log
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DeaDTerra: okay just had a chat with Jered that will give my message to JRO once he get s home :)
DeaDTerra: so hopefully we will have a direct line between JRO and Nefario soon, so we can get a solution to this mess
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.1 = 0.5 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.B] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 11 @ 0.1047 = 1.1517 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: which mess?
DeaDTerra: rebate and JRO
farfi_: and zip.a or is that still alive?
BTC-Mining: Ah, I see... looks inactive...
BTC-Mining: Why is it still around?
BTC-Mining: Although, by looking at the website for bitcoinrebate... the issuer IS giving 1/50000 of revenues per share daily: Nothing.
BTC-Mining: And it's somehow always given on time: Never
BTC-Mining: Talk about being ponctual
farfi_: no point rubbing it in
BTC-Mining: oh, sorry. Did you have shares in it?
paladon: hi DeaDTerra still interested in some shares?
EskimoBob: what about the zipconf?
DeaDTerra: sorry all out of liquid capital otherwise I would have gotten some
paladon: ok np
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 200 @ 0.00111814 = 0.2236 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32200 @ 0.00035541 = 11.4442 BTC [-]
BTCHero: so glbse is down?
BTCHero: All my moneh!!!!
BTC-Mining: wait, it's not down...
Obsi: yep it done broked
BTCHero: oh it works for me again
BTC-Mining: I can still load pages and do stuff
BTC-Mining: Ah, it's a bit slow, maybe some requests just time out on some occasions
mircea_popescu: BTCHero was down for me earlier
assbot: [GLBSE] [GMVT-BOT] 1 @ 0.1 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 438 @ 0.101 = 44.238 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 6 @ 0.101 = 0.606 BTC [-]
BTCHero: DeaDTerra: You give ASICMINING your seal of approval?
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 4 @ 1.04 = 4.16 BTC [-]
BTCHero: err ASICMINING
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 9 @ 0.101 = 0.909 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 10 @ 1 = 10 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: Yes, though unfortunatly my seal of approval isn't worth much anymore... xD
BTCHero: Oh, must be some drama i missed
DeaDTerra: Hopefully JRO will do what's right and restore not only his but also my reputation
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 170 @ 0.101 = 17.17 BTC [-]
DeaDTerra: Rebate+ZIP.A are frozen
DeaDTerra: pending a buyback
mircea_popescu: what'd be the total value involved ?
BTCHero: is there a pertinent thread on bitcointalk?
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83784.msg999988#msg999988 like
DeaDTerra: It depends full value 5000 BTC, buy back according to contract closer to 3500 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 9 @ 0.1047 = 0.9423 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.BTCST.PPT] 4 @ 1.0443 = 4.1772 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [CPA] 12 @ 0.10296 = 1.2355 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: so like 40k usd. hopefully the guy wouldn't muck up his name for a midrange car.
Ukto: I could use a new car
Ukto: >,>
BTCHero: mircea_popescu: I have had people rob me of 25 dollars
mircea_popescu: ya BTCHero but were they people trying to be like, i dunno, property developers ?
BTCHero: so I take it DeaDTerra was covering for him? Is that what i am reading
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11912 @ 0.00034886 = 4.1556 BTC [-]
BTCHero: mircea_popescu: more like drug users
mircea_popescu: well.
assbot: [GLBSE] [BDK.BND] 2 @ 0.102747 = 0.2055 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what i don't seem to get an answer to is if the j kenna guy paid all tradehill deposits ? or not really ?
rg: DRAMA ?
mircea_popescu: just the zip thing.
rg: zipconf turned out to be shit?
mircea_popescu: and rebate
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1500 @ 0.00111814 = 1.6772 BTC [-]
DeaDTerra: Yes I was kind of covering for him, he told me things was delayed and that it would soon be up and running. naively I belived him and as long as he payed the dividends i thought it was okay. This is for ZIP.A
rg: i calllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllled it
mircea_popescu: well the owens guy is awol or w/e.
rg: rg +1
mircea_popescu: rg : that's what Chaang-Noi said. you shoudl team up
rg: remember when i was like well we should probably get some proof from him
rg: like src
rg: and like
rg: info
Azelphur: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/bitcoinica-users-sue-for-460k-in-lost-bitcoins/ :O
rg: and everyone was like no
rg: theyre already cool
DeaDTerra: For Rebate he disapeared and I had no contact for a long time then he got back and told me Alberto was now in charge and I have been workign with it ever since to try to make it correct
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: Yes my decisions have might have been questionable but I have always made them for the right reason. Always pushing for justice for the share holders.
Chaang-Noi: rg i posted on the forum that his "magic" was bs and made clear mathew w was in the pay of jro for setting up the scam...
Chaang-Noi: this was not shock to some
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: DeaDTerra i still don't see why you'd bother from the get go.
DeaDTerra: Well, when I first started with JRO he has a team, he had a vision and a sound idea. So I helped him, I put my ass on the line. I invested heavily into him.
Chaang-Noi: honestly Dead, i pull my money out of your fund when you started working with jro and matthew w
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTC-MINING] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: When then things started to go worse, I thought it was just some development errors it will soon be fixed. The actual truth that a rebate was not being developed and b ZipConf didn't work as intended was not told. Instead they said it's being worked on or being delayed.
rg: well
rg: it just stunk to me
rg: from the beginning
rg: all i did was ask people to ask questiions
Chaang-Noi: and dead, you were about the only person who i let have my coins
rg: before they start handing over their moneyt
rg: that's all
DeaDTerra: Well I have learnt, hopefully this will never happen agai for me.
rg: i was just about to make a joke
DeaDTerra: Thank you, Feels good to know that people don't doubt my trust even though I did a major fuck up.
rg: and realized that a stock trading channel is probably not the best place to make it
mircea_popescu: you obviously aren't aware of how poker is played.
DeaDTerra: hahah xD
mircea_popescu: you drop hands don't prop hands.
rg: that reminds me
rg: i need to pay a $600 bill
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 10 @ 1 = 10 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: Yea, when I realized there were cracks I should have stepped away, instead of trying to improve it trying to force justice and development.
mircea_popescu: learn from that, srsly.
assbot: [GLBSE] [NASTY] 9 @ 0.55 = 4.95 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: and everyone should. all this supporting people you aren't married to... srsly.
Chaang-Noi: jro and matthew w should not be trusted :/
DeaDTerra: I will, I will never put my name on something I don't controll, and if I do it has to be clearly stated that I only do x and y. Because with rebate suddenly instead of a team and a massive budget we had a confused investor (that's me) and a single developer.
mircea_popescu: myea.
DeaDTerra: oh well, done is done. It's easy to be smart in retrospect.
mircea_popescu: for good cause in english smart means both like wise and like what you feel on your ass after a good belting.
DeaDTerra: Indeed, I will do my best to try to wrap this up, but considering that's what I have been doing for the last couple of months I don't think it will help much ... sigh
Chaang-Noi: ill invest with you again deadt but only after this gets cleared up and that loan to matthew gets taken off the books, i highly doubt he will pay it back
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: Indeed, I already have a similar statment from a 6,000 BTC investor.
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITNODES] 1 @ 0.24 BTC [-]
DeaDTerra: I have been working on selling it off for the last couple of weeks but the liquidity has been very low xD I guess that doesn't matter now anyways, I just hope the investors gets some kind of payment back.
mircea_popescu: actually, is there any evidence of matthew n wright ever paying a loan back ?
mircea_popescu: not wishy-washy lender says is ok. actually paid.
mircea_popescu: DeaDTerra did you talk to copumpkin about buying the loan ? i think he was trying to get a refinance business going
DeaDTerra: No i have not
DeaDTerra: It's 100% loan for maximum of 9 months
DeaDTerra: making it 2,7% a week and it was 1500$
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 3 @ 1 = 3 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 2 @ 0.1047 = 0.2094 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: starting when ?
DeaDTerra: 20 june
mircea_popescu: so till march ? did you get july coupon ?
DeaDTerra: it's all paid off in the end
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 2 @ 1.0251 = 2.0502 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 31 @ 1.025 = 31.775 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 46 @ 1 = 46 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [SYNERGY] 1 @ 0.1955 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 475 @ 1.12 = 532 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 20 @ 1.12 = 22.4 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what do you mean DeaDTerra ?
mircea_popescu: whoa nelly. who did that ?
DeaDTerra: it's all paid at the end of the loan then 3000$ is paid back
mircea_popescu: o no coupons.
BTC-Mining: Well if anyone has bulk volume to sell, I need to purchase more stock
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 11 @ 0.12 = 1.32 BTC [-]
DeaDTerra: ASICMINER?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49088 @ 0.00034886 = 17.1248 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00034826 = 5.1542 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3012 @ 0.0003442 = 1.0367 BTC [-]
BTC-Mining: eh, no, no guarantees it will work and deferred
BTC-Mining: I'll skip ASICMINER
DeaDTerra: oki :)
mircea_popescu: so what are you trying to buy ?
BTC-Mining: Already got 30 shares and might only buy a few every now and then
BTC-Mining: But won't put a lot in.
BTC-Mining: Eh, anything with an history of beeing succesful so far
DeaDTerra: JLP-BMD?
DeaDTerra: MergedMining?
DeaDTerra: Fpga.contract
DeaDTerra: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq6Ug2ODt-l2dC13WldWaTBWQVNYZWRwVDgtQmhzUkE#gid=0
mircea_popescu: haha, mpoe :D
DeaDTerra: have a look at my portfolio :P
BTC-Mining: FPGA, meh, no. Because it's fixed to FPGA and with ASICs coming soon...
BTC-Mining: BMD/MergedMining? I don't know
mircea_popescu: dude, srsly. there's exactly one business in btc world making k's of btc a month. that's mpoe.
mircea_popescu: unlike mining, it's not deprecating.
assbot: [GLBSE] [COGNITIVE] 14 @ 0.6631 = 9.2834 BTC [-]
BTC-Mining: Where is GBF? On Mpex?
mircea_popescu: on mpex and on glbse
mircea_popescu: <assbot> [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 475 @ 1.12 = 532 BTC [+] << that.
BTC-Mining: How much in dividend?
mircea_popescu: lemme dig them up
DeaDTerra: GBF is no where, but we plan to register on GLBSE later on possible.
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64962.60 there, for mpoe results.
