mpex/
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/high-finance-falootin/
smickles: ooooh, these look fun. I was dissapointed to see the diff options go just as I had figured out how to profit on them
smickles: third wednesday?
mircea_popescu: imm dates
mod6: I was uber busy today too, just got a chance to finally look at these :)
mircea_popescu: :p
smickles: this is like risk²
mircea_popescu: yes, they're very risky.
mircea_popescu: esp the far out one
smickles: :D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2911 @ 0.00061218 = 1.7821 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but hey, with great risk comes great reward. you could in principle make ~70x your money in a year-ish
mircea_popescu: which is like... 4% a week ?
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1.04**52
gribble: 7.68658870733
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1.038**52
gribble: 6.95444349219
mircea_popescu: something like that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 280 @ 0.0040975 = 1.1473 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 20 @ 0.0067 = 0.134 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lol aaand highest growth % goes to bvps
Namjies: hmm, the 20 is my fault. And that was my sale order -.-
Namjies: I wanted those 280 shares and wondered if I'd hit into my own sell order.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 20 * 0.0067 * 0.002
gribble: 0.000268
mircea_popescu: ty for the quarter mbtc!
smickles: alright, i've come up with a fair price for idiff.dec
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: ;;gentime 1
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 1.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3370181.79928, is 458 years, 51 weeks, 5 days, 15 hours, 30 minutes, and 9 seconds
mircea_popescu: is it 3370181 ?
Namjies: Consider the fee a donation. (A decadent ~1/3 of a cent. Don't spend it all in one go!)
smickles: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 212143 | Current Difficulty: 3370181.7992778 | Next Difficulty At Block: 213695 | Next Difficulty In: 1552 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 20 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3146223.08545920 | Estimated Percent Change: -6.64530067389
mircea_popescu: ahh, i nearly forgot, tomorrow the rota starts!
mircea_popescu: a new age in bitcoin bitchslapping!
smickles: really? there's a case to hear?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1410 @ 0.00061218 = 0.8632 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2690 @ 0.00061252 = 1.6477 BTC [+]
smickles: ;;calc 200/[bc,diff]
gribble: 5.93439796164e-05
smickles: ;;calc 200000000/[bc,diff]
gribble: 59.3439796164
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C120N] 1 @ 0.37686567 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: smickles not yet
mircea_popescu: wait a second
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
smickles: ;;calc 2.9*8954
gribble: 25966.6
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.74690, Best ask: 13.74691, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 13.74690, 24 hour volume: 22405.29779859, 24 hour low: 13.46777, 24 hour high: 13.80000, 24 hour vwap: 13.69301 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: 13.69301 * 0.00061252
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 13.69301 * 0.00061252
gribble: 0.0083872424852
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P120N] 1 @ 0.23017945 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: omg creeping in on 10mn
smickles: I'd like to short it, but i dunno
smickles: i'd be like that one guy and netflix or soemthing
mircea_popescu: who ?
mircea_popescu: lol if anyone shorted a week ago they're in pain.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2000 @ 0.00338548 = 6.771 BTC [+]
smickles: Whitney Tilson < mircea_popescu
Ukto: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130754.0
mircea_popescu: so im getting hosed with sa traffic
mircea_popescu: who linked mpex ?
mircea_popescu: smickles amusingly, netflix not mentioned on his wiki page :DF
smickles: also, any miner large enough should be selling an amount of those xdiffs equal to the number 2([easiest shares per minute]*[minutes untill settlement])
mircea_popescu: whoa what ?!
mircea_popescu: how'd you figure that ?
smickles: they should sell at a price which is a little above the current diff
smickles: mircea_popescu: it's simple arbitrage, sell the future, "buy" the shares
smickles: you reap the extrinsic value
mircea_popescu: http://vr-zone.com/articles/lights-out-boeing-creates-the-first-working-emp-bomb/18163.html we need to bomb boeing
mircea_popescu: smickles but you need some block reward factored in
jcpham: hello
smickles: 25*[shares]/[current diff] then
mircea_popescu: except
mircea_popescu: a share is only worth 25/x
smickles: ;;calc 25/[bc,diff]
gribble: 7.41799745205e-06
smickles: that's the current fair pps right now, correct?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1521 @ 0.00060668 = 0.9228 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4629 @ 0.00060648 = 2.8074 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: nah
mircea_popescu: or maybe ?
dub: should be
mircea_popescu: ok so then it's [shares]*25
mircea_popescu: pure and simple ?
smickles: ;;calc (2.9*(25/[bc,diff]))*8968*2
gribble: 0.38584268667
smickles: ;;bc,diff
gribble: 3370181.7992778
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060651 = 2.6207 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6198 @ 0.00060648 = 3.759 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9881 @ 0.00060111 = 5.9396 BTC [-]
smickles: so i should sell about a third of a contract at say 03400000 satoshi
mircea_popescu: smickles : you should post this novel sorcery as a comment in the futures post
bonafide: provigil should be given to everyone
smickles: ;;calc [bc,diff]*1.1
gribble: 3707199.97921
mircea_popescu: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache%3Ahttp://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3484374&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5
mircea_popescu: someone can send me a dump of this ?
smickles: na, .037btc :D
mircea_popescu: for the record, iso name for btc would prolly be xbt or something
mircea_popescu: NOT btc.
smickles: well, when it happens, i may change
mircea_popescu: USD is called about 5 diff things in iso anyway
bonafide: http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/usd-renminbi-futures.html
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060126 = 2.598 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3441 @ 0.00060111 = 2.0684 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: cme are such idiots. who told them e-micro can be 1/10 standard
mircea_popescu: wtf happened to 1/1000
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14455 @ 0.00060111 = 8.689 BTC [-]
bonafide: well it should be interesting
mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/14rk60/private_investigation_on_mtgox/ this is... hm.
bonafide: oh godddd reddit
bonafide: fucking left wing nuts
bonafide: site is pro-socialism
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: they're mostly highschooler/college undergrads/grads
mircea_popescu: what'd you expect ? they need tit.
bonafide: yea.. that's fucking the scariest part
bonafide: how does someone who goes to college
smickles: mircea_popescu: posted. let me know if i've made an ass of myself :D
bonafide: even remotely think socialism is good
bonafide: a friday rally of eur/jpy to 112 would be phenom
smickles: ;;tslb
gribble: Time since last block: 1 minute and 6 seconds
mircea_popescu: smickles proposed an example.
bonafide: what docs does mtgox require?
bonafide: that this guy is bitching about
bonafide: if he's so sure that the site is money laundering scam ran my criminals... why did he attempt to use it in the first place
mircea_popescu: bonafide ids i guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5550 @ 0.00060421 = 3.3534 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00060518 = 3.8732 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.0006123 = 2.2349 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 28175 @ 0.003395 = 95.6541 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 111259 @ 0.0034 = 378.2806 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: !ticker s.dice
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1day: 0.00332218 / 0.00338831 / 0.0034 (176597 shares, 598.37 BTC), 30day: 0.00308319 / 0.00336838 / 0.0034 (2087328 shares, 7,030.92 BTC)
mircea_popescu: http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com/
mircea_popescu: remarkable what small % of moving funds are mtgox trades
Namjies: I'm not really against socialism... at least not for the health/education part. Probably the only thing I approve spending for is education/health. I would not mind helping others for that. Money handouts however...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 671 @ 0.0006123 = 0.4109 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16299 @ 0.00061252 = 9.9835 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2580 @ 0.00061382 = 1.5837 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Namjies the problem with education paid for by other people is that it creates the disrespectful assholes we see today.
smickles: Namjies: is socialism divisible/severable like that?
bonafide: I agree education needs to spending
bonafide: but the teacher unions are ridic
mircea_popescu: i would rather have millions of smart kids die iliterate than billions of idiot kids think it's ok to give their opinions when adults talk.
bonafide: exactly! smickles!
Namjies: How does free education creates those disrespectful assholes?
mircea_popescu: because they don't risk anything. goes to school, doesn't learn, no big deal
bonafide: appropriations are never given where they're given
mircea_popescu: if going to school was an exception, and his only chance out of the slum and something he'd work hard for, it'd be different.
bonafide: you create one social net and then before you know it.. it's like the aids virus
Namjies: You mean college/university free education or primary/high school education?
bonafide: everything has a social safety net
mircea_popescu: i mean primary school.
mircea_popescu: kid must know that if he's kicked out of school that means prison, digging ditches or sucking cock
mircea_popescu: and must know this aged 6.
mircea_popescu: and in general, kids must know they're worthless at a much earlier age than the current system
mircea_popescu: where they imagine they're the king of the world for the first 2-3 decades and then discover they really have no value.
bonafide: hahaha
bonafide: you're awesome
bonafide: love it!
mircea_popescu: the shock is psychologically scarring
mircea_popescu: they need to start with it earlier so it's softer.
bonafide: I'm so sick and tired of this self esteem crap
Namjies: Hmm... that sounds somewhat cliche. I don't see many people acting that way. I might be blind tho.
bonafide: giving awards to make kids feel included
mircea_popescu: Namjies well, we're discussing principle. impossible to attack with anecdote.
Namjies: But I do agree education is quite soft on kids.
mircea_popescu: problem with it being soft on kids is tghat there's nothing they can accomplish anymore.
bonafide: me, living in the US... I see people using depression as a scapegoat
bonafide: fucking... other countries its called hard on your luck.. get over it
smickles: hey, did greece recently issue a fuckload of bonds, then buy them all back at 30% par?
smickles: then issue another fuckload?
bonafide: something like that
mircea_popescu: anyway. that aside health i can see as a function of govt, in many cases. mostly trauma.
bonafide: think Germany gave them the money
mircea_popescu: smickles yes.
smickles: mircea_popescu: genius
Namjies: Regardless, I'd feel better off if even the worst individuals would still get that education. They're already bad enough with it.
mircea_popescu: i was ranting about how the eurozone is not good enough for romania to join earlier.
smickles: in that spirit, who want's to lend me 10000 btc?
mircea_popescu: Namjies no. this devalues education for everyone else.
bonafide: Namjies: the problem is... some people just dont want to learn
mircea_popescu: if anyone can eat pie this devalues my pie.