BTC-Mining: Hmm, ideally, create one share per (minimum investment value) and split it to current holders
BTC-Mining: Then sell extra shares
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 2 @ 1.1399 = 2.2798 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: the etf reports separately, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67535.msg1039612#msg1039612
assbot: [GLBSE] [JAH] 4 @ 0.19 = 0.76 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: what's gbf ?
BTC-Mining: hmm, what are the MPOE? Options? Ah...
mircea_popescu: yeah it's my old options page turned full exchange.
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 7 @ 0.00997999 = 0.0699 BTC [+]
DeaDTerra: GBF is Gamma Bitcoin Investment Fund :)
BTC-Mining: Lots of earning on those options it seems
mircea_popescu: in a good month they beat giga hehe
mircea_popescu: on a bad month investors are insulated from loss anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/sa-ne-jucam-de-a-investitiile-n-bitcoini/#comment-78745 read up on how it's set up exactly.
mircea_popescu: o wow, there was a first SR arrest ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTC-MINING] 32 @ 1 = 32 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 10 @ 1 = 10 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 5 @ 1 = 5 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [GOLD] 2 @ 0.00920001 = 0.0184 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: link?
Ignatius-otc1: yes, please link mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: http://betabeat.com/2012/07/australian-law-enforcement-use-silk-road-at-your-peril/
Ignatius-otc1: ty
mircea_popescu: http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/news/afp/2012/july/afp-and-Customs-warn-users-of-silk-road.aspx
assbot: [GLBSE] [JTME] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 3 @ 1.25 = 3.75 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 15 @ 1.333333 = 20 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 100 @ 1.5 = 150 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: "The requirement for the customer to assemble the weapon also hampers usability" ok this is the stupidest thing i ever hear
mircea_popescu: hehe BTC-Mining was that you ?
BTC-Mining: Yes, I just upped my stake
mircea_popescu: well if it keeps going...
mircea_popescu: it launched at 0.1 if memory serves. or 0.2 or something
BTC-Mining: No, launched at 1?
mircea_popescu: anyway what the fuck is this, who buys guns that they can't dissasemble/reassemble ?!
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining i was pretty sure it was .1 ? back in the old random allocation days ?
mircea_popescu: smickles you about ?
BTC-Mining: random allocations?
BTC-Mining: I think we're not talking about the same things
mircea_popescu: haha are we ?
mircea_popescu: [GLBSE] [MPOE.ETF] 100 @ 1.5 = 150 BTC [+] << that's what i was talking about.
BTC-Mining: I just noticed there was .ETF just before you asked
BTC-Mining: No, I don't have an account on Mpex
mircea_popescu: ...
BTC-Mining: So ETF had 0.15 in revenue but paid 0.005 I see. Most is respent.
assbot: [GLBSE] [BDT] 1 @ 1.093 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.B] 5 @ 1 = 5 BTC [-]
BTC-Mining: I was referring to the the purchase in my own issue by the way which happened just a bit before
mircea_popescu: i think the revenue is mostly share appreciation
BTC-Mining: I suppose
mircea_popescu: whats that, jtme ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 1 @ 1.1399 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36262 @ 0.00035541 = 12.8879 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13738 @ 0.0003579 = 4.9168 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTC-MINING] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MOVETO.FUND] 1 @ 1.07 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: jtme?
Ignatius-otc1: Your asset on the glbse, it's BTC-MINING right?
BTC-Mining: Yes
BTC-Mining: I don't know, there's so many tickers I don't follow/watch on GLBSE
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34456 @ 0.0003579 = 12.3318 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: Looking at it right now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68746 @ 0.00035873 = 24.6613 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16798 @ 0.00036042 = 6.0543 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: o i see, btc-mining. what's that, miner ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-PI] 40 @ 1.6 = 64 BTC [-]
BTC-Mining: Yes, quite simply mining it seems... look at that, JTME takes 25% of shares... + deducts all expenses before giving dividend
BTC-Mining: or so says the contract
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 4800 @ 0.00111814 = 5.3671 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 14423 @ 0.00109346 = 15.771 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 8196 @ 0.00109056 = 8.9382 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 9497 @ 0.00108947 = 10.3467 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 8200 @ 0.00108065 = 8.8613 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 2100 @ 0.00108064 = 2.2693 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 3100 @ 0.00107599 = 3.3356 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 3062 @ 0.00106874 = 3.2725 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1622 @ 0.00106793 = 1.7322 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: the reason i wouldnt put money in mining atm is that i imagine they will be hit by a double whammy of deprecviation
mircea_popescu: from halving of block reward and from eventual asics
Ignatius-otc1: same, but I do hold small amounts of some.
mircea_popescu: i hold quite a few gigavps bonds but im hedged entirely, just the depositary.
BTC-Mining: We're waiting for the ASICs
mircea_popescu: i'd be more worried about december halving. i don't think at the curent bumbling pace the various companies will manage to deliver enough asics for diff to double
mircea_popescu: but the halving is in writing.
Ignatius-otc1: mircea_popescu: is there still a 20BTC fee to open an account with MPEX? I found someone with an account who would place orders there for me, but he wnated 10% roundtrip.
mircea_popescu: there is, it's not going away Ignatius-otc1
mircea_popescu: if anything it will increase in time. i haven't yet because the btc doubled.
Ignatius-otc1: Can you explain that or link me to the explanation for such a large fee?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 371 @ 0.0034264 = 1.2712 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 283 @ 0.00351528 = 0.9948 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 1000 @ 0.0035919 = 3.5919 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 72 @ 0.00359263 = 0.2587 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 274 @ 0.003849 = 1.0546 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what do you mean the explanation ?
Ignatius-otc1: Sorry for my ignorance, but I currently trade on the GLBSE and there are no fees to have an account there. What is the purpose of the 20BTC fee for an account?
mircea_popescu: i think it's pretty simple, on glbse you get free account and 1% fees round trip. on mpex you have to ante 20 btc and fee is .2% round trip.
mircea_popescu: if you will trade less than about 2k btc you're better off on glbse
Ignatius-otc1: ahh far lower fees, ok thanks
mircea_popescu: if you'll trade more than 2,5k or so you're better off on mpex
mircea_popescu: it's also the only place where you can trade options, the only place where you have margins, and i don't recall if transfers are still free or not on glbse, but anyway.
Ignatius-otc1: 0.2% xfer fee at glbse I think
BTC-Mining: For assets only
mircea_popescu: well on mpex it's free.
mircea_popescu: o, yea, and you can also get margin (provided you're an established trader).
Ignatius-otc1: what level of leverage? 4:1?
mircea_popescu: it's not by rate, you get a fixed ammount.
Ignatius-otc1: I would like options access but currently mpex is out of my budget. Hopefully in the future...
mircea_popescu: im pretty certain it's not going anywhere.
BTC-Mining: Bye the way, no one interested in giving perpetual loan to me for 0.5% weekly? I have very good backings eh
Ignatius-otc1: size of loan?
BTC-Mining: Eh, anywhere under 250 BTC
Ignatius-otc1: Buying more asics or?
mircea_popescu: mail order gf from the ukraine
BTC-Mining: No, stricly for trading with the funds.
Ignatius-otc1: in that case get a bulk discount and im in
mircea_popescu: you know, MPBOR is like 4.9% atm
BTC-Mining: Backed by my personal income and a larger amount of GLBSE assets
mircea_popescu: you're better off putting your money there than hussling for .5 a week
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 1 @ 1.14 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: What is MPBOR?
DeaDTerra: I got a 100 BTC loan for 0.1% a week ;)
mircea_popescu: MPbond offered rate.
Ignatius-otc1: Is that a pirate related bond mircea_popescu?
mircea_popescu: srsly, read the explanation in that last link i put up
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 6 @ 0.1047 = 0.6282 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: in no way, Ignatius-otc1. it finances the options sold.
Ignatius-otc1: ahh, ty
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 6 @ 0.00925001 = 0.0555 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 1 @ 0.00925 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/sa-ne-jucam-de-a-investitiile-n-bitcoini/#comment-78745 go there look for where it says "bonds"
mircea_popescu: it's all explained.
assbot: [GLBSE] [SILVER] 3 @ 0.00900001 = 0.027 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26395 @ 0.00036042 = 9.5133 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00036267 = 10.6262 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: You lend capital at a 2% premium?
mircea_popescu: hm?
BTC-Mining: Says there you're lending funds to MPOE for a 2% premium for the purpose of having the funds need for all ongoing open calls
mircea_popescu: a a. normaly the options are financed by a sort of bond auction
mircea_popescu: if there's not enough to fill in i step in and supply the capital.
mircea_popescu: the limit was 2% but it was moved in may to 5%
mircea_popescu: and i contemplate leaving it to freefloat.
Ignatius-otc1: that would be interesting
mircea_popescu: let the market price the bonds.
mircea_popescu: i just want to do things smoothly so as not to shock the market.
BTC-Mining: I'm just unfamilar with options to start with eh
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 2 @ 1.0402 = 2.0804 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: welllll... familiarize! :D
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: actually the girl did some nice write-ups back in the day, lemme find.
BTC-Mining: Would help, will bookmark it for late perusal.
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 10200 @ 0.00106814 = 10.895 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: I'm a bit too sleepy on this Sunday evening to read about anything.
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 3 @ 1 = 3 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: later*
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 7 @ 0.1047 = 0.7329 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell BTC-Mining https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67302.0 muahaha
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 4 @ 1.0403 = 4.1612 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.HASH.P10TH] 114000 @ 0.02545034 = 2901.3388 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: Because I was already there
mircea_popescu: Customer satisfaction on Silk Road is mostly positive, with a 97.8% positive feedback rate, although less than that on white market sites like Ebay, which boasts a positive feedback rate of 99%.
mircea_popescu: very comparable items.
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 3 @ 1.14 = 3.42 BTC [+]
Ignatius-otc: Many ebay sellers manipulate their fb as if they drop below a certain % they could have their accounts temporarily denied selling rights. By having multiple accounts sellers can control their fb %.
mircea_popescu: obviously.
mircea_popescu: the metric is entirely fake.
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 3 @ 1 = 3 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 594 @ 0.00106814 = 0.6345 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 700 @ 0.00108113 = 0.7568 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 6464 @ 0.00114078 = 7.374 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 15400 @ 0.0011431 = 17.6037 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 13500 @ 0.00114584 = 15.4688 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 6300 @ 0.0011497 = 7.2431 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 7042 @ 0.00115139 = 8.1081 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99222.0 o wow somebody actually sued bitcoinica.
mircea_popescu: AS TO DEFENDANT BITCOINICA LP, ALSO KNOWN AS BITCOINICA BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LTD INTERSANGO LTD. NORMAN, DONALD STRATEMAN, PATRICK TAAKI, AMIR DOES 1 THRU 100, INCL. SUMMONS ISSUED
BTC-Mining: yes, old news
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 80 @ 0.1047 = 8.376 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: news to me i just heard about it
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 4 @ 0.1047 = 0.4188 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [GOLD] 15 @ 0.00920001 = 0.138 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 2 @ 0.86 = 1.72 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 4 @ 1.0398 = 4.1592 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 6 @ 1.0399 = 6.2394 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [JTME] 3 @ 1 = 3 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 6 @ 0.00924999 = 0.0555 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 70 @ 1 = 70 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 6 @ 0.00925 = 0.0555 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 1 @ 0.00925 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: cited for conversion, this is the real article.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3905 @ 0.00036353 = 1.4196 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22520 @ 0.0003442 = 7.7514 BTC [-]
Ignatius-otc: I didn't think bitcoinica was based udner sec regs? If so, huge derp on their part.
mircea_popescu: well bitcoinica was something that's illegal since the 1930s
mircea_popescu: back when it was owned by some chinese kid somewhere in taiwan or somesuch it was somewhat safe
mircea_popescu: i don't understand what someone based in the us must have been thinking to get involved however.
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 2 @ 1.0389 = 2.0778 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 15 @ 0.125 = 1.875 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19038 @ 0.00036473 = 6.9437 BTC [+]
Ignatius-otc: mircea_popescu: the illegal aprt applies to regulated markets. For example, there is the retail foreign exchange amrket, unregulated, and bukcet shops are all voer the place.
mircea_popescu: how many of these survived a day in court ?
Ignatius-otc: btc is also an unregulated market, afaik...but I personally wouldnt take on the risk of being a bitcoinica,unelss I based in tor maybe:P
mircea_popescu: myea. kind of my point.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11408 @ 0.0003442 = 3.9266 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 892 @ 0.00034116 = 0.3043 BTC [-]
Ignatius-otc: Has managing btc assets become a full time job for your mircea_popescu?
Ignatius-otc: for you*
mircea_popescu: o, no.
mircea_popescu: you know, it's funny... bitcoinica and mpoe were born like 2 weeks apart
mircea_popescu: it'd have been their 1year bday this month.
Ignatius-otc: I made an account at bitcoinica but read of others experiencing faked market moves. I am familiar with them from chinese based forex bucket shops like cmsfx. I didn't get a coin deposited before they shut down.
Ignatius-otc: Do you have a normal day job? If so, what is it? If you don't mind me asking...
mircea_popescu: Ignatius-otc i run my own company (polimedia srl), i am a business consultant.
mircea_popescu: i also run romania's most widely read blog, an aggregator service that dominates that market
mircea_popescu: and other things.
assbot: [GLBSE] [MERGEDMINING] 5 @ 0.091 = 0.455 BTC [+]
Azelphur: I have a microwave
mircea_popescu: but that aside, i probably do manage more btc assets than most anyone.
Azelphur: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsyez9IMC51qhoydp.gif \o/
Ignatius-otc: I was productive yesterday...not yet today!
Azelphur: hehe
Azelphur: I'm lies really, working on supybot stuff \o/
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 8 @ 1 = 8 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: How much do you manage currently, mircea?
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 60 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0069 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1800 @ 0.00113771 = 2.0479 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: mm, well the bonds report lists something like 6k or so ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 7 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0008 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: if you look at the exhange address there's anything from 20 to 50k in there.
mircea_popescu: then there's all the btc people on mpex put in, and all the respective shares
mircea_popescu: and there's my own money... it comes to a decent chunk.
BTC-Mining: eh, indeed
mircea_popescu: if it's true what they say of pirate being over 1mn by now then that guy prolly beats me
mircea_popescu: but i don't think that many more out there. maybe, who knows
mircea_popescu: anon currency after all.
mircea_popescu: zhou was prolly one at his zenith, unfortunately that didn't go over so well for him.
mircea_popescu: mtgox from what i understand is losing money, but even so they prolly have more in cash.
mircea_popescu: the sr guy supposedly clears 10-20 k a month, so that could be another.
BTC-Mining: MtGox losing money?
BTC-Mining: hmm
mircea_popescu: that's what they say.
mircea_popescu: and it kinda figures, tbh. the entire filing of paperwork thing is expensive.
mircea_popescu: but iirc their last statement put them at -100k usd for the year.
BTC-Mining: But they weren't around for long and bitcoin prices went up just last year
BTC-Mining: The cost to get a secured platform developed and improved upon are high.
mircea_popescu: mtgox !? they were around since day one lol, remember the first hack in btcworld ?
BTC-Mining: Arf, that's misconstructed sentence
BTC-Mining: They haven't been around with high bitcoins price for a long time
mircea_popescu: well there was that time when it was 30+
mircea_popescu: but they didn't really have the volume back then
BTC-Mining: since in the beggining the USD price of bitcoins were peanuts and volume was lower
mircea_popescu: so ya maybe it looks better for them
BTC-Mining: and they had to deal with security issue, remade the whole website to look and feel much better, etc.
mircea_popescu: course i think trade volume is sticky in usd more than in btc.
BTC-Mining: Lots of cost, they might have less costs from now on on that part and more profit from the higher volume at high prices
mircea_popescu: let's do some math tho, at 2mn a month with a .5% fee they clear 10k btc which is 120k usd a month
mircea_popescu: that's payroll for 2 people but not 20
mircea_popescu: and i tihnk they're closer to 20 and also, have investment.
BTC-Mining: 2 million a month with thoses fees x 2
mircea_popescu: that's the main difference, i fully financed both mpoe and its morphing into mpex, not having investors aboard helps tons your position later
BTC-Mining: for buyer + for seller
mircea_popescu: if you know about start-ups you know what i mean.
assbot: [GLBSE] [PUREMINING] 1 @ 0.15439999 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: well ya 2x, but they also have to pay servers and whatnot. im just saying a coupla mn usd yearly revenue isn't HUGE. it's a small business.
BTC-Mining: Indeed
mircea_popescu: posh corner coffeeshop in busy metropolitan area style small busines.s
BTC-Mining: But all bitcoins businesses are small, just like bitcoin economy
mircea_popescu: yet, yeah.
BTC-Mining: MtGox is huge on that scale
mircea_popescu: then again, if i manage to get deliverable options already on something that will change.
mircea_popescu: course... it doesn't looks like it wants to happen ;/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17799 @ 0.00034116 = 6.0723 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33201 @ 0.00033748 = 11.2047 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 9 @ 1 = 9 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 50 @ 0.125 = 6.25 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Cartmell was invited to testify before the United States senate in regards to Internet Governance by ICANN, is the inventor of five issued U.S. patents, led the successful battle against Hormel for the right to include the word "Spam" in trademarks that relate to email services, and is a major shareholder and board member of companies ranging from digital payment services to all-natural zero calorie sodas.
mircea_popescu: THAT Cartmell is sueing intersango ?
mircea_popescu: o boy.
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 90 @ 0.1047 = 9.423 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NASTY] 3 @ 0.57 = 1.71 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NASTY] 1 @ 0.58 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NASTY] 6 @ 0.59 = 3.54 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: ... link?
mircea_popescu: http://www.cartmell.co.nz/
mircea_popescu: something tells me this is the end of intersango and the named individuals.
BTC-Mining: Can I get any reputable sources telling me that story again or should I just trust his own personal websites...
mircea_popescu: which story ?
BTC-Mining: Well all the story about him
mircea_popescu: i don't know the guy personally but i know of him
mircea_popescu: specifically the hormel spam case.
mircea_popescu: now if its the same cartmell im not so sure, but if it is guy's a pitbulldogorca.
mircea_popescu: Yea i suppose so, but since there seem to be a lot of people complaining about funds being stuck in intersango i have the feeling they will never get it back now that this is going on.
mircea_popescu: Just hoping it won't cause many more people losses.
mircea_popescu: wait, WHAT ? were there many complaints of stuck funds ?!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13576 @ 0.00036473 = 4.9516 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29573 @ 0.000365 = 10.7941 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24599 @ 0.00033748 = 8.3017 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37893 @ 0.00033502 = 12.6949 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37508 @ 0.000335 = 12.5652 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 20 @ 0.102 = 2.04 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 20 @ 0.1011 = 2.022 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 40 @ 0.10100001 = 4.04 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: We'd hoped that our offer would both push Bitcoinica to resolve the claims faster, and give them more room for error. If they resolved all the claims within 6 months and paid us an equal pro rata share, they'd have immunity from us. Coincidentally, the amount of funds stolen only 2 days after this offer was made was nearly 100% of what we were owed at the time.
mircea_popescu: ok, this is seriously conspiracy to defraud, this may yet result in jail time.
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 100 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0115 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 6 @ 1 = 6 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 65 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0075 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 700 @ 0.00341166 = 2.3882 BTC [-]
smickles: mircea_popescu: ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47133 @ 0.000365 = 17.2035 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: was earlier a discussion about mpoe.etf
smickles: ah, too bad i missed it, but my logs are iffy about that time... i've had diablo on ignore
mircea_popescu: was just discussing with BTC-Mining the original etf value, it went out at .1 didnt it ?
smickles: yup
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIB.PIRATE] 1 @ 1.03999972 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 8 @ 0.1 = 0.8 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIB.PIRATE] 1 @ 1.045 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: How long ago was that?
smickles: BTC-Mining: march, iirc, let me verify
smickles: BTC-Mining: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67535.0 first post march 6
mircea_popescu: to be perfectly fair tho, that was capital raised to participate in the risky stock allocation at the time
mircea_popescu: (wherein a specified block was put up and anyone could deposit btc for a set time, after which shares were distributed proportionally)
mircea_popescu: that ran for march and april iirc.
smickles: yeah, i think the etf got in on only one round
mircea_popescu: o, was it february and march ?