Namjies: So what? If they can't afford it, don't educate them?
mircea_popescu: exactly.
smickles: I think that means homeschooling
Namjies: I can hardly see how I can expect a 5 year old kid to pay his first year of primary school. The whole costs...
mircea_popescu: not the govt job. if rich people want to pay for their education let them
mircea_popescu: but don't tax for it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12250 @ 0.00061345 = 7.5148 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: if his parents suck he's screwed.
bonafide: social promotions within schools shouldnt exist either
mircea_popescu: this gives parents an incentive to not suck.
bonafide: mircea_popescu: exactly... survival of the fittest
bonafide: instead of weeding out the idiots, now we encourage them to strive
Namjies: Right... so instead of helping the kid into society, exclude it because his parent sucks and don't care.
mircea_popescu: yes.
bonafide: and we get a bunch of half ass dedicated people working, wanting handouts
mircea_popescu: society should be exclusive not inclusive.
mircea_popescu: if it's inclusive i don't want to be part of it
mircea_popescu: you end up stuck with the idiots and then fail.
mircea_popescu: you want to include the peaks not the bottoms.
bonafide: <mircea_popescu> society should be exclusive not inclusive.
bonafide: perfect
bonafide: couldn't have said it better myself
Namjies: I don't see why we should exclude good individuals on behalf their parents are retarded/bad.
mircea_popescu: "good"
mircea_popescu: they're not good if they parents suck.
Namjies: Stupid people don't all breed retards and rich people don't all breed bright individuals.
mircea_popescu: has nopthing to do with good.
mircea_popescu: intelligence is just part of the pie.
Namjies: Same goes for just about anything else.
mircea_popescu: no.
mircea_popescu: good is not unrelated, randomly occuring, fallen from the sky
mircea_popescu: good is worked and sweated towards.
mircea_popescu: no sweat, no good.
Namjies: Yes, but the 6 year old has no means to pay the costs of his education, even if he was a potent individual and was willing to.
mircea_popescu: convince me he is and i might pay it.
mircea_popescu: but don't assume he is for me and expect i give you the money.
mircea_popescu: a fine example : i made a contest on my blog, for peopel to write fiction. reward was 5btc minimum + up to 100
bonafide: mircea_popescu: I have an idea
Namjies: Hmm, such a thing would be impossible. We couldn't have a standard procedure to determine the desrving ones if each member of the society wanted that they personally approve of said person.
mircea_popescu: of the thousands of people who saw it and hundred+ that talked to me about it, i got 3 submissions.
bonafide: Namjies can self impose an 80% tax on himself
bonafide: so that he can support the kiddies
mircea_popescu: why ? cause people were busy dickingaround on facebook ? fuck that.
mircea_popescu: and the procedure SHOULD NOT be standard.
mircea_popescu: why standard? whoever has the money makes the rules.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.0006071 = 2.6233 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4650 @ 0.0006074 = 2.8244 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8279 @ 0.00061382 = 5.0818 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: that is the very point of money : they who have it are smarter than you, and you should listen to them.
pigeons: jessica simpson has money
bonafide: the problem is now... even the people who aren't smart have money
Namjies: That seems innacurate.
mircea_popescu: pigeons bonafide only because of the current state sponsored moral hazard
smickles: Namjies: http://blog.smickles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Shoes_header.jpg
bonafide: I know
mircea_popescu: sure, let's tax 50% of society and give it out to the worst least worthy recipients
bonafide: but it's a vicous cycle
mircea_popescu: then wonder why "stars" have money
mircea_popescu: well, cause you pump money into a cesspool.
mircea_popescu: money you stole.
mircea_popescu: if taxes were a reasonable 0.08% i guarantee you jessica simpson would be back to waitressing.
Namjies: Idiots get their hands on vast amount of money. Most often from more intelligent parents. Those idiots also tend to damage their heritage badly.
mircea_popescu: or w/e she does "profesionally"
bonafide: just look at the NFL, NBA
bonafide: they get multi-million dollar contracts
mircea_popescu: Namjies that problem is purely theoretical these days.
bonafide: and are just as broke as they were before when their careers end
mircea_popescu: bonafide yes, because the foodstamp fed multitudes have discretionary spending.
mircea_popescu: and i guess now i'm the go to rightest-wing guy in btc huh.
Namjies: Ah, but those idiots who make stars rich still have money. That means they either work or get handouts. If we abolish handouts, then that would happen regardless.
bonafide: nope
bonafide: I agree
mircea_popescu: Namjies if the money they spent came from their work it'd at least be defensible.
mircea_popescu: as in, music doesn't suck today, it's just i have divergent tastes to the world.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3750 @ 0.00061366 = 2.3012 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1637 @ 0.00338548 = 5.542 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1350 @ 0.00336315 = 4.5403 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 313 @ 0.00336178 = 1.0522 BTC [-]
Namjies: What about public infrastructure? Acceptable to fall on government's desk?
mircea_popescu: Namjies im pretty sure if given the same revenue (80% gas accise + car tax + etc) the public sector would be doing a much better job with roads
mircea_popescu: but this point is amply debatable because in fact large projects require large agents and at that size the diff between govt and corporation is mostly academic
mircea_popescu: the principles informing decisions are more important than the exact incorporation form.
mircea_popescu: but look here : Sarah Ford, age 20, NY
mircea_popescu: “I'm a young and involved activist about to start my double major in environmental studies and politics, and I'm very, very angry about what is going on in this country. I blame this country's problems on the exploitations of corporations and a blind worship of the "free market" and "self-regulating capitalism" (Tell me, how does that work again? Oh yeah, it doesn’t morons). Following the deregulation of the banki
mircea_popescu: ng sector and the repeal of Glass-Steagall (the financial regulation act that would have prevented the financial crisis), this country has gone down the drain.
mircea_popescu: this stupidcunt thinks she may have political opinions ? aged 20 ?
mircea_popescu: jesus god.
mircea_popescu: kids that aren't beaten enough develop this very superficial "we know shit" conviction, and then the result is btctalk lending & usagi financial expertise.
bonafide: mircea_popescu for president
mircea_popescu: nah.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 571 @ 0.00061366 = 0.3504 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13041 @ 0.00061382 = 8.0048 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8488 @ 0.00061443 = 5.2153 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: just buy my stock lol
Namjies: Hmm. Again a bit cliche example.
mircea_popescu: which one ?
Namjies: The quoted one.
mircea_popescu: if it weren't so prevalent...
mircea_popescu: we've taken things too far. much too far. sure, confidence is a good thing, kids were opressed 50 years ago etc. but by now it's way overdone.
mircea_popescu: way, way overdone. college mostly consists of elderly people asking kids what they think. who the fuck cares what 20yos think ? they're dumb as rocks by the very definition.
Namjies: I've seen high-school/college level teachers having such teachings.
mircea_popescu: i mean, it works once a semester or something. but it can not be the whole curricula.
Namjies: I'm all for government having certain responsibilities. Others don't or want different responsibilities.
mircea_popescu: name one responsibility govt has ?
mircea_popescu: and then name one govt person who got into any sort of trouble for fucking up.
Namjies: It depends on the government... not all governments have the same responsibilities.
mircea_popescu: ya well...
Namjies: I was about to say, don't it all boil down to what priorities each individual has and what they are consequently willing or not willing to pay/be taxed for?
mircea_popescu: in all times and places government is this "we'll do our best, expect nothing in return" proposition.
mircea_popescu: this works great if we're a village of 100 people and most of them love the one guy in charge
mircea_popescu: otherwise...
Namjies: Well on that point, everything is easier to manage when it's small. For large country, where those in charge can have a hard time even seeing the consequence of their actions... it messes things up.
Namjies: It's also more complex. It conveniently allows to shift blame on a million other thing.
mircea_popescu: right-o.
mircea_popescu: but you know, just because something is impossible to do (large state) doesn't mean you should try anyway
mircea_popescu: it means you SHOULDNT TRY
Namjies: It might not be impossible... but so far large governments are very inneficient as far as I care.
mircea_popescu: indeed.
mircea_popescu: well, here's it from my pov : we dicked around for 100 years trying to make this welfare state work. it failed, pack it up.
mircea_popescu: i don't mind the experience, really, but it's unconscionable to pretend like it didn't happen.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5244 @ 0.00061443 = 3.2221 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.00061472 = 3.2888 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17306 @ 0.00061539 = 10.6499 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: mircea_popescu Will the reserve requirements for X.IDIFF.MAR be reduced to 0.09777BTC/contract and released to the buyer following the close of this December's future?
Bugpowder: currently it is 0.283/BTC
mircea_popescu: the reserve requirements will be reduced for new contracts, but old contracts will be unchanged
Namjies: And on my point of view, I would like to offer every kid a chance at education regardless of the parent's means as well as health care. That would be purely based from personal priorities.
Bugpowder: how will buyers know if they are getting a contract with a higher limit or not?
Namjies: I however hardly approve cash handouts and I'm saddened by the inneficiency of government at providing.
mircea_popescu: Namjies i would agree, but every deserving kid. it's important.
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder they don't. in case of margins overrun the contracts are awarded proportionally.
mircea_popescu: say there's 90 contracts at margin high, and 10 at margin low
mircea_popescu: say the low margin gets blown
mircea_popescu: everyone gets 10% of contracts liquidated.
Namjies: Yes. I'd approve with the deserving kid part. But there is an issue with that. If we exclude a kid for not making any effort/causing trouble, what do you do?
mircea_popescu: nothing.
Bugpowder: so the loss cap for any futures creator is based on the percentage of new vs. legacy contacts
Bugpowder: contracts
mircea_popescu: um
mircea_popescu: i think we're talking at crosspurposes. yiou mean for future asset buyer or creator.seller ?
Namjies: Well parents can't decide for their children how to act and neither can a kid do for his parent. Left out to the means of parents, kids who would be productive with proper education are left out. If we provide but exclude undeserving kids, but the parent are productive, they're left with a kid to provide for, which would also keep them away from work.
mircea_popescu: Well parents can't decide for their children how to << whart ?! why not ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5911 @ 0.00061539 = 3.6376 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10739 @ 0.0006158 = 6.6131 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: asset creator has a max loss of the difference between the mean collatoral level and the price he sold it for
Bugpowder: right?
Namjies: They can't decide how they act.
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder yes, practically. as far as mpex is concerned at most he gets no collateral back, at best he gets all collateral back.
mircea_popescu: Namjies how they actually act or how they should act ?
Namjies: How they act. They can't control his brain as far as I'm aware.
Namjies: If the children is unwilling to behave regardless of what the parents do.
mircea_popescu: all children are born cowards.
mircea_popescu: an inability to make a kid act exactly the way you want is in general clear proof you're an idiot.
Namjies: There's always exception.
mircea_popescu: sure, but rather rare.
Namjies: Although we could consider that by having a child, you accept this possibility and choose to provide or do something with your child.
Bugpowder: So a price of over 0.097 for the MAR contract is not a guaranteed loss for an asset buyer on the open market, since collateral reqs are at 0.28 right now. Will the buyer be able to know how many contracts are at the low and high level? I imagine that would factor in risk/reward and purchase price calculations
mircea_popescu: Namjies no, we couldn't. having a kid is NOT a contract with the state.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9511 @ 0.0006158 = 5.8569 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7589 @ 0.000616 = 4.6748 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder not other than by watching the market.
mircea_popescu: that aside, i agree the system is imperfect for these reasons, but i see no alternatives.
Bugpowder: just trying to figure it out.... some aspects are opaque
Namjies: A contract with the state? What are you talking about?
mircea_popescu: i mean i guess alternatively i could just shave the collateral each quarter, and return it.
mircea_popescu: that'd make it more fair ? maybe ?
mircea_popescu: Namjies as in, having a kid can not be considered a promise to anything nor an agreement to anything.
Bugpowder: Risk discovery would be easier
Bugpowder: for example, I was going to sell for .0888
mircea_popescu: having a kid is a sovereign right above and beyond any convention, much like breathing.
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder risk discovery would b easyer, but the risk of sudden collapse would be notable.
Bugpowder: but with this collateral scheme, I'm going to sell for over .097 to protect myself.
mircea_popescu: as in, quarter closes, all positions get wiped.
Bugpowder: but the buyer may not realize when the contract was struck
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder im really very much interested in discussing this in depth, i think it's very important.
Bugpowder: what about quarter closes, all margin reqs are reset to the new difficulty with the new multiplyer
mircea_popescu: the risk of collapse.
Bugpowder: anything that drops under that levels gets liquidated
mircea_popescu: suppose diff is above margin then. all positions = wiped.
Bugpowder: yes but that is known and predictable
mircea_popescu: but then we could just have a single 3 month contract that resets
mircea_popescu: no need for 4
Bugpowder: from the current diff level at the settlement date
Namjies: Yes, but if the government discharge a kid from the public system and returns it to it's parents... Wouldn't we consider that parents chose to be responsible? If they can't beat the life out of it/put it in a grinder, they have to do something with it.
mircea_popescu: Namjies who says they can;t ?
Namjies: Hmm, why could they?
mircea_popescu: their kid, their problem.
Namjies: If any parent can, then idiots would be permitted to kill their productive child be interpreting the child correcting their erros as disrespect. They could even kill him just because they feel like it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15704 @ 0.00061336 = 9.6322 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: it comes with it being THEIR kid
mircea_popescu: not yours and not the state's.
Bugpowder: Well there are other variations, like a margin level that is adjusted for all asset creators that reflects the mean of the margin requirements of the population of contracts at time each was struck. This current liquidation value could be displayed on the contract trading page.
Bugpowder: it would then adjust in a smooth manner
Bugpowder: but someone could trigger liquidation with a large order
mircea_popescu: so basically, display the mean collateral per contract ?
Namjies: If kids are property, then every human is property.
mircea_popescu: ya i was gonna say, that's risky.
mircea_popescu: Namjies kids aren't people yet.
mircea_popescu: if they are, then they can fuck and have a beer
Namjies: And as such, if a couple wants slaves, they can manufacture them.
mircea_popescu: if they can't legally have a beer, then don't tell me they're people.
mircea_popescu: and the entire history of positive pop growth over millenia was exactly it : manufacturing slaves.
mircea_popescu: take that away you get negative pop growth
Bugpowder: Well. I gotta sleep. I have put some trial contracts out for sale. If they don't sell by next Weds, I wonder if potential buyers will understand that the contract is not an auto loss for them at my ask.
Namjies: Ah, so being legally allowed to have beer makes humans humans now? That's probably one of the weakest argument I've ever heard you say.
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder why autoloss ?
mircea_popescu: it's 9x innit ?
Namjies: It's not like you would believe the state can choose who can or cannot drink? That doesn't sound like you.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 2.9**3 * 33
gribble: 804.837
Bugpowder: yes
mircea_popescu: o just 80
Bugpowder: but next week
Bugpowder: people will think that any price over .097 is autoloss for MAR
mircea_popescu: Namjies yes, if you don't recognise them some rights then they're slaves.
Bugpowder: due to the new collatoral reqs
Bugpowder: for new contracts
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder an important point here is that i would imagine actual margins being blown to be rare.
mircea_popescu: do you think not so ?
Bugpowder: ha
Bugpowder: i do
Bugpowder: but many people are more optimistic about ASICs than I
Bugpowder: and they are my potential customers
mircea_popescu: this is a point.
Namjies: Hmm, well I don't approve of persons having sovereignty over life and death of any human being, even kids.
mircea_popescu: Namjies me either, but the fact remains once you strip humans of some rights you can't pretend they're still humans.
mircea_popescu: they're not. so, either kids can do what they please or else they're slaves. no synthetic middle of the road so we can argue both ways
Namjies: Well, yes, I would still do. It depends on what you consider "human" however. I'm using it refering to the specy.
Namjies: Not their legal/rights status.
mircea_popescu: i was using it in the social participation sense. citizen.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 887 @ 0.00336178 = 2.9819 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 800 @ 0.00333874 = 2.671 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 346 @ 0.00332218 = 1.1495 BTC [-]
midnightmagic: That's not what the law says..
Namjies: Well I suppose they are indeed not really citizens.
midnightmagic: Kids have fundamental rights, and can sue for emancipation.
midnightmagic: They are only not citizens insofar as they can't vote and aren't held responsible for their own actions.
midnightmagic: But they do have human rights which are inalienable regardless of how old they are.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic we're discussing the philosophy of it rather than the practice.
midnightmagic: Even so.
mircea_popescu: even so what ? you can't have half a whole apple.
mircea_popescu: either it's whole or else it's not.
Namjies: You treat them the same way tho, wether they're half or whole. You treat it as food.
midnightmagic: I eat half an apple all the time.
mircea_popescu: but how you treat something speaks to you
mircea_popescu: not to the thing.
mircea_popescu: hence the distinction between practical (how society treats them) and philosophical (what they are)
midnightmagic: Consensus is a pretty powerful thing. Children are incapacitated people, until they either come into their responsibility, or prove they have it early.
mircea_popescu: consensus is a pretty socialist thing.
midnightmagic: Consensus is what society is.
mircea_popescu: truth is not something that is arrived at by consensus, nor is value.
midnightmagic: Reality is though.
mircea_popescu: nope, reality is not either.
mircea_popescu: and yes, consensus is society, which is what makes it dirty.
mircea_popescu: as a concept.
midnightmagic: If you have 99 people in a room repeating the same thing, the final will, 30% or so of the time, believe it too, even if their eyes tell them differently. Asche's conformity tests.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9786 @ 0.00061336 = 6.0023 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 464 @ 0.00061 = 0.283 BTC [-]
midnightmagic: So, yes, even reality is consensus.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic no. the social representation of reality is consensus
mircea_popescu: which is just a little more circularity.
midnightmagic: When I say "reality" I mean, "What a single human believes is reality." Not the objectively measurable thing itself.
mircea_popescu: the romans were in agreement that they kick ass, just as odoacer marched in.
mircea_popescu: consensus is in general the best tool to identify when you're about to get fucked.
Namjies: But if society is not based on consensus, on what do you propose it be based?
mircea_popescu: Namjies i do not propose society not be based on consensus. i just say we need to understand thinking is an anterior, more important thing than society.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061016 = 2.6365 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1386 @ 0.00061 = 0.8455 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11393 @ 0.00060668 = 6.9119 BTC [-]
Namjies: Quite.
mircea_popescu: and so what society does has no bearing on the thinking side of things.
midnightmagic: That would be a rationalist's point of view. Unfortunately most humans are not rationalists.
mircea_popescu: well... so ?
mircea_popescu: i mean, "society" was in consensus earth is the center of the universe. lalala, big deal.
mircea_popescu: society is here mostly to amuse.