BTC-Mining: at .1? It's gone up by 1000% in 5 months?
smickles: mircea_popescu: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/3622733/8d6c3595f76d101003b1c09810d2b0f5108ea2952cdf873e460fe94049143c2c
smickles: mpoe.etf's 'subscription'
mircea_popescu: yup 1mn offered in feb and 4mn offered in march you're right.
mircea_popescu: wasn't it trading at 1.5 earlier ?
smickles: i think it did trade at 1.5
smickles: best ask is 1.9 right now
mircea_popescu: 1500% beotch :D
mircea_popescu: ohoho wtf.
mircea_popescu: what's going on over there
smickles: best bid is 1.5
mircea_popescu: no wait. wait wait. how many shares it holds again ?
mircea_popescu: 4mn what exactly ?
smickles: probably just too few people selling
smickles: mircea_popescu: sec, i'll get the exact #
mircea_popescu: there was a wall up
smickles: 4`073`981, I unfortunately missed that excellent buy opportunity earlier
mircea_popescu: .py 0.00036500 * 4073981 / 1000
markac: 1.487003065
mircea_popescu: a, so it's about right then huh
smickles: mircea_popescu: we have about 21 in btc too
smickles: iirc
mircea_popescu: o, you retain cash ?
smickles: some, to have buy orders placed to catch dips
mircea_popescu: apparently no dips. you plan FAILS
smickles: mircea_popescu: didn't it drop to 0.00010000 before this recent spurt?
mircea_popescu: for like a minute yeh
mircea_popescu: theres a long tail on the chart for sure.
smickles: mircea_popescu: yeah, i meant to have a buy in there to catch those sort of things :/
mircea_popescu: lol woulda been crazy for nav if you managed to pick up some 1/3 price s.mpoe
assbot: [GLBSE] [BMMO] 1 @ 0.10899699 BTC [+]
smickles: mircea_popescu: i would've looked like a bonafide geenass
mircea_popescu: lol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25429 @ 0.00036527 = 9.2885 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61100 @ 0.00036597 = 22.3608 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00036856 = 9.472 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32892 @ 0.00037361 = 12.2888 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00037375 = 4.4103 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00037489 = 12.5213 BTC [+]
smickles: ciuciu: didn't he go bankrupt a few times too?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52933 @ 0.00037491 = 19.8451 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.0003752 = 5.4404 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00037584 = 7.3665 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43111 @ 0.00037767 = 16.2817 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00037812 = 1.8906 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34500 @ 0.000379 = 13.0755 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46800 @ 0.00038002 = 17.7849 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00038122 = 5.1846 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64400 @ 0.00038154 = 24.5712 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.00038241 = 0.3442 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00038312 = 4.0228 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3835 @ 0.00038561 = 1.4788 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: who went bankrupt ?
smickles: mircea_popescu: i heard some biz you ran went bankrupt
mircea_popescu: ahaha ? no ?
smickles: coulda just been fud tho
mircea_popescu: it never happened, no.
mircea_popescu: is that little shit ciuciu spreading crap ?
mircea_popescu: dumbass wannabe romanian scammers, he's on my ignore.
mircea_popescu: every day some nut coming up with brilliant ideeas.
dub: I though romania existed to scam the internet?
mircea_popescu: * lonely_ (59cca34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.204.163.77) has joined #bitcoin-otc-eu
mircea_popescu: <lonely_> can i get some btc with my mastercard? i can provide documents that im the cardholder, but i need btc very quick
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> nope.
mircea_popescu: <lonely_> mircea trimite un msg pe privat
mircea_popescu: * SaLoMoN has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
mircea_popescu: <kakobreklaa> O_o
mircea_popescu: * kakobreklaa is now known as kakobrekla
mircea_popescu: * lonely_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> you can prolly safely ban that entire C class for carding.
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 100 @ 0.1047 = 10.47 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: that from -otc-eu like a coupla hours ago.
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 30 @ 0.1047 = 3.141 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: dub i know ukraine exists for spamming, but romania is supposedly cleanning up.
dub: it was certainly a big player when I cared about network abuse
BTC-Mining: Assuming someone is registering for him so he has private whois... that would be quite acceptable...
BTC-Mining: whois doesn't always display the actual owner of the domain.
Luceo: Anonymous whois is good
Luceo: Fuck public whois
mircea_popescu: what happened with namecoin btw ? dead ?
smickles: ciuciu: have you seen my identification?
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 56 @ 1 = 56 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: My whois is always public
smickles: heh mine too
Luceo: Mine too, my real name is Sonic TheHedgehog and I live in Pyongyang KP
Luceo: fuh reelz
mircea_popescu: are the korean hos as hot as vragnaroda says ?
Luceo: Yes
Luceo: Having said that, the Romanian ones aren't bad either :D
tsukino: Hahahahahaha cartmell is on the case theyre fucked
smickles: ciuciu: well, if you read about mircea, i should be a small footnote somewhere
mircea_popescu: aha! is it THE cartmell tsukino ? i was saying earlier...
tsukino: They would have faired better to hire me as an arbitrator
Luceo: imo identity is overrated
mircea_popescu: Luceo what if you find your gf banging two big niggers
smickles: Luceo: out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on property?
mircea_popescu: and when you show up she looks all confused and says wel... she thought it was you ?
Luceo: Even if I know someone's real name, I'm not going to travel half the world to sue someone for $1k or something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00038561 = 3.3934 BTC [+]
Luceo: smickles: Property is essential to a free society :P
mircea_popescu: there's either anon or property. pick one.
smickles: ciuciu: not really
smickles: nope
Luceo: I don't care about anonymity, I don't think anyone is more trustworthy because I know their name or what they look like
mircea_popescu: that's valid
mircea_popescu: tho i tend to trust otc ratings
Luceo: People are trustworthy based on joint connections, history etc
Luceo: Whether anonymous or validated
mircea_popescu: eexactly.
tsukino: By the way romanian people are very cool. A romanian physicist worked with my father to develop the world's first nuclear battery
mircea_popescu: course wot for instance is pseudonymous not anon. big difference.
tsukino: he was a kind and gentle man, very smart hehe
Luceo: Maybe there's more potential recompense for validated people, nbut with the volume of most BTC transactions you're not going to go and sue anyone if they go shits up
mircea_popescu: tsukino yes they are! in general they're clever and daring sorts, except the kids are insufficiently trained
Luceo: s/nbut/but
tsukino: I dont think its fair that you insinuated that romanians were scammers esp. since you are romanian
mircea_popescu: so they end up making fools of themselves on teh interwebz.
Luceo: mircea_popescu: Pseudonymous is good
mircea_popescu: i insinuated that ?!
Luceo: I know, I'm agreeing
usagi: You said something about romanian scammers and said ban the whole c-class lol
mircea_popescu: well romania has more than one c class lol
Luceo: I just get annoyed at people Q_Qing about 'omg hidden whois' like it means anything
dub: >c class
usagi: Wow since when
dub: >class
mircea_popescu: ahahah
usagi: Lol
smickles: ciuciu: what precautions do you suggest?
dub: >/facepalm
mircea_popescu: but srsly! the reason i publish mpoe/mpex monthly in romanian is exactly that, get people to see that yes, romania is like the 3rd economy of the eu
mircea_popescu: now that franceitalyspainportugalirelandetc went bust.
Luceo: Romania is great
Luceo: Cheap alcohol
BTC-Mining: Luceo, most scammers don't want to be known, even if they steal only small amounts
smickles: ciuciu: you really think an id would help anything?
Luceo: BTC-Mining: Sure, but a lot of non-scammers don't want to be known either
mircea_popescu: what id dood ?
Luceo: BTC-Mining: Take SR traders for example, they may not wish to be known :P
Luceo: But many are not scammers
mircea_popescu: imo selling pot for like, > 10 bux an ounce is
BTC-Mining: I suppose then not knowing who you're dealing with can be acceptable, and knowing is a small bonus
smickles: mircea_popescu: this ciuciu person want's your id
mircea_popescu: costs what to grow, bout the same as hay ?
mircea_popescu: smickles is it so hard to google my name ?!
Luceo: mircea_popescu: Blame the government :(
mircea_popescu: Luceo just saying, on the face of things prolly cheaper to feed horses pot than hay.
mircea_popescu: certainly a lot more fun riding them afterwards lol
Luceo: Quite probably, but a lot worse to get caught with pot than hay :P
smickles: mircea_popescu: i would assume he means a form of id which is made of plastic and 'issued to you'
mircea_popescu: right. anonymous dude with scammy glbsse assets (pardon the pleonasm) is asking for my id.
mircea_popescu: what's this, paraipan reloaded ?
smickles: ciuciu: why would he run with the money, rather than continue operating a successful operation?
smickles: ciuciu issues assets on glbse?
mircea_popescu: his entire issue is that the girl pointed out that his bond's name, aka ciuciu
mircea_popescu: means "jack shit" in romanian. which it does.
smickles: mircea_popescu: wasn't paraipan the guy who filed a police report on sombody?
mircea_popescu: it was zhou, for not giving him id or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: how dares zhou operate a business and not give paraipan his id!!11
smickles: ciuciu: glbse verification means jack shit
Ignatius-otc: What is your glbse asset ciuciu?
smickles: it could be so easily faked
mircea_popescu: did you even verify in the end smickles ?
smickles: ciuciu: i post my own garbage on glbse, thank you
mircea_popescu: i remember at some point a riot in -otc
smickles: mircea_popescu ya
BTC-Mining: Seems it would be hard to fake GLBSE verification if extra steps were taken
smickles: mircea_popescu: yeah, the 'riot' was just because of the way nefario presented things
mircea_popescu: the entire notion of allowing anyone to selfserve ipo is sordid.
BTC-Mining: Like actually mailing the claimed address
BTC-Mining: with a code
smickles: it seems to have 'all worked out in the end'
mircea_popescu: there's no fixing that. so you verify a name and an address. so ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.869 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.879 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 4 @ 0.929 = 3.716 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 14 @ 0.95 = 13.3 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: irl banking & finance has > 500 years of history, to this day it's not reached this pinnacle of grandeur where you self-ipo.
mircea_popescu: there;'s a frigging reason. it's called vetting.
smickles: mircea_popescu: yeah, plenty of details
BTC-Mining: You never know how close some investors are, especially in an open market for issuing...
mircea_popescu: dude srsly. you do what ?
mircea_popescu: you drive to the guy's door and ? beat him up ?
BTC-Mining: That's the "so"
mircea_popescu: get sued for it, sell your house ?
Luceo: Why does that mean anything? o.O
Luceo: ciuciu: Why does it matter where he lives? idgi
BTC-Mining: People tend to be fond of their reputation
mircea_popescu: so what, you sit on his porch and scream ?
mircea_popescu: these aren't, if maturely considered, solutions.
Luceo: I can drive to Romania, Canada is ~$1400 flights
Luceo: Who am I more likely to be able to sue? :P
Luceo: Neither, probably.