Namjies: But similarly, if consensus is required, how could someone have rights over life and death of another individual, even if only a child?
mircea_popescu: Namjies i don't propose that. i am just pointing out the inconsistency involved.
midnightmagic: Reality is not governed immediately by rational thinking, neither society. Thus, consensus by mass hallucination is what society arises from; more's the pity when the masses have already accepted a certain lesser reality as truth prior to it becoming enshrined in law.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic well if female children are screaming bloody murder...
midnightmagic: :P
midnightmagic: Lots of heat, lots of power consumed in there..
midnightmagic: with giant open-air vents to the outside, and lots of noise at the neighbour's place.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061568 = 2.6604 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7461 @ 0.000616 = 4.596 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2128 @ 0.00061647 = 1.3118 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: why not just get a spot on an industrial zone like sane people
Namjies: Ah. Here, I am simply considering the benefits of protecting individuals on which harm is done. (and not helping someone is not harming him)
mircea_popescu: Namjies not helping someone is not harming him.
Namjies: That's exactly what I said.
mircea_popescu: and i agree.
midnightmagic: I'm pretty sure we have achieved a matched set of priors. :)
Namjies: And for those requesting help, consider case by case wether to or not.
midnightmagic: (narrowly)
mircea_popescu: but in principle, the problem with society is this : no 100% solution will ever exist. so, in general, we need to understand and accept that some kids will get raped, some people will get shot etc. trying to make a system where these are impossible results in an unworkable system
mircea_popescu: they just need to be unproductive.
Namjies: It is often beneficial to help kins if they don't live from your help.
midnightmagic: Harm minimization works wonders..
mircea_popescu: i agree.
mircea_popescu: and i help people all the time. the catch is that i never help people in systematic ways.
mircea_popescu: taxes are bs, nickle to panhandler is bs, tithe in church is bs, these are failure modes.
Namjies: Ah, but perfection is never achievable. Should we not strive for it as much as possible regardless?
mircea_popescu: you gotta double your dime with at least a dime's worth of your intelligence.
midnightmagic: I try to help people..
midnightmagic: I have to find a better way to do it.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic here's an anecdote for you :
Namjies: But yes, people should not be systematically helped, on that I agree.
mircea_popescu: there's very nice farmer markets here. i bought 56 lei worth of smoked cheeses and other nice stuff. there was a beggar there, when he saw my cashroll he got all excited.
mircea_popescu: so i gave the salesgirl 60 and told her to give the guy food worth of the change
mircea_popescu: which he didn't want! he wanted money!
midnightmagic: For a long time I just tried to convince them of a better way to think. That doesn't work, basically ever. The last decade or so I've been trying to refine civil human compassion.
mircea_popescu: so she got to keep it.
midnightmagic: That's not really working so well either.
mircea_popescu: simple game of who gets this euro ? the "needy" or the working ?
midnightmagic: I am not prepared nor financially capable of providing for basic human needs and wants..
midnightmagic: How much is 1 lei worth.. hrm..
mircea_popescu: like 4 to the euro.
midnightmagic: LOL course he didn't want huge volumes of food.
mircea_popescu: actually, excellent food here is incredibly cheap
mircea_popescu: a 1 lb chunk of homesmoked, homemade cheese is like 20
midnightmagic: That's.. where? Romania right?
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: one of the main reasons im here. better food than france, about on par wine, 1/10 the prices.
midnightmagic: $10 for it. That's an okay price, I would pay for that.
mircea_popescu: lol i know people who'd pay 100+
midnightmagic: Do you have good meats there?
mircea_popescu: except you can't import it in the us.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic except beef yeah.
midnightmagic: I've been trying out some nice smoked meats.. shinckenspeck.. what prosciutto wishes it were.
midnightmagic: so delicious.
mircea_popescu: hehehe
midnightmagic: I smoked my own heritage bacon a while back. Did I tell you about that?
mircea_popescu: nope
midnightmagic: Almost burned my house down.
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: then he wonders why police tries to keep an eye on him
mircea_popescu: midnightpublicmenace
midnightmagic: If my Dad hadn't the foresight to insist I keep my BBQ as far away from the house, I would be homeless right now.
midnightmagic: Well. "Homeless."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3572 @ 0.00061647 = 2.202 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6328 @ 0.00061675 = 3.9028 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: and actually ima go have some.
midnightmagic: I ruined the first two sets of pork bellies, and the farmer was so pissed off at me for ruining the mean (even though I'd paid for the damn stuff) she made me butcher the last one myself.
Namjies: Hmm, so we don't really disagree. But at first what you say always seem to point to that your beliefs revolves around an "all for myself" basis where no help/cooperation of any sort is acceptable (and similar with anything else, always seem like an extreme "never".) When in fact you either don't agree with how it's done or how it should be applied or when it's acceptable.
mircea_popescu: if everyone's done dumping the k's of btc on mpex for five minutes
mircea_popescu: Namjies sounds aboutright
Namjies: I often end up wondering, why are we arguing on the topic?
midnightmagic: Namjies: To reveal and align your priors! :-D
Namjies: Ahah...
midnightmagic: And then let Aumann's agreement theorem take over! :-)
Namjies: I always wonder if you willingly make your initial statements seem like an extremist "never" to promote discussion or simply for the sake of keeping it short.
midnightmagic: Oh you mean you and MP specifically.
mircea_popescu: ahh
mircea_popescu: Namjies for the sake of keeping it short
mircea_popescu: and also for the sake of keeping them rare. idiots tend to self-select as they can't cope with it.
Namjies: I would have though so.
Namjies: So... to start another discussion... why was it that you placed such high registration fees on MPEx?
mircea_popescu: because there's no practical way to check people's disposable income.
mircea_popescu: that measure they have irl of qualified investors is pretty smart.
Namjies: And you wanted to keep low cash investors out like the ones on GLBSE.
Namjies: The ones which might have a few shares paid with faucet like websites.
mircea_popescu: i want to keep people unable to meaningfully contribute in the market out of it.
mircea_popescu: meaningfully contribute means of course help with price formation.
mircea_popescu: this has been stated in the inverse, as "keeping drama out"
mircea_popescu: basically it's the same thing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00060689 = 2.6224 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21379 @ 0.00060668 = 12.9702 BTC [-]
Namjies: Ah. But isn't keeping the drama out basically coming out to avoiding certain kind of issued shares like the ones that were allowed on GLBSE? Not the size of investments?
mircea_popescu: i don't think the two are a different thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.00061169 = 0.5505 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3421 @ 0.00061169 = 2.0926 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4439 @ 0.00061174 = 2.7155 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: at the macro level (which is what i do for mpex) you are well advised to use macro tools. a barrier to entry for instance.
mircea_popescu: targeted intervention is usually a bad idea.
Namjies: The way I see it, if they're not good investors, there's not really any incentive to protect them from entering the market. Any purchasing power small or large pressures prices up or down.
Namjies: I suppose this is what coinbr is for tho.
mircea_popescu: for instance, so you understand better that i mean : in the discussion for psychoticboy's asset relisting, mpex got 1 vote, out of like 30.
Namjies: Same as small investors go through a brokerage firm to get a few shares.
mircea_popescu: mpex would never list some asset making 3 btc a month, let alone something as dubious as those were. but it doesn't have to not list it :
mircea_popescu: the people don't want it listed anyway.
mircea_popescu: so it works splendidly.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5161 @ 0.00061174 = 3.1572 BTC [+]
Namjies: Well I see the point of not managing low income assets. Not worth the support. However for traders, there's always trading fees. But to avoid providing tech support to them, keep them out with a large fee. Enters coinbr which acts like a brokerage firm. And requires a monthly fee for having an account and higher trading fees.
Namjies: I suppose considering this, it makes a lot of sense.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with having brokers serving any market niche. irl there's ameritrade and optionsexpress and etc doing online accounts
mircea_popescu: but it has to be brokers serving these markets.
Namjies: Yes.
mircea_popescu: in other words, my core mission still is to equip btc with the weaponry it needs to win the war with fiat. this hasn't and won't change.
mircea_popescu: so just going about that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061432 = 2.6545 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7193 @ 0.00061422 = 4.4181 BTC [-]
Namjies: I often forget you want to manage MPEx as a stock exchange and that the fee I paid is actually to get a "seat" of sort.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: if i call it a stock exchange i actually mean the words.
mircea_popescu: i guess that's rare, but still.
Namjies: It's a small fee although the total capitalization on MPEx is also low. If it keeps going to become one of the major stock exchange for Bitcoins, that "seat" would be quite a good value however.
mircea_popescu: it's "small" only in terms of btc fiat value atm.
Namjies: Indeed.
mircea_popescu: otherwise its a 30 units fee on a 20mn total monetary mass.
mircea_popescu: that'd be a 7mn fee in fiat.
Namjies: Eheh
mircea_popescu: so, as btc goes up (and in no small part because of mpex) the fee scales. is perfect-ish
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061663 = 2.6645 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22963 @ 0.00061675 = 14.1624 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [X.EWTI] 500 @ 0.0614575 = 30.7288 BTC [-]
Namjies: I still disapprove of MPEx not having it's own domain however. Especially because of the dtng board kept on same domain. Although I don't mind it, I know many people with large capital and qualified to participate will be repulsed by that fact. If you recall stating some were more sensitive on the topic in other cultures, like in America, or something to that effect.
mircea_popescu: anyway. total cap on mpex (stocks only) is just about to breach 1mn btc.
mircea_popescu: that's not low by any standards
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2609 @ 0.00061675 = 1.6091 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00061755 = 6.2373 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2580 @ 0.00061834 = 1.5953 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: in fact this is the first online thing of that level. never before was a stock exchange ever had this
mircea_popescu: Namjies i actually was planning to both sell dtng and move mpex
Namjies: Hmm, I would find it interesting to see how people would react to that change.
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: the beauty of how it's designed tho, is that i can run it symultaneously of multiple domains
mircea_popescu: and servers. i don't mean mirror it, i mean actually run it.
Namjies: Ah. Interesting.
mircea_popescu: there's no difference between two diff people loading http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php in their browser and two or the same loading site1/site2 sorta thing
Namjies: Well multiple domain isn't hard. Multiple servers shouldn't be too much hassle either with current cloud/cluster services and virtualization capabilities.
Namjies: Although it does require work.
Namjies: Hmm.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't use the cloud.
mircea_popescu: i dun trust it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7650 @ 0.00061834 = 4.7303 BTC [+]
Namjies: Not quite developed yet. Plus there's data safety concerns using a public cloud. Private cloud would be useful if you need to provide cloud like services for elastic subprojects. Otherwise, for your needs alone for one project, a cluster.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1820 @ 0.00061834 = 1.1254 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10200 @ 0.00061877 = 6.3115 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1680 @ 0.00061914 = 1.0402 BTC [+]
Namjies: I also want to see what bitcointalk's trolls would then find to it. Other than that you're romanian. Complaining based on nationality...
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: it was a fine exercise so far, wasn't it.
mircea_popescu: anyway, im off to town for a little. catch you later a bit.
Namjies: That the fee is too damn high would probably be the only remaining complaint.
Namjies: Well goodbye then.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9420 @ 0.00061914 = 5.8323 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6730 @ 0.00061916 = 4.1669 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3600 @ 0.00061549 = 2.2158 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 808 @ 0.00061916 = 0.5003 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4992 @ 0.00061923 = 3.0912 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 721 @ 0.00061549 = 0.4438 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15829 @ 0.00061514 = 9.7371 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061909 = 2.6751 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6208 @ 0.00061923 = 3.8442 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5871 @ 0.00061952 = 3.6372 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7013 @ 0.00061952 = 4.3447 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3400 @ 0.0006198 = 2.1073 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10376 @ 0.00062079 = 6.4413 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00061536 = 2.659 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5371 @ 0.00061514 = 3.3039 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17230 @ 0.00061422 = 10.583 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 416 @ 0.00061422 = 0.2555 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1850 @ 0.00061321 = 1.1344 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3597 @ 0.00060815 = 2.1875 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00062075 = 2.6823 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2274 @ 0.00062079 = 1.4117 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8392 @ 0.00062132 = 5.2141 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 762 @ 0.00062188 = 0.4739 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5188 @ 0.00062188 = 3.2263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2350 @ 0.00062197 = 1.4616 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2612 @ 0.00062222 = 1.6252 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1442 @ 0.00332218 = 4.7906 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00062222 = 4.1689 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.00062197 = 14.1498 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00061875 = 1.2375 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: I need to quit sleeping so much
Ukto: lol
Ukto: u were asleep again?
Ukto: you should look at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130754.0 ... :P
Diablo-D3: Ukto: meh, I dunno
Ukto: lol
Diablo-D3: I just didnt feel like being awake again
Ukto: i know that feeling
Ukto: wokring from home, and keeping my own schedual.. sometimes you just want another day to pass by before getting back up
Ukto: schedule*
Diablo-D3: Ukto: btw, re: that bitfunder thread
Diablo-D3: shouldnt that be 4 slots?
Diablo-D3: dmc already took the first one I thought
Ukto: LOL
Ukto: Put it in the thread and I'll mark it down. ;)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2900 @ 0.00061875 = 1.7944 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15831 @ 0.00061875 = 9.7954 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8700 @ 0.00061872 = 5.3829 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10849 @ 0.00060876 = 6.6044 BTC [-]
Ukto: wow, gald you put alot of details for ppl :P
Ukto: you make a great example. :P
Ukto: I guess I will fill it in for you
Diablo-D3: Ukto: I approach forums the way I approach perl
Ukto: "My understanding is the plan for DMC to continue trading and paying out dividends and plan to try to buy back the shares over time. Right?"
Ukto: Diablo-D3: As little interaction as possible?
Ukto: :P
Diablo-D3: bingo
Diablo-D3: Ukto: and no, no paying of dividends
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9222 @ 0.00060876 = 5.614 BTC [-]
Ukto: 0,o
Ukto: Will the shares be worth anyone else really buying then?
Diablo-D3: depends entirely how much they pay for them
Ukto: I guess thats true...
Diablo-D3: if you take the first half of shares I bought back as an aggregate, people made back more than they originally invested already
Ukto: ah
Diablo-D3: not all shares were sold for 1BTC, even though that was originally the plan and trolls keep bringing that up
Diablo-D3: DMC raised closer to 2k, not 20k
Ukto: sucks :/
Diablo-D3: well, the market was shitting itself and I was trying to get a much larger stake of it
Diablo-D3: in the end nobody won
Ukto: you should pass my troll tag idea to theymos... Let ppl donate btc towards people getting TROLL tagged... if it hits 10btc they get tagged... :P
Diablo-D3: 10? try 50.
Ukto: no
Ukto: 50 gets you Super Troll
Ukto: 100 is Epic Troll
Diablo-D3: fuck, I'd be epic troll by the end of the week
Ukto: :P
Ukto: see? would make theymos happy
Ukto: LOL
Diablo-D3: but I'm a forum mod :<
Ukto: told psycho he needs to set his title to 'Staff Troll'
Ukto: :P
Ukto: or Troll Moderator
Ukto: could mean either way
Ukto: :P
Ukto: for the discussion boards I am putting on BF... I am requirng ppl to have a linked weex account to post. :P
Ukto: (most will need that anyways)
Ukto: oh
Ukto: did you already tell the shareholders there would be no divvies paid out?
Ukto: can already imagine ppl throwing a fit if not
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 929 @ 0.00060876 = 0.5655 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7703 @ 0.00060668 = 4.6733 BTC [-]
Ukto: thats how it was for the first half of the buyback right?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4863 @ 0.00060913 = 2.9622 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14554 @ 0.00061902 = 9.0092 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1183 @ 0.00062222 = 0.7361 BTC [+]
Ukto: ahh, guess the buyback started the day before/of the shutdown, or therebouts
Ukto: *Reading thread*.. dont see anything about no divs.. :/
Ukto: still reading tho
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13205 @ 0.00062222 = 8.2164 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9822 @ 0.00062241 = 6.1133 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3073 @ 0.00062256 = 1.9131 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4479 @ 0.00060668 = 2.7173 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12796 @ 0.00060668 = 7.7631 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22404 @ 0.00060667 = 13.5918 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4196 @ 0.00060667 = 2.5456 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18450 @ 0.00060488 = 11.16 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18204 @ 0.00060371 = 10.9899 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00060966 = 9.2059 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130795.0
Diablo-D3: bam
Diablo-D3: Ukto: yes, they're already aware of no dividends
Diablo-D3: there was a shareholder vote on it to do it for a limited time, then nefario locked my glbse account and tried to use his attempted removal of me as ceo as a cover for his bullshit
Diablo-D3: Ukto: theres no dividends to pay anyhow
Diablo-D3: dividends were generated from the mining assets we had while I was trying to save up the money to kick off the rest of the plan
Diablo-D3: ever since glbse went down, no one has been able to pay dividends
Diablo-D3: thus, theres no dividends to pay
Ukto: ah
Ukto: Diablo-D3: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102181.msg1399421#msg1399421
Ukto: 0,0
Diablo-D3: er, what am I reading?
Ukto: oh, er
Ukto: was just my comments on somoene moaning over BF's tos
Ukto: which is the only one that hhas a promise to the users, instead of nothing at all
Diablo-D3: heh
Ukto: its like star wars.. lets vote for to turn the republic into an empire! yay!
Ukto: ...
Ukto: it sounds prettier!
Ukto: :P
Diablo-D3: anyhow
Diablo-D3: I think luke'll shut up now
Diablo-D3: fucking retard
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00060969 = 2.6217 BTC [+]
Graet: gl with that Diablo-D3 :)
Diablo-D3: I think I need food
Diablo-D3: all this countertrolling (ie, countering of trolls) has made me hungry
Ukto: amended: "Also, I noticed that you have never posted in the GSDPT thread before, other than to +1 btct. It just made me curious if you happen to own any shares of GSDPT?"