Luceo: Suing over Bitcoins is totally untested in courts
smickles: geez, i'm in NC and had to sue someone in MO
mircea_popescu: i can sue anyone and everyone. in general once you reach this point you realise how darn few people / corps its worth your time to sue.
mircea_popescu: srsly.
smickles: even that blew ass
dub: GLBSE auth issues?
Luceo: mircea_popescu: That.
BTC-Mining: You could just go beat him up out of nowhere and leave, although it carries risk...
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining who pays for your labour as a thug ?
Luceo: I don't think validating who anyone is means anything, yeah I can sue him but likely my volume isn't going to be enough to justify it
mircea_popescu: if you manage to get away that's like 1k an hour sort of rates.
Luceo: mircea_popescu: Speaking from experience? :P
mircea_popescu: no, from knowledge.
smickles: Luceo: and, you could sue and win, and still get no money
Luceo: smickles: Exactly
mircea_popescu: actually i read but don't recall where that the MAJORITY of suits don't make more money than the cost to sue.
mircea_popescu: which bears out in the experience.
Luceo: I've only sued one person, and he settled out of court
BTC-Mining: Ah, fine, consider it whichever way you want
smickles: ciuciu: if you only do business with people you can meet, you are severely limiting your potential
mircea_popescu: he has no potential.
smickles: Luceo: lucky you. I, otoh, had to deal with the scum of the earth
Azelphur: Luceo: I have an aunt called Sue, we generally say it's a description rather than a name :P
mircea_popescu: hahaha
Luceo: smickles: :(
Luceo: Azelphur: lol I have an aunt called Sue, and likewise >_>
Azelphur: haha
mircea_popescu: o wait, were those your tenants that ruined your place smickles ?
Luceo: But she was a lawyer :P
mircea_popescu: well, honestly, i sued the romanian interior ministry and forced them to friggin change the laws
Azelphur: haha, my aunt just phones up and shouts at people and cites the multiple ways in which she's going to sue them until she gets her way
Azelphur: xD
Luceo: oh lol, my aunt was a corporate lawyer :P
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50046 @ 0.00037911 = 18.9729 BTC [-]
Luceo: And her husband was a banker lol
mircea_popescu: it wasn't easy nor cheap, but in the end worth it. nevertheless, i tell you, litigations of the nature discussed here are rarely worth it.
smickles: mircea_popescu: yup, those people
Azelphur: haha
smickles: ciuciu: what a coincidence, i too manage over 1000btc of others
smickles: er
smickles: 2000
mircea_popescu: at least nao lol
Luceo: I manage very little of others' money! :D
Luceo: And I'm glad for it
Azelphur: smickles: and like 1/4 of that is mine, haha
mircea_popescu: jsut your aunt sue's right ?
BTC-Mining: 2000? Not bad
mircea_popescu: o you got dough in mpoe.etf Azelphur ?
smickles: and i'm glad to have your confidence Azelphur
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: SS
Azelphur: :D
mircea_popescu: a a
mircea_popescu: ya, how;s that going ? haven't seen the other s guy in a while
BTC-Mining: I wonder if I should manage a fund.
Azelphur: it's just kinda quietly ticking over really
Azelphur: it's weird all the hype has died down
mircea_popescu: was a sort of arb bot right ?
BTC-Mining: I think a mining operation is sufficient.
Azelphur: but it's still performing exactly as they said it was
mircea_popescu: or was that with shakurur ?
Azelphur: SS? nah it's spread out deposits with banks
Azelphur: with a small insurance
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining mining is dead louise.
smickles: ciuciu: i was just pointing out a coincidence :/
BTC-Mining: Mining ain't dead
dub: ciuciu: you really haven't said anything except quoting a particularly retarded mod on a wholey retarded forum
BTC-Mining: fixed rate bonds are dead
mircea_popescu: hmm mebbe.
dub: ciuciu: which only serves to make you look kinda retarded yourself
Azelphur: re the forum, has anyone thought about forking it?
mircea_popescu: o god.
mircea_popescu: if someone would make a decent forum...
Azelphur: there was one guy who was thinking of doing it, but it seems a bit, well...terrible
Luceo: I'll make a decent forum
BTC-Mining: Which forum?
Luceo: ONE DAY
Luceo: >_>
usagi: Ciuciu no offense but psy is a troll
mircea_popescu: no conditions to be able to joi, but instaban for being dumb.
Luceo: What would be counted as decent?
mircea_popescu: ^^
usagi: Psy attacks anyone and anything including me
usagi: for next to no reason
Luceo: Psy must like me
usagi: And you're new here too, aren't you? I mean you just came here last month?
Luceo: idk, he hasnt attacked me yet
mircea_popescu: psy managed to get on irc ?!
Azelphur: Luceo: the people who run it really make a forum what it is, have a set of clearly laid out guidelines
usagi: Maybe you should hold off on the scammer accusations
usagi: So post the link
Azelphur: Luceo: there was a guy who was messaging me the other day he made a forum, he keeps spamming everywhere with it, and he made luke a mod
Luceo: lol
mircea_popescu: lol
Luceo: Its cool I'll make RS a mod
mircea_popescu: luke is gonna sell his btc for $25 soon and you'll all be sorry.
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: and then donate it all to the church :P
Luceo: Azelphur: I've fallen in love with OpenBSD
mircea_popescu: straight to the pope baby.
Luceo: >_<
Azelphur: Luceo: :D
Luceo: This OS is just perfect :P
usagi: Ok, and now everybody knows. We can all go check it out.
usagi: Thanks ciuciu.
usagi: It's a matter of public record now.
mircea_popescu: Azelphur why do you steal people from debian you zealot!
Luceo: Permission not to care >_<
usagi: Mircea: Serious question. This link has the word DEFAULT in it. http://www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=PoliMedia.us
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: wat
usagi: Have you DEFAULTED on anything recently?
Luceo: mircea_popescu: Azelphur didn't steal me :P
mircea_popescu: lmao
Azelphur: indeed xD
usagi: Because if you have....
usagi: You are in big trouble!
mircea_popescu: polimedia (srl) is in fact my company.
Azelphur: I don't even use bsd, I'm a Ubuntu person
usagi: Seriously though, how does this make mircea a scammer?
mircea_popescu: the tax # is 22530016 and it's operating today as the first day.
usagi: I don't get it
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: can I call you Martha in future
Luceo: www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=fennec.name Like srsly I must be a scammer -_-
mircea_popescu: no, that's my cto.
usagi: It's just a domain name reg
Azelphur: :(
mircea_popescu: you can call her martha tho.
usagi: Look, if you go hunting on me you will discover I have registered domains in the name of cartoon characters
Luceo: usagi: Me too
usagi: That doesn't make me a scammer, it makes me anonymous.
Luceo: MtGox want me to prove my name is Miles 'Tails' Prower :(
mircea_popescu: no but srsly. the woman is my cto, it's her darned job to register domains wtf.
Luceo: They don't believe me
Ignatius-otc: I have a few in the names of characters in science fiction books
smickles: usagi, you crack me up. now i have a backlog of lines to read in this channel
mircea_popescu: this chan actually is very sprightly of late.
Luceo: And idk what I'm going to do when StartSSL asks me to prove I'm Kim Jong-il, I mean he fucking died >_<
Ignatius-otc: ciuciu do you have any evidence aside from the dns info?
smickles: mircea_popescu: if polimedia is, as you state, your company. then surely you can show me a pic of the company's logo/name on a bumpersticker which is itself on a pair of tits
Luceo: ^ And ugly tits don't count
mircea_popescu: <Azelphur> it's weird all the hype has died down << you know i think there's a forum rule that only crappy investments can have hype.
Azelphur: haha
mircea_popescu: lmao...
Luceo: Send it to me, I can get someone to translate from Romanian
mircea_popescu: i could send you the pic on tits i think.
Azelphur: SS just basically sits there quietly, continually putting out and performing within expected parameters
mircea_popescu: o wait.
mircea_popescu: you saw that pic didn't you.
Azelphur: the terrifying one of you?
smickles: :)
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: no, some pic of a juicy pair of tits
Luceo: The one on the bitvps photo book?
mircea_popescu: nono
Luceo: Is this a really complex form of
Luceo: 'tits or gtfo'?
mircea_popescu: lol wtf where did i put it.
smickles: i probably have it in archive somewhere /me starts lookin'
mircea_popescu: ahaha guise!
mircea_popescu: google poliboobs.jpg in images.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4154 @ 0.00037911 = 1.5748 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5865 @ 0.00038561 = 2.2616 BTC [+]
smickles: lol
Azelphur: that's one way to advertise
Azelphur: xD
Luceo: :D
mircea_popescu: i intend to do a party, have all the girls politopless.
mircea_popescu: AND NONE OF YOU CAN COME.
Luceo: /r/ invite
Luceo: zomg :o
Azelphur: lol
Luceo: Who cares about ID?
Luceo: idc if his name's John Smith, and he lives in China
Luceo: -_-
Luceo: ;;getrating mircea_popescu
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. User mircea_popescu, rated since Fri Jul 22 08:04:26 2011. Cumulative rating 76, from 37 total ratings. Received ratings: 36 positive, 1 negative. Sent ratings: 40 positive, 2 negative. Details: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=mircea_popescu
Luceo: ^ Worth more than ID
Ignatius-otc: agree
mircea_popescu: wait, the plot thickens. i think maybe it's an impostor ?
smickles: ;;gpg info mircea_popescu
gribble: User 'mircea_popescu', with keyid 8A736F0E2FB7B452, fingerprint 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452, and bitcoin address None, registered on Fri Jul 22 05:39:10 2011. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=mircea_popescu . Currently not authenticated.
Ignatius-otc: oh...new negative...indeed
Luceo: Does he?
mircea_popescu: sadly the otc has one flaw
assbot: [GLBSE] [PUREMINING] 2 @ 0.15439999 = 0.3088 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: noobs like rg that do 10000 five bucks trades are rated +500
mircea_popescu: and whales like me that do > 10k per trade are like, 11.
smickles: Daniel Folkinshteyn? relly?
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 400 @ 1 = 400 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what about nano ?
Luceo: mircea_popescu: The flaw is that stupid people don't read the descriptions of the trades :P
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 1 @ 0.009201 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 2 @ 0.00915 = 0.0183 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 445 @ 0.0091 = 4.0495 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: as any perfect system , the wot is only as good as the tech using it
mircea_popescu: much akin linux.