Ukto: -_-
Ukto: i think thats what I just did. countertrolled
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2250 @ 0.00060966 = 1.3717 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10696 @ 0.00060578 = 6.4794 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5918 @ 0.00060578 = 3.585 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 696 @ 0.00060371 = 0.4202 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8931 @ 0.0006027 = 5.3827 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1655 @ 0.00060257 = 0.9973 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3428 @ 0.00060969 = 2.09 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00061451 = 5.5306 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9772 @ 0.00061639 = 6.0234 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3172 @ 0.00060734 = 1.9265 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14400 @ 0.00060729 = 8.745 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2250 @ 0.0006066 = 1.3649 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39756 @ 0.00060734 = 24.1454 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9742 @ 0.0006179 = 6.0196 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14027 @ 0.00062256 = 8.7326 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7075 @ 0.00062258 = 4.4048 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14035 @ 0.00062098 = 8.7155 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3365 @ 0.00062258 = 2.095 BTC [+]
Ukto: fwiw: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102181.msg1399481#msg1399481
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00061506 = 13.5313 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10363 @ 0.0006066 = 6.2862 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2717 @ 0.00060944 = 1.6558 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5283 @ 0.00062258 = 3.2891 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16829 @ 0.00062258 = 10.4774 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3071 @ 0.00062272 = 1.9124 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2100 @ 0.0032948 = 6.9191 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1034 @ 0.0032948 = 3.4068 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1575 @ 0.00328789 = 5.1784 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1900 @ 0.0006164 = 1.1712 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18000 @ 0.0006164 = 11.0952 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17096 @ 0.00061562 = 10.5246 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3725 @ 0.00061398 = 2.2871 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 3650 @ 0.00330342 = 12.0575 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 600 @ 0.0033178 = 1.9907 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00061488 = 3.5048 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2169 @ 0.00061398 = 1.3317 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30050 @ 0.00060912 = 18.3041 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 400 @ 0.00060912 = 0.2436 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1987 @ 0.0006066 = 1.2053 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7313 @ 0.00060564 = 4.429 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13187 @ 0.00060564 = 7.9866 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5213 @ 0.00060502 = 3.154 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9609 @ 0.00060502 = 5.8136 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2799 @ 0.00060257 = 1.6866 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3692 @ 0.00060213 = 2.2231 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14250 @ 0.00060499 = 8.6211 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6233 @ 0.00060499 = 3.7709 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4667 @ 0.00060286 = 2.8135 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1083 @ 0.00060286 = 0.6529 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2700 @ 0.00060262 = 1.6271 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12408 @ 0.00060213 = 7.4712 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4059 @ 0.00060154 = 2.4417 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23591 @ 0.00060154 = 14.1909 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1909 @ 0.00060111 = 1.1475 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17516 @ 0.00060985 = 10.6821 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8034 @ 0.00060985 = 4.8995 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3210 @ 0.00061054 = 1.9598 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4190 @ 0.00061054 = 2.5582 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2210 @ 0.00061063 = 1.3495 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22400 @ 0.00060922 = 13.6465 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6632 @ 0.0006083 = 4.0342 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20129 @ 0.00061063 = 12.2914 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6422 @ 0.00061262 = 3.9342 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 291 @ 0.00061602 = 0.1793 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12068 @ 0.0006083 = 7.341 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4532 @ 0.0006048 = 2.741 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00060639 = 10.248 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9909 @ 0.00061602 = 6.1041 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.0006164 = 2.8046 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9329 @ 0.00062272 = 5.8094 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13095 @ 0.0006233 = 8.1621 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5705 @ 0.0006233 = 3.5559 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00062351 = 14.3407 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18495 @ 0.00062357 = 11.5329 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6255 @ 0.00062357 = 3.9004 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17745 @ 0.00062422 = 11.0768 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22064 @ 0.00062215 = 13.7271 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 136 @ 0.00062215 = 0.0846 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3164 @ 0.00061602 = 1.9491 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3850 @ 0.00062422 = 2.4032 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5705 @ 0.00062422 = 3.5612 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1745 @ 0.00062706 = 1.0942 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9878 @ 0.00061602 = 6.085 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4525 @ 0.00061368 = 2.7769 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10293 @ 0.00061015 = 6.2803 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15884 @ 0.00062706 = 9.9602 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22075 @ 0.00060319 = 13.3154 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10900 @ 0.00060316 = 6.5744 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9319 @ 0.00060111 = 5.6017 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4396 @ 0.00060093 = 2.6417 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 558 @ 0.0033178 = 1.8513 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8600 @ 0.00061934 = 5.3263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8500 @ 0.00061967 = 5.2672 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00062706 = 2.0693 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.00061154 = 8.4393 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15700 @ 0.00060802 = 9.5459 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00060556 = 12.1718 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13129 @ 0.00060489 = 7.9416 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1600 @ 0.0034 = 5.44 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00060635 = 5.0933 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00061634 = 6.1634 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00061634 = 3.0817 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00060635 = 1.6978 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6621 @ 0.00060489 = 4.005 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11311 @ 0.00060459 = 6.8385 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1345 @ 0.00060318 = 0.8113 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: sooo what's up today
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11250 @ 0.00060318 = 6.7858 BTC [-]
gigavps: i'm starting to think the scam accusations section of the forums is getting over used
gigavps: but what do i know..
mircea_popescu: who now ?
mircea_popescu: i recall piuk getting hit for $6.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9622 @ 0.00060318 = 5.8038 BTC [-]
PsychoticBoy: I think you are right gigavps
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15150 @ 0.00061767 = 9.3577 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11600 @ 0.00062226 = 7.2182 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1600 @ 0.00062226 = 0.9956 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16050 @ 0.00061724 = 9.9067 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4383 @ 0.00060318 = 2.6437 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4340 @ 0.00060225 = 2.6138 BTC [-]
midnightmagic: yeah, right.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16350 @ 0.00060225 = 9.8468 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: the bfl thing is beyond incredible.
mircea_popescu: i have never heard of such a thing.
mircea_popescu: in other news : SD Profit before fees: 30628.62760334 BTC (2.055%)
mircea_popescu: holy shit they're going to post +14k at this rate.
jcpham: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213
jcpham: link me to this new bfl drama
jcpham: don't make me read up in the buffer
mircea_popescu: jcpham 1 second
mircea_popescu: let the girl post first.
jcpham: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89902.0
jcpham: that one?
mircea_popescu: nah
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.00061881 = 3.2178 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10210 @ 0.00060225 = 6.149 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4054 @ 0.00060093 = 2.4362 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2636 @ 0.00060054 = 1.583 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jcpham https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129566.msg1400034#msg1400034
jcpham: i tried to read it but I was staring at her avatar the whole time
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3351 @ 0.00060054 = 2.0124 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: good plan.
smickles: mircea_popescu: see comment
smickles: and I typo'd "If" into "I" :(
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10414 @ 0.00060775 = 6.3291 BTC [+]
smickles: Ya know, If I really had confidence in that formula, I would sell a crapload of futures based on the projected costs of a farm and equipment and use the btc to buy a farm and equipment
smickles: to quote the owl, "let's find out"
Diablo-D3: smickles: heh
smickles: using a single BFL product as an example
Diablo-D3: smickles: well
Diablo-D3: if I wanted to be a fucking dick
Diablo-D3: I'd sell futures and then take the money and buy lots of mining hardware
smickles: oh?
Diablo-D3: and then no matter what happens, I end up with lots of cash
smickles: how's that being a dick?
smickles: if you sell at the right price, that is a good move
Diablo-D3: I dunno
Diablo-D3: Im trying to figure out how to turn other peoples money into my money without betting
smickles: Diablo-D3: i'm talking about this formula: I believe that any sufficiently large miner can make relatively safe profits by selling these contracts in an amount derived by the following formula:
smickles: ([easiest difficulty shares per minute] * ([current block reward] / [current difficulty])) * [minutes until settlement] * 2
smickles: They should sell at a price per contract greater than the projected expenses for the time period divided by the number of contracts.
smickles: The amount received in excess of projected expenses should be risk free profit. Which, btw, is received in advance of the work being done. Which enables the miner to buy more equipment and repeat the process.
Diablo-D3: smickles: _huh_
Diablo-D3: smickles: so do me a favor
smickles: Diablo-D3: that formula might work for you, if you know shares per minute and projected costs
Diablo-D3: plug the current numbers into that
smickles: I have
Diablo-D3: whats the number
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1286 @ 0.00060775 = 0.7816 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1300 @ 0.00060716 = 0.7893 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4703 @ 0.00060054 = 2.8243 BTC [-]
smickles: well, what's a good number for cost per Gh?
smickles: (per month)
Diablo-D3: hrm, well
Diablo-D3: per month? what, electricity or what?
smickles: electricity and proportional equipment cost
Diablo-D3: okay, so we're working with a 2 year pay off number or what?
smickles: based on a 5970 and the internet i came up with .3 btc per Gh per month
smickles: how does that sound?
Diablo-D3: on 5xxx or 69xx or 7xxx thats roughly, eh
smickles: a 2yr payoff is ideas, as that would equate to tax depreciation
smickles: *ideal
Diablo-D3: like, my 7970 does 675 mhash overclocked
mircea_popescu: thanks smickles
Diablo-D3: [01:59:09] <gribble> The expected generation output, at 675.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3370181.79928, is 0.100726636919 BTC per day and 0.00419694320496 BTC per hour.
smickles: anyway, if my estimate is near enough to correct, the formula says that a miner with 30Gh/s and .3btc/Gh/month costs would break even selling 54 contracts at 0.03322320 btc each
Diablo-D3: smickles: lets say $380 for the 7970, btw
smickles: Diablo-D3: so they should probably sell at .034 or .035ish
smickles: Diablo-D3: let me help you get into the proper mindset, it's not 380 USD it's 27.5 btc
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11110 @ 0.00060054 = 6.672 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5452 @ 0.00060027 = 3.2727 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: so 4.444~ btc per 30 day month per 1gh, $562.96 per 1gh
Diablo-D3: !ticker
assbot: Provide ticker.
Diablo-D3: er
Diablo-D3: ;ticker
mircea_popescu: lol
Diablo-D3: fucking gribble
Diablo-D3: [02:02:17] <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.50006, Best ask: 13.60400, Bid-ask spread: 0.10394, Last trade: 13.50005, 24 hour volume: 51438.51375095, 24 hour low: 13.31012, 24 hour high: 13.90119, 24 hour vwap: 13.69112
smickles: Diablo-D3: 27.5 btc is your cost per Gh per month?
Diablo-D3: smickles: no, to buy
Diablo-D3: 4.444~ btc generated per 30 day month per 1gh, 41.7 btc per 1gh to buy
Diablo-D3: and electricity is eh
smickles: that's about 1.14/month equipment costs
Diablo-D3: gotta figure out the power usage
Diablo-D3: and btw, that doesnt include the cost of the rigs
Diablo-D3: so theres going to be a cost per 7 of those
Diablo-D3: plus an additional 50 watts
Diablo-D3: so lets say 300 watts per overclocked 7970
Diablo-D3: or 444.444~ watts per 1gh
Diablo-D3: or 0.0533328 cents per 1gh per hour
mircea_popescu: you want btc/month
Diablo-D3: or $38.3999616 per 30 day month
Diablo-D3: or 2.84 btc per month per 1gh
smickles: crap mircea_popescu I forgot to specify that I was talkign about the idiff.dec
mircea_popescu: lol so add
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00060871 = 8.8263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3250 @ 0.00061129 = 1.9867 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: smickles: so....
smickles: one sec D
Diablo-D3: 41.7 / 24 = 1.74, then 2.84 per month in power usage
mircea_popescu: seems my 1btc/gh/month was under smickles. not .3 but 3.
mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 does it even make it back, the 2.84 ?
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: well
Diablo-D3: no.
Diablo-D3: 1.74 + 4.58 = 4.58
smickles: ack, well, the high price certainly fits the volatility
Diablo-D3: well, remember, this is with gpus
Diablo-D3: and remember, the price is even worse
smickles: also, who's going to buy a 79XX now
Diablo-D3: you're looking at roughly $200 per 7 of those plus another 50 watts
Diablo-D3: actually, lets just say $250
Diablo-D3: smickles: but yeah
Diablo-D3: now
Diablo-D3: lets do asics
Diablo-D3: and not bfl ones
Diablo-D3: lets take avalon
Diablo-D3: 66gh, 400w, $1300
Diablo-D3: so 1.45 btc per gh, 6.06 watt per gh
Diablo-D3: 0.06 btc per gh per month over 2 years
smickles: and, is that 838 shares per minute?
Diablo-D3: 0.039 btc per month electricity
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13750 @ 0.00061129 = 8.4052 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5318 @ 0.0006129 = 3.2594 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: smickles: hrm, what kind of shares? diff 1 shares?
Diablo-D3: so 0.099 btc per gh.
smickles: yeah, diff 1 shares
Diablo-D3: per month, operating costs
Diablo-D3: smickles: well
Diablo-D3: that math is constant
Diablo-D3: it takes 4.295 seconds to go through the entire 2**32 space
Diablo-D3: there is, on average, 1 diff 1 share per 2**32
Diablo-D3: so you pay 0.099 btc per month to get 603492 shares.
thestringpuller: smickle
smickles: so that's 257 shares per minute then?
thestringpuller: sir smickles the bitoin certified accountant, i have idea for you
thestringpuller: premise for my thing
Diablo-D3: smickles: erm dude, 60 / 4.295 = 14
thestringpuller: ;;calc 60/4.295
gribble: 13.9697322468
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2282 @ 0.0006129 = 1.3986 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11818 @ 0.00061899 = 7.3152 BTC [+]
smickles: oh what did i do then?
Diablo-D3: I dont know.
jcpham: 3GH/s is ~40-43 shares per minute
smickles: input error
jcpham: dunno about asic
Diablo-D3: jcpham: no
Diablo-D3: it has nothing to do with hardware
smickles: thestringpuller: Oh?
Diablo-D3: you get 1 share per 2**32 hashes
mircea_popescu: http://mpex.co/ <<
thestringpuller: yessir. I see you are busy with the people from blizzard
Diablo-D3: 2**32 / 1000000000 = seconds it takes at 1gh to deplete the range
jcpham: well my equipment has done 40-43 shares/minute
jcpham: for 18 months
jcpham: @ 3GH/s
Diablo-D3: jcpham: no, Im saying, it has nothing to do with hardware
smickles: mircea_popescu: so it turns out my assumptions were way off
mircea_popescu: aha ?
Diablo-D3: jcpham: and 14 * 3 = 42.
Diablo-D3: jcpham: so you're right in the right range
jcpham: 41.31 according to my stats
smickles: mircea_popescu: or Diablo-D3 facts are way off
mircea_popescu: i doubt that lol
Diablo-D3: smickles: I wrote a miner ;)
Diablo-D3: you can check my math though
jcpham: i understand what you are saying Diablo-D3
smickles: heh, (my last statement was humor ;)
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 1300 / 66 / 13.50
gribble: 1.45903479237
jcpham: I cannot wait until this asic shit materializes
mircea_popescu: or should i say
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 1300 / 66 / 13.50 / 24
gribble: 0.0607931163487
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell namjies mpex.co
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1382 @ 0.00061899 = 0.8554 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: that many btc per month for 2 years per gh
smickles: hey, how come cgminer tell me that i get 3 shares per minute on 200Mh/s?
jcpham: 200 MH/s might be 3 shares/min
jcpham: stales
jcpham: depends on where you are submitting shares
jcpham: and whether they are all accepted or not
Diablo-D3: smickles: 1000mh / 200 = 5, 4.295 * 5 = 21.475 seconds
Diablo-D3: or roughly 2.79 shares per minute
Diablo-D3: so it seems to be right
Diablo-D3: anyhow, back to my math
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 400 / 66
gribble: 6.06060606061
Diablo-D3: that many watts per gh
jcpham: coinlab pps is still keeping me paid
smickles: and 60 Gh/s is only 14 shares per minute?
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 0.12 / 1000 * 6.06060606061 / 13.50 * 24 * 30
gribble: 0.0387878787879
jcpham: better than diff/block reward
jcpham: that's for sure
Diablo-D3: that many btc per month for electricity per gh
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 0.0387878787879 + 0.0607931163487
gribble: 0.0995809951366
Diablo-D3: total cost of ownership over 24 month period.
Diablo-D3: per month.
smickles: ok, Diablo-D3 tell me straight, how many diff 1 shares per minute does 66 Gh/s expect to produce?
Diablo-D3: smickles: well, if 1gh does 14 per minute, its 14 * 66
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3518 @ 0.00061983 = 2.1806 BTC [+]
jcpham: i agree with what Diablo-D3 said. armchair math
jcpham: ;;calc 14*66
gribble: 924
Diablo-D3: [02:28:11] <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 3370181.79928, is 0.149224647288 BTC per day and 0.00621769363698 BTC per hour.
jcpham: ;;calc 25/[bc,diff]
gribble: 7.41799745205e-06
smickles: Diablo-D3: and the cost per Gh per month you figured?
jcpham: ;;calc 924*.00000741
gribble: 0.00684684
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 0.149224647288 * 30
gribble: 4.47673941864
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 4.47673941864 - 0.0995809951366
gribble: 4.3771584235
Diablo-D3: thats your profit per month per gh
smickles: ok, profit less revenue :P
Diablo-D3: smickles: hrm?
Diablo-D3: btw, I did that math using 12 cents per kwh
Diablo-D3: you'll have to substitute your own in for serious math
Namjies: Still no one in here willing to lend me 100 BTC I presume?
Diablo-D3: US depending on where you live is usually between 8 and 12 for residential
Diablo-D3: now lets say diff increases 100x
Diablo-D3: you'll still be making 0.4476 per month and paying out 0.099 per month
Diablo-D3: er that was 10x
Diablo-D3: hrm
Diablo-D3: if diff increases 100x, you're fucked
smickles: Diablo-D3: the idea is to factor out the diff changes
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 4.47673941864 / 0.0995809951366
gribble: 44.9557610114
mircea_popescu: smickles tbh i always thought miner wants to buy diff nto sell it.
Diablo-D3: diff cant increase more than that in the first 24 months
jcpham: i have at least 6 weeks of 0.00012427 US DOLLARS PER SHARE left at coinlab
jcpham: maybe asic will be here by then
Diablo-D3: ;;calc 4.47673941864 / 0.0387878787879
gribble: 115.415938137
Diablo-D3: diff cant increase that after 24 months
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00060837 = 6.2662 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: smickles: so how much would you be selling the futures for?
Diablo-D3: 4.377 * 2 per gh?
Diablo-D3: smickles: anyhow, I did the hard part of the math for you I think
Diablo-D3: diff can't go above 115x what it is now with btc at 13.50
gigavps: Diablo-D3 you sure?
Diablo-D3: gigavps: this is a profit calculation
jcpham: i think my asic purchase is only profitable for me up to a 30x diff increase
jcpham: after 30x i'm fucked
Diablo-D3: gigavps: with 12 cents a kwh power, and avalon units using 400 watts for 66gh, and btc at $13.50
jcpham: so a diff of 90 mil would end my mining
Diablo-D3: gigavps: 115x is fatal
gigavps: who cares
gigavps: i'll mine
gigavps: i'm married to bitcoin
jcpham: hahaha
Diablo-D3: I think you missed the point.
Diablo-D3: ;;diff
gribble: 3370181.799277837
gigavps: i just said i don't care
gigavps: diff is dropping
gigavps: no one is delivering asics
jcpham: yeah it is
Diablo-D3: 3.37 million diff
gigavps: ;;bc,estimate
gribble: 3043795.00466468
jcpham: predictinator says diff is going down down down
jcpham: until asic exists
gigavps: ;;bc,diffchange
gribble: Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -9.6845456433 % based on data since last change | -15.4954531067 % based on data for last three days
Diablo-D3: so we'd need roughly 388 million diff for avalon to become unprofitable
jcpham: jeez
Diablo-D3: I think I scared smickles
smickles: Diablo-D3: so you said that the cost of equipment and elec. per month per gh was ~.09958?
Diablo-D3: [02:25:27] <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 0.12 / 1000 * 6.06060606061 / 13.50 * 24 * 30
Diablo-D3: [02:25:27] <gribble> 0.0387878787879
Diablo-D3: [02:26:11] <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 0.0387878787879 + 0.0607931163487
Diablo-D3: [02:26:11] <gribble> 0.0995809951366
Diablo-D3: yes.
Diablo-D3: oh and
Diablo-D3: [02:21:36] <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 1300 / 66 / 13.50 / 24
Diablo-D3: [02:21:37] <gribble> 0.0607931163487
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2702 @ 0.00339777 = 9.1808 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: pretty sure I did the math right
jcpham: smickles if you need a partner to operate mining equipment for you...
Diablo-D3: dollars per kwh to watt hour times 6.06 watts convert to btc convert to day convert to month
Diablo-D3: oh and
jcpham: smickles let's create a mining asset and take the bitcoins!
Diablo-D3: [02:24:52] <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 400 / 66
Diablo-D3: [02:24:52] <gribble> 6.06060606061
Diablo-D3: smickles: so thats all the math.