Luceo: No system is perfect
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 6 @ 0.1239 = 0.7434 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: don't be a hater :D
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.B] 200 @ 1 = 200 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 2 @ 1.0389 = 2.0778 BTC [-]
Luceo: usagi: I lol every time I see that asset name >_>
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3881 @ 0.00039395 = 1.5289 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6199 @ 0.00036805 = 2.2815 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17359 @ 0.00036632 = 6.3589 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60500 @ 0.00036497 = 22.0807 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2061 @ 0.000335 = 0.6904 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 2 @ 1.039 = 2.078 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 1 @ 0.1239 BTC [-]
rg: mircea_popescu: most of my trades are over $100
mircea_popescu: :D
mircea_popescu: how you doin' rg ?
rg: one person buys my lunch every day
rg: and hes had the same rating from me
rg: for ages
mircea_popescu: i was just being an ass omg!
smickles: is it just me, or is this an insanely good buy?
smickles: http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=O.HASH.P10TH
mircea_popescu: its not th/s
smickles: alright, maybe not 'insanely good'
mircea_popescu: i forget the formula that turns hash into money
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 1 @ 0.1048 BTC [+]
smickles: but still, it's like where you bot prices at is right at where the projected diffToBTC rate come out at, and we're in a strong uptrend on the difficulty
mircea_popescu: it's not my bot, it's a 3rd party.
smickles: orly
mircea_popescu: ((bReward * firstDiffTime * MhBond * 10^6)/((firstDiff * 2^32)))+((bReward * secondDiffTime * MhBond * 10^6)/((secondDiff * 2^32)))
mircea_popescu: lettuce see
usagi: What name Luceo? TYGRR PEE?
mircea_popescu: .py ((50 * 10000000000000)/((2190866 * 2^32)))
markac: 114110961
usagi: How about THUNDERCM.MIF.SHARES
usagi: Or BITCOIN-ASS or whatever it's called
mircea_popescu: seems about right no ?
mircea_popescu: i mean
usagi: Every time I see TYGRR.BOND-PI I think of Magnum P.I.
mircea_popescu: .py (50 * 10^12)/(2190866 * 2^32)
markac: 0
mircea_popescu: .py (50 * 10^12)/(2190866.0 * 2^32)
markac: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for ^: 'float' and 'int'
smickles: **
smickles: right?
mircea_popescu: .py 1.0*(50 * 10^12)/(2190866 * 2^32)
markac: 0.000115023849191
mircea_popescu: mmm py is rounding badly.
mircea_popescu: i got 0.005313667
assbot: [GLBSE] [CIUCIU.BOND] 1 @ 0.099 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: so the bot seems to think the diff will up a lot.
mircea_popescu: i guess ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1 BTC [+]
smickles: mircea_popescu: hmm, i think i used a different method to value it or something
smickles: lemme check my notes
mircea_popescu: but i mean it's block * hashes by diff times 2^32 no ?
mircea_popescu: << kinda noob in mining.
mircea_popescu: o no wait! the value is like 0.005. and the option says :
mircea_popescu: What this means is that the holder of one option has the right (but not the obligation) to sell 10 Th (that's ten thousand billion hashes, or approximately 2.77 Gh/s running for one hour) for 0.075 BTC
mircea_popescu: so if you sell for 0.075 something worth 0.005 then the sale itself should be worth 0.07
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 14549 @ 0.00113771 = 16.5525 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: hmm
mircea_popescu: mnono! it's 10th so 10^13!
mircea_popescu: thus, the insta value is like .05 and the value is .075 so naturally the bot values around .025
assbot: [GLBSE] [STANDARD.5.50] 1000 @ 0.0001 = 0.1 BTC [+]
smickles: mircea_popescu: there we are. but my point is, given the current ust/btc price history, the amount of hashes on the network has yet to catch up
smickles: s/current/recent/
smickles: so... the diff rate will likely only go higher
mircea_popescu: well possibly
smickles: so, the value of a hash will likely only go lower
mircea_popescu: mno
mircea_popescu: Difficulty 2190866
mircea_popescu: Estimated 2191980 in 1926 blks
mircea_popescu: see, i think 1,9k blocks is past the option expiry.
mircea_popescu: how many days is 1926 blocks ?
mircea_popescu: .py 1926 / 6 / 24
markac: 13
mircea_popescu: mno. well i dunno wtf.
smickles: oh well, i bought it much earlier at a much lower price anywoy
smickles: ;D
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: was it priced lower earlier !?
mircea_popescu: on the graph price seems to have mostly been falling
smickles: mircea_popescu: as low as 0.00861487
mircea_popescu: mmm was that last month ?
smickles: must have been, however
smickles: it wasn't much higher at the beginning of this month
mircea_popescu: well ya, but these are options you see.
mircea_popescu: i think it musta been.
mircea_popescu: you sure you didn't get C ?
smickles: O.HASH.P10TH x 100
smickles: not many, but i'm a small fry
smickles: and this was my firs buy on those things
mircea_popescu: ;;ident smickles
gribble: Nick 'smickles', with hostmask 'smickles!~smickles@184.154.30.40', is not identified.
assbot: [GLBSE] [YARR] 3 @ 1.59 = 4.77 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: well, maybe they were cheaper earlier i dunno.
smickles: ah, this is what i get for bragging to the guy who runs the system
mircea_popescu: lol what did you get ?
smickles: heh, i thought you were checking up on me
smickles: i dunno, it doesn't make sense. it's the weekend, and i drink on the weekend
mircea_popescu: diff before was 2036671.08869332
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN] 1 @ 0.99 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: so ya, it jumped you made monyz.
mircea_popescu: its how they werk.
assbot: [GLBSE] [PUREASIC] 2 @ 0.7 = 1.4 BTC [+]
smickles: heh, yeah, i was confident that i'd make monyz when i made the buy
smickles: i meant, i thought you were looking up in you database to verify when and at what price i bought them at
mircea_popescu: o
mircea_popescu: haha i dun really care.
assbot: [GLBSE] [BBBB] 130 @ 0.00027 = 0.0351 BTC [+]
smickles: yeah, 2 glasses of wine will make me think the whole world revolves around my thoughts
smickles: lol
mircea_popescu: so did gigavps get his minis/rigs in the end ?
BTC-Mining: He got them a long time ago...
BTC-Mining: Must have been months
mircea_popescu: did he make a nice site for them like
mircea_popescu: http://gigamining.com/mgpumon/ ?
BTC-Mining: No idea actually
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 1 @ 1.039 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but ya diff jumped 33% past ~4 months
mircea_popescu: in strict depreciation terms all mining assets that didn't make at least 9% per month are a net loss.
BTC-Mining: Mining equipment is bought in USD &/or other fiat.
mircea_popescu: yeah...
mircea_popescu: i forgot that
mircea_popescu: 33% depreciation through diff rate increase and 50% depreciation through btc appreciation
BTC-Mining: Considering that Difficulty is behind the price raise... well you'd have been better off keeping BTC
mircea_popescu: all mining assets that didn't make 20% per month past 3 mionths are a net loss.
mircea_popescu: yup.
BTC-Mining: I meant that by investing in equipment with a fixed USD value, you want returns that can buy you more equipment.
BTC-Mining: and technically, the mining/equipment has raised in USD value
BTC-Mining: Hence why we're undergoing a sudden rapid difficulty growth
BTC-Mining: Still, you'd get more having kept your bitcoins
BTC-Mining: As I see it, if bitcoin prices soars, you'd be better off keeping them (although you still earn more as difficulty adapt). If prices drop, you have too much hashing per price and returns decrease
BTC-Mining: As such, a stable fiat to BTC rate would seem better
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.95 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 4 @ 0.96 = 3.84 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 2 @ 0.96777 = 1.9355 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: At least ASIC is the last step and large price/hashing changes should be behind us from now on
BTC-Mining: Lowering slowly as ASICs become more performant
Luceo: usagi: That one too :P
Luceo: But mostly your nyan assets :P
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 2 @ 1.08 = 2.16 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITNODES] 1 @ 0.25 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining it would, yes.
Luceo: ASICs on 32nm should still be a significant jump
Luceo: or 28nm
mircea_popescu: or maybe even 22nm when that happens.
mircea_popescu: i think they have working prototypes already
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 50 @ 0.1 = 5 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 10 @ 0.1200001 = 1.2 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 19 @ 0.12 = 2.28 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 10 @ 0.12 = 1.2 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100303.0 food for thought.
mircea_popescu: if anyone cares to weigh in.
assbot: [GLBSE] [GMVT-BOT] 2 @ 0.1 = 0.2 BTC [-]
smickles: mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98491.40 get your pr lady to point out that it's not 'the best time to sell in a year', it's the best time to buy puts in a year
mircea_popescu: haha ty.
mircea_popescu: i might have cause of name reference
smickles: nanotube: you were mentioned as not being a thief and a lier, iirc
nanotube: smickles: oh, that's good :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00039367 = 11.1015 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15700 @ 0.00038343 = 6.0199 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16800 @ 0.00037284 = 6.2637 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: nanotube is just very small
mircea_popescu: how can something that small be a thief ? you'd accidentallty smush it midrobbery
nanotube: someone's buying some s.mpoe eh.
nanotube: haha
mircea_popescu: it's been going back and forth.
mircea_popescu: aww you can't be on 24/7
smickles: the order should have been placed and waiting :/
mircea_popescu: black swan event, keeps money locked up
smickles: i'll have to ask copumpkin if that 'event' was him cashing out
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 1 @ 1.039 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: o hehe, is he that rich ?
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: probably :P
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob : speaking of the bonds you or i can invest into, afaik the only such in btcworld are the MPOE bonds. care to go through them with me to check this theory ?
BTC-Mining: mircea, for example, gigamining share holders will be able to pay 0.25 BTC to switch their 1 BTC IPO share (5 mhash each) to 4 shares (25 mhash each) for 20x the hashing.
BTC-Mining: when ASICs are out
BTC-Mining: and there is already over 0.30 BTC paid back per share
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.1YR.LOAN] 3 @ 0.98076923 = 2.9423 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining still not a bond, sounds more like a sort of stock option ?!
BTC-Mining: Not to count difficulty was relatively stable before bitcoin prices raised
mircea_popescu: yes but as the guy rightly points out, in order for something to be a bond it needs to meet some criteria.
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 2 @ 1.039 = 2.078 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: these are 1. fixed principal and 2. maturity date.
mircea_popescu: absent either it ain't a bond.