Diablo-D3: smickles: 1300, 66, and 400 are dollars, gh, and watts from the vendor per unit
Diablo-D3: smickles: 0.12 is dollars per kwh
Diablo-D3: smickles: so you should be able to script that easily
smickles: i need to research futures a bit more :o
thestringpuller: mining future
thestringpuller: s
Diablo-D3: ha ha I scared smickles
Diablo-D3: smickles: wait, what was the last you saw?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7350 @ 0.00061517 = 4.5215 BTC [+]
smickles: Diablo-D3: it's not about your numbers, it's about my formula, the delta of diff futures etc
smickles: *delta of diff futures atm
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P200T] 1000 @ 0.60781728 = 607.8173 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P190T] 1000 @ 0.52540165 = 525.4017 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: smickles: ahh
Diablo-D3: see
Diablo-D3: I'd rather go for worst case
Diablo-D3: whats the chances of diff increasing 115x from right now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.00060837 = 3.9544 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19650 @ 0.00060491 = 11.8865 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: abracadabra looks to buy more gpus <<< prolly a safer investment
mircea_popescu: at least they can be sold
jcpham: gpu mining is profitable if you have free power and enough time
jcpham: that time variable just got bigger though
Diablo-D3: yeah, if you have free power, you can just get unlimited gpus
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C140T] 90 @ 0.08471093 = 7.624 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.34640, Best ask: 13.34641, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 13.34640, 24 hour volume: 63684.39592991, 24 hour low: 13.00000, 24 hour high: 13.90119, 24 hour vwap: 13.59704
mircea_popescu: we just lost half a cent
mircea_popescu: dolla
jcpham: down she goes
mircea_popescu: i was like, wtf are ppl buying puts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6232 @ 0.00061517 = 3.8337 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19054 @ 0.00061572 = 11.7319 BTC [+]
smickles: mircea_popescu: did i not chat with you about this happening?
smickles: it touched 13
mircea_popescu: well ya but i dun trust ta any
smickles: :D
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P190T] 1000 @ 0.52536606 = 525.3661 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P200T] 1000 @ 0.60778466 = 607.7847 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: 28k sold seems like, 5+4 5+4 10
smickles: vwap is still 13.59 tho
mircea_popescu: yea
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P140T] 78 @ 0.1599 = 12.4722 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P140T] 922 @ 0.17157857 = 158.1954 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P130T] 1000 @ 0.12227209 = 122.2721 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P150T] 1000 @ 0.23049813 = 230.4981 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3474 @ 0.00060798 = 2.1121 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1546 @ 0.00061572 = 0.9519 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8001 @ 0.00062459 = 4.9973 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18326 @ 0.00060975 = 11.1743 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1239 @ 0.00060491 = 0.7495 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2242 @ 0.00060317 = 1.3523 BTC [-]
smickles: ok, so, when you are mining, are you essentially buying diff, or selling diff by the action of mining?
Diablo-D3: smickles: you're selling a service
smickles: your work pressures the diff to increase, so you are, in effect selling diff
mircea_popescu: when you are mining you are taking virtual diff and turning it into real diff.
Diablo-D3: what your service is worth is a function of diff and btc prices
mircea_popescu: thus it helps to have a supply of already bought virtual diff
smickles: so, i had the move wrong
smickles: if mining is equiv. to selling diff, then buying diff futures nixes it, and any leftover value (the extrinsic value) is profit
Diablo-D3: smickles: what is the future of?
smickles: the difficulty
Diablo-D3: uh
Diablo-D3: how does that work?
smickles: http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=X.IDIFF.DEC
smickles: X.IDIFF.DEC settles in BTC on the third Wednesday of December each year before midnight GMT as equal to the network difficulty then current, truncated to an integer and expressed in satoshi.
mircea_popescu: smickles http://mpex.co?mpsic=X.IDIFF.DEC
smickles: Diablo-D3: ^the relavant part
smickles: er
Diablo-D3: I dont get how that works
smickles: it's worth an amount of satoshis equal to the diff rate on dec 19th at midnight
smickles: so when you mine btc, you are essentially doing the same thing as selling that contract
Diablo-D3: okay so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5749 @ 0.00062459 = 3.5908 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: smickles: okay so wait
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1071 @ 0.00062706 = 0.6716 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6630 @ 0.00062714 = 4.1579 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: if I want to make money
Diablo-D3: I create the futures, sell them, and then mine like no tommorow?
smickles: actually
mircea_popescu: i think you buy them
Diablo-D3: well who creates the futures then?
smickles: anyone
Diablo-D3: because whoever is mining wants to bet the diff will only go up
smickles: oh, who should do it?
mircea_popescu: no, whoever is mining wants to insure against diff going up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7050 @ 0.00061947 = 4.3673 BTC [-]
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: if they're playing the future game?
Diablo-D3: because the more mining hardware they own, the more the diff goes up
smickles: Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu and I are talking about two different things, him: insureance, me arbitrage
Diablo-D3: ahh
Diablo-D3: neither of you make sense to me
smickles: it's possible to calc a point to buy at where anything on one side of the line is risk free profit
smickles: *really low risk anyway
smickles: you'd have to keep the mining farm operating
mircea_popescu: look, it's really simple. you have 1k btc, want to mine. case A : you buy mining gear worth 1k btc. mine. as diff goes up you make less btc from mining
Diablo-D3: smickles: but why wouldnt I just sell mining contracts instead?
mircea_popescu: case B : you buy 900 BTC worth of mining gear and 100 btc worth of diff futures
mircea_popescu: as diff goes up you make less from mining but some money from the future
mircea_popescu: so overall you end up having more money than case A
Diablo-D3: okay, so you DO want diff to go up if you want to win at futures
mircea_popescu: if you buy them yes.
mircea_popescu: if you sell them no.
Diablo-D3: crap
Diablo-D3: that sucks then
smickles: Diablo-D3: because people shouldn't actually buy those mining contracts, the fact that there is a market for that shit baffles me
Diablo-D3: smickles: well, I was using it as virtual hash power for dmc before we got dmc
Diablo-D3: nefario was kind enough to steal a lot of dmc's money doing that
smickles: Diablo-D3: what's the max diff increase per occurrance?
Diablo-D3: smickles: Im not sure
Diablo-D3: ask gmaxwell or sipa
smickles: kk
smickles: ;;bc,diff
gribble: 3370181.7992778
Diablo-D3: smickles: its fast enough we can cross that 115x in 24 months if we had the hardware to do it
lyspooner: smickles, the future is very good for miners to buy
Diablo-D3: smickles: but we'd have to go from 17TH to like 17EH or something
mircea_popescu: 400%
mircea_popescu: the problem is that as hash output increases the 2k blocks go by faster, so the 400% is not related to time
mircea_popescu: you could get 1mn% in a few hours with enough power added
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: trying to play that game doesnt work
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16800 @ 0.00062165 = 10.4437 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: people were like "what if I power cycled a 51% mining cluster"
Diablo-D3: it doesnt work
lyspooner: "not related to time"... it's defined by time, if you just rid your antiquated idea of what time is
mircea_popescu: "work"
Diablo-D3: 2016 blocks on, 2016 blocks off
mircea_popescu: lol right lyspooner
Diablo-D3: you cant beat the game that way
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18020 @ 0.00062714 = 11.3011 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7108 @ 0.00062729 = 4.4588 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17993 @ 0.00062729 = 11.2868 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5907 @ 0.0006273 = 3.7055 BTC [+]
Diablo-D3: lyspooner: well, Ive used difficulty as a unit of time before
Diablo-D3: makes a lot of calculations a lot easier
lyspooner: Bitcoin Time is time
lyspooner: the blockchain has been described as a distributed timestamp
Diablo-D3: and it sorta is
mircea_popescu: kinda is yea
Diablo-D3: its more of an ordering protocol than anything
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16672 @ 0.0006241 = 10.405 BTC [-]
lyspooner: yes, that incremental blockheader is a very beautiful thing. although the block reward halving party wasn't as exciting as a new years countdown
lyspooner: memorylessness of waiting for a block
mircea_popescu: hehe wait for next one, when it goes from 25 to 12.5
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1513 @ 0.0006241 = 0.9443 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9087 @ 0.00062386 = 5.669 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 13.34963, Best ask: 13.36000, Bid-ask spread: 0.01037, Last trade: 13.34963, 24 hour volume: 67793.60594621, 24 hour low: 13.00000, 24 hour high: 13.90119, 24 hour vwap: 13.57774
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P150T] 1000 @ 0.2315999 = 231.5999 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P140T] 1000 @ 0.17242083 = 172.4208 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P130T] 1000 @ 0.12284241 = 122.8424 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14093 @ 0.0006273 = 8.8405 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2899 @ 0.00062746 = 1.819 BTC [+]
jcpham: http://static.pinboard.in/prosperity_cloud.htm
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00062386 = 4.679 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18000 @ 0.00062727 = 11.2909 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Each successful applicant will receive $37. This will cover the cost of six months of hosting at prgmr.com and a productivity-enhancing hot beverage.
mircea_popescu: gtfo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00062398 = 2.6962 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00062394 = 2.696 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4763 @ 0.00062386 = 2.9714 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10495 @ 0.00062146 = 6.5222 BTC [-]
jcpham: $37 is all you need to suceed!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.0006215 = 2.6855 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9505 @ 0.00062146 = 5.907 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3874 @ 0.00061993 = 2.4016 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: im sick of dubious hacks trying to be viral.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7497 @ 0.00061993 = 4.6476 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: i don't need 37 to succeed and i specifically do not need some nobody giving it to me.
jcpham: c'mon is funny
mircea_popescu: nope
mircea_popescu: i'd say it's unfunny
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1950 @ 0.00337576 = 6.5827 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.00062701 = 2.7093 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1133 @ 0.00062727 = 0.7107 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4321 @ 0.0006271 = 2.7097 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1967 @ 0.00062727 = 1.2338 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11901 @ 0.00062746 = 7.4674 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1750 @ 0.00062779 = 1.0986 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13949 @ 0.00062784 = 8.7577 BTC [+]