BTC-Mining: Well, he had GPUs, but he bought a lot of FPGA which is tradable for the new ASICs from BFL
mircea_popescu: i think he still has the gpus
BTC-Mining: So for that part, upgrade was already paid by investors
BTC-Mining: yeah, but he'll have to lose them with raising difficulty
mircea_popescu: maybe so.
mircea_popescu: none of this is really germane to the issue tho.
mircea_popescu: if i lend you a car i haven't sold you it, i've lent you it
mircea_popescu: if i tack on the option for you to turn it into an airplane
mircea_popescu: it's still not a sale.
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 2 @ 1.02 = 2.04 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 2 @ 1.01 = 2.02 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1.001 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 74 @ 1 = 74 BTC [-]
BTC-Mining: Well yes and no. It's technically a sale of power, but the equipment is managed by Gigavps who has a margin vs what he gets with what people paid.
mircea_popescu: ...
mircea_popescu: but he makes no representation he will return a certain btc value at a certain future date.
BTC-Mining: He could do it that way: I've sold you a contract for X mhash. Equipment remains mine, and I'll trade it for 20x more mhash, but won't give you anything
BTC-Mining: Or he could go: Well you did pay for the equipment I'm trading in. I'll raise to Y mhash on those contracts and keep a similar margin
mircea_popescu: yes, it could be a bond in the very tenuous theory where hash power is a currency
mircea_popescu: except i don't think it is.
BTC-Mining: It is a bond, that's where you see the community is small and run by single individuals.
BTC-Mining: I can hardly see a corporate entity acting like this
mircea_popescu: i don't take your meaning ?
BTC-Mining: They've sold a contract for X something, it will stay a contract for X something.
mircea_popescu: yes, but unless its for X something money it's not a bond.
BTC-Mining: They wouldn't upgrade to Y something on the pretense X something is now upgradable
BTC-Mining: Because they sold X, not the underlying equipment that is upgraded
BTC-Mining: All employees within a corporation are employed to get more money for the corporation.
mircea_popescu: a different way to express this would be "the issuers realised how badly they're screwing so called but not really investors
BTC-Mining: Goodwilling decisions are not acceptable, unless otherwise it would tarnish them and cause a loss of revenue
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28700 @ 0.00037759 = 10.8368 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: and by the theory you can fleece a sheep many times but skin him only once, are now sweetening the deal"
BTC-Mining: Well in any case, mining so far has been constantly profitable. And so far I see no real loss for any long term miners. GPUs can be resold, although if you bought just before FPGA/ASICs, it's pretty much a loss.
mircea_popescu: hey, i've made profits too, but the point remains : they aren't really bonds.
BTC-Mining: Indeed
mircea_popescu: they're in fact very sophisticated financial instruments
mircea_popescu: that people in general aren't capable to correctly value.
BTC-Mining: Well yes, indeed
mircea_popescu: im not arguing that "they're bad" or anything.
mircea_popescu: im just saying, its NOT something random q citizen comprehends.
BTC-Mining: The contract is that of a bond, but the issuers (at least the most reputable ones in the bitcoin community) decided not to leave them as fixed bonds.
BTC-Mining: They are more like floating bonds moving up and down according to the operation's state I suppose.
mircea_popescu: they are somewhat like floating bonds except really they're more like floating warrants
mircea_popescu: which as far as i know was never yet used irl
mircea_popescu: and if someone tried the house/sec./etc would have a weeklong fit
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 10 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0011 BTC [+]
noagendamarket: Its like issuing a bond on a used car ...
BTC-Mining: warrant? It's not optional, it's quite simply a direct weekly coupon for X mhash of mining... seems like a floating coupons bond...
noagendamarket: its never going to increase in value :)
mircea_popescu: well in theory it's principal backing is that you have the option to directly realise your underlying mh/s
mircea_popescu: (by selling the bond and buying the machinery)
mircea_popescu: you don't have capital per se
mircea_popescu: your only semblance of capital is this "option"
mircea_popescu: which is really virtual anyway
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN] 10 @ 0.99999999 = 10 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: I'm just not following you on that last bit...
mircea_popescu: noagendamarket actually if the asic companies run off with everyone's money it might increase
mircea_popescu: btc-mining lemme elaborate :
mircea_popescu: if i hold a treasury my ownership extends over a certain sum of us$.
mircea_popescu: if i own a mining "bond" my ownership extends over no sum of us$ or btc
BTC-Mining: Ah, true, true
mircea_popescu: my only ownership is over the theoretical output of a theoretical machine
mircea_popescu: so it's a "sort of" warrant for that machine
mircea_popescu: which is never physically settled, yes, but by the cash value
mircea_popescu: but yea, it's really very contorted to define in fiat-terms what a mining "bond" is.
BTC-Mining: A bond is a loan, it's tied to pay coupons AND pay back the full principal
mircea_popescu: "floating coupon virtual warrant" FCVW for instance...
mircea_popescu: yes.
BTC-Mining: Ah, who started with giving those the name "bond" to start with?
mircea_popescu: im not even sure. maybe bitbond ?
mircea_popescu: i think giga got it from amazingr.
noagendamarket: A mining bond means you pay the operator for priviledge of loaning them money :)
mircea_popescu: lol
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.BTCST.PPT] 1 @ 1.0444 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MU] 1 @ 0.5099 BTC [+]
BTC-Mining: Well I have an actual mining copurchase shares on offer for those interested in less random things than mining "bonds"
mircea_popescu: anyway im really curious what the guy has to say. wake up bobby!!!
assbot: [GLBSE] [BMMO] 3 @ 0.108997 = 0.327 BTC [+]
coingenuity: imo, unless there is some kind of web of trust for bitcoin funded assets, its a moot argument to me :P
noagendamarket: that has good and bad points :)
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 2000 @ 0.00109966 = 2.1993 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1000 @ 0.00110903 = 1.109 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: coingenuity isnt there ?!
coingenuity: not to my highly untrained eye
coingenuity: i've just heard something about some defaulting securities on the forum
BTC-Mining: How would you achieve such a thing as a web of trust for assets?
mircea_popescu: a well, glbse.
mircea_popescu: on MPEx every lister is in the wot.
coingenuity: heh
mircea_popescu: simple : don't allow the riffraff to ipo.
coingenuity: ^
BTC-Mining: Fact of the matter is, anyone can join GLBSE
mircea_popescu: you don't have children when you're 3
mircea_popescu: you don't ipo as a dood that doesn't even know what gpg is.
coingenuity: right, or IPO something without assets or history
mircea_popescu: there's a progression.
mircea_popescu: an ipo is the pinnacle of a career, not a sophomore year project.
BTC-Mining: and many issuers are not only anonymous, but they want people to invest in a half done website/business
noagendamarket: yes they do :/
coingenuity: yup
coingenuity: i wont touch it, for one
BTC-Mining: You can find thousands of "personal startups" websites outside of bitcoin world and they almost fail 100%
mircea_popescu: i think markac would round that to 100.0
mircea_popescu: he only has like 8 decimals.
BTC-Mining: I see no reason to see any difference for bitcoins
noagendamarket: or they pay dividends for a short while from IPO funds then run off :/
noagendamarket: feelsgoodman.jpg
mircea_popescu: how many times has that happened ?
mircea_popescu: i think i counted 10 ? 20 ?
noagendamarket: something like that
mircea_popescu: noagendamarket btw, have we traded ? the name sure is familiar.
BTC-Mining: I somehow managed to get BTC-Mining out of the low volume, numerous new issues that keep popping up.
noagendamarket: mircea_popescu no we havent. I havent traded otc for a long time.
BTC-Mining: Like someone on the forum said, it takes quite a bit of seeding and efforts to get an issue going.
mircea_popescu: ya it would have been last year
mircea_popescu: my memory is not THAT BAD yet, current year i still can access fine
noagendamarket: lol
noagendamarket: I feel old :/
coingenuity: noagendamarket: its ok bro
coingenuity: i remember sub $1 btc
mircea_popescu: i never was around for that
noagendamarket: I remeber sub 10 cents btc :)
mircea_popescu: i bought my first btc for $15 lol
coingenuity: and then it suddently started going from $2->$5 ->$20
mircea_popescu: and guess what! I STILL HAVE THEM
mircea_popescu: never realised that loss, so...
coingenuity: heh
noagendamarket: baller :)
mircea_popescu: :D
mircea_popescu: was like, 60 btc, 15 $ each, 1k wham
noagendamarket: wish id bought those 10 000 btc for $50 now :D
mircea_popescu: my first day haha. after vragnaroda got me to sit still for long enough to comprehend why gpg wot is a good idea
coingenuity: ouch X_X\
BTC-Mining: Everyone does
mircea_popescu: REBATE 1500@0.1249
noagendamarket: I regret sending Bruce Wagner the first twitter message about bitcoin :D
mircea_popescu: ouch, did someone just get pwned ?
noagendamarket: yes they did
noagendamarket: REBATE is fusked and so is Zipconf
mircea_popescu: wasn't it frozen ?!
noagendamarket: apparently
mircea_popescu: hmm, maybe it's the buyback ?
noagendamarket: nefario fat fingered it lol
mircea_popescu: http://consciouslifenews.com/wikileaks-bombshell-trapwire-surveillance-spy-networ/1134041/
mircea_popescu: o this is juicy.
BTC-Mining: noagendamarket: You know what's worse? I'm sure plenty of early adopters from the first months who were mining them a plenty deleted their wallet and left because their thousands of bitcoins were worth a few measly cents
BTC-Mining: back even before mtgox
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure
mircea_popescu: has anyone done a count of money that has not moved since the mtgox failure ?
mircea_popescu: cause that's prolly an important value, seeing how its really 21 mn - that.
noagendamarket: I wonder if satoshi ever used mt gox lol
BTC-Mining: I got to repair that hole in the screening... night bugs keep entering and go for my screen
mircea_popescu: i bet satoshi never did sell a single bitcoin.
BTC-Mining: Did he ever mine at all to start with? I suppose so or there wouldn't have been a first few blocks. Unless he found a few people not long before launched, pitched the concept, and they started to mine since day one that the code was released
mircea_popescu: he mined yea
mircea_popescu: but i dont imagien he mined very much, and i dont think he sold any of it
mircea_popescu: for many reasons, including "cant sell your own child" and "can't establish the best price to sell art so can't sell"
mircea_popescu: and notably "want to be anon can't sell".
BTC-Mining: How would you know he mined? No one knew him
mircea_popescu: he mined 1st block
BTC-Mining: first blocks mined might not have been him
mircea_popescu: cause it has custom messate in it
BTC-Mining: The first block cannot be spent
mircea_popescu: but if he mined a block
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 14400 @ 0.00110903 = 15.97 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 300 @ 0.00111116 = 0.3333 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: he prolly mined more than one
BTC-Mining: and is not technically mined
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 7853 @ 0.00108629 = 8.5306 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 8600 @ 0.00108432 = 9.3252 BTC [-]
noagendamarket: Sirius-m probably mined a few
assbot: [GLBSE] [HYDRO.BONDS] 1 @ 1.56 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 4 @ 1.0351 = 4.1404 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 26 @ 1.035 = 26.91 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 1 @ 1.139 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.1YR.LOAN] 5 @ 0.94 = 4.7 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 7 @ 0.1239 = 0.8673 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 20 @ 0.1047 = 2.094 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 30 @ 0.1048 = 3.144 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 388 @ 0.1 = 38.8 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.BTCST.PPT] 8 @ 1 = 8 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.00037602 = 1.5417 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.967 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 10 @ 0.0091 = 0.091 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61300 @ 0.00037699 = 23.1095 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31700 @ 0.00037759 = 11.9696 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7000 @ 0.00039355 = 2.7549 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 150 @ 0.00341224 = 0.5118 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 1125 @ 0.00330779 = 3.7213 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 101 @ 0.00318722 = 0.3219 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 124 @ 0.00303747 = 0.3766 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YARR] 10 @ 1.5 = 15 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YARR] 2 @ 1.50999999 = 3.02 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53000 @ 0.00037955 = 20.1162 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 1 @ 1.0495 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 8 @ 0.1 = 0.8 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 2 @ 1.0495 = 2.099 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 1.099 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [JAH] 10 @ 0.17 = 1.7 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60100 @ 0.0003965 = 23.8297 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGA.CONTRACT] 9 @ 0.168 = 1.512 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 17 @ 0.121 = 2.057 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIB.PIRATE] 3 @ 1.045 = 3.135 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.099 = 0.495 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 195 @ 0.1 = 19.5 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 1 @ 0.1234 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MU] 1 @ 0.5099 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [MU] 1 @ 0.5099 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.1 = 0.5 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.BTCST.PPT] 5 @ 1 = 5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31041 @ 0.0003965 = 12.3078 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 209 @ 0.00037955 = 0.0793 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40153 @ 0.00037786 = 15.1722 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00037523 = 4.2776 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11984 @ 0.00037519 = 4.4963 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42800 @ 0.00037284 = 15.9576 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38200 @ 0.00037093 = 14.1695 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42300 @ 0.00037015 = 15.6573 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30040 @ 0.00036608 = 10.997 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66919 @ 0.00036205 = 24.228 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8839 @ 0.00036202 = 3.1999 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13278 @ 0.000335 = 4.4481 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00033173 = 3.7154 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2678 @ 0.00033135 = 0.8874 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.93 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 456 @ 0.00033135 = 0.1511 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITCOINMINV] 30 @ 0.121 = 3.63 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 1 @ 0.445 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 4 @ 1.0481 = 4.1924 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 8 @ 1.048 = 8.384 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 2 @ 0.4495 = 0.899 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: EskimoBob you about?
EskimoBob: mmm
assbot: [GLBSE] [FOO.PPPPT] 3 @ 1.082 = 3.246 BTC [+]
usagi: YARR paid!
mircea_popescu: o there he is
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.1MHS] 31 @ 0.1 = 3.1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.1MHS] 16 @ 0.1 = 1.6 BTC [+]
usagi: hi
usagi: i am going to sleep soon
mircea_popescu: sleep well.
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 2 @ 0.1203 = 0.2406 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 4 @ 1.0494 = 4.1976 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 9 @ 0.1234 = 1.1106 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABMC] 4 @ 0.1234 = 0.4936 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 1 @ 0.9 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 4 @ 0.89 = 3.56 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 46 @ 0.1 = 4.6 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 3 @ 1.0495 = 3.1485 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [PUREASIC] 12 @ 0.7 = 8.4 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 5 @ 0.1 = 0.5 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 40 @ 0.1 = 4 BTC [+]
EskimoBob: fasten your seat belts! Nnew! Super cool! GLBSE db melting toy is on it's way :)
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 1 @ 1.139599 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: eh ?
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob did you get my earlier ping ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35633 @ 0.0003266 = 11.6377 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38086 @ 0.00033029 = 12.5794 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 99 @ 1.00000001 = 99 BTC
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 1 @ 1 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 1 @ 1 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 10 @ 1 = 10 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.1 = 0.4 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 5 @ 1.0495 = 5.2475 BTC [+]
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: one from last night?
mircea_popescu: yheah
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: you wanted to look at some securities?
mircea_popescu: yeah.
EskimoBob: OK, lets do it
EskimoBob: you have the list?
mircea_popescu: yep one sec.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/sa-ne-jucam-de-a-investitiile-n-bitcoini/#comment-78745
mircea_popescu: scroll down a little to where it discusses the bonds.
EskimoBob: kakobrekla: let me know when you are done and the lest run few test
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00031962 = 0.7032 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIF.BTCST.PPT] 30 @ 1 = 30 BTC [-]
EskimoBob: interesting read
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 4 @ 1.13121 = 4.5248 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 2 @ 1.13111 = 2.2622 BTC [-]
EskimoBob: the problem with bonds is: I as a bond holder, do not rally "care" so you make or lose money. No matter what happens, you owe me the promised % and you are obligated to return the principal
EskimoBob: now, the moment you make it in to a "if I make you get..." things get more complicated
EskimoBob: lets say you go for a FRN. Yes. part of the coupon (% what you have to pay me) is fluctuating but no matter what, there is still a fixed part of %
EskimoBob: spread is constant no matter what
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob well, yeah. it'd be a twin bond and insurance ?
EskimoBob: you see, you as a bond issuer have to worry about insurance and this will lover the yield but increase the "secure" part of the deal
EskimoBob: FRN will let you pay me a premium % if you do well
EskimoBob: but if you frak up you still have to pay me the spread + principal
mircea_popescu: this is true.
mircea_popescu: still, it'd be a conditional bond
mircea_popescu: "you have 1k usd principal and making this much per month, except in case of war"
mircea_popescu: or, as it really is with bonds, "except in case of default"
EskimoBob: lest me ask this, if you make a killing on a month, do bondholders get something extra?
mircea_popescu: nope.
EskimoBob: so whn do I have to share the loss with you?
EskimoBob: you see the problem here
mircea_popescu: because you set your own %.
EskimoBob: but when you frak up, I get burned
EskimoBob: I share the loss
mircea_popescu: there's no "i frak up tho", it's a math model, it works the same
EskimoBob: but you do not share the bigger than expected gain
mircea_popescu: well it's not an equity deal.
EskimoBob: fuck mat, I am a bond holder :) I do not care. I want mu coupon to buy milk ... LOL
EskimoBob: exactly!
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 2 @ 0.4499 = 0.8998 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: so basically your ideea is that if i bought insurance myself and offered an insured tier too
EskimoBob: if you out a loan, then whn you have a loss, suddenly it acts like we share profit/loss
mircea_popescu: then that'd be a bond, but this bondholder-insured thing is not, for that reason ?
EskimoBob: oops, i deleted parts of it
mircea_popescu: but you're aware that what you describe is exactly what sovereign bonds are.
mircea_popescu: you make x% unless the country fucks up, in which case you make a loss.
EskimoBob: if you get a loan from me, and when you have a loss, suddenly the loan acts like we share profit/loss - quity
EskimoBob: but you used my money - I have the risk
mircea_popescu: and if you had greek bonds ?
EskimoBob: this is the problem with mining turd too
EskimoBob: then write this to the contract so that I get my spread no matter what and if thing go well, you pay me extra % from the gain
EskimoBob: then it's like a FRN
mircea_popescu: from what i can see with mining "bonds"/FCVWs w./e the problem is depreciation is a given
mircea_popescu: you don't know loss will occur on mpoe, actually historically hasn't really so far.
EskimoBob: you see, this is for the equity holders
mircea_popescu: no ?
EskimoBob: hold on for sec.... There is polar bear at my door
kakobrekla: EskimoBob, can you run some tests there
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 500 @ 0.1 = 50 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 6400 @ 0.00109205 = 6.9891 BTC [+]
EskimoBob: OK, I am back
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: you see, bond is a loan. Equity is like lets build some stuff and I'll give you some money. What ever you build, part of it is mine and so are the profits...AFTER! the bonds are paid off (its debt)
EskimoBob: if I lend you money, I do not give a flying f how you earn it back (actually I do but lets keep it simple)
EskimoBob: when the date is up, your friendly loan shark wants hes money + % and that's it
EskimoBob: If I lend you money, I do not want a part of your business. All i want, is my money and %.
EskimoBob: and this is the main difference.
EskimoBob: even if you want me to share the profit, you still have to return the % and principal
EskimoBob: you loss, is yours and this is something you business partner have to talk to you about :) not "me" as a bond holder
EskimoBob: shit where did mircea_popescu go?
EskimoBob: It was all written for him :)
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.1 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P060N] 10 @ 0.05009701 = 0.501 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 1 @ 0.4499 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 9000 @ 0.00109205 = 9.8285 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 2500 @ 0.00109439 = 2.736 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 55 @ 0.1 = 5.5 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 730 @ 0.1 = 73 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 6500 @ 0.00109439 = 7.1135 BTC [+]
copumpkin: EskimoBob: I think several people have tried making that argument to him before :)
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 3840 @ 0.0010947 = 4.2036 BTC [+]
copumpkin: including me
copumpkin: I'll let you judge whether it has worked or not :P
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.1 = 0.4 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 1 @ 0.10485 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 19 @ 0.1 = 1.9 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: here i am EskimoBob
mircea_popescu: you're describing a very teoretical bond. this is how it works in a world with no default.
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.1 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.1 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 4 @ 0.1 = 0.4 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 20 @ 0.1 = 2 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.1 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 15 @ 0.1 = 1.5 BTC [+]
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: default is something else and not what you have there
mircea_popescu: mmm
assbot: [GLBSE] [PPT.E] 1 @ 1.185 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: how ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27061 @ 0.00031359 = 8.4861 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: take the argentinian default.
EskimoBob: did you go under?
mircea_popescu: sovereign bonds, sovereign default.
mircea_popescu: you're thinking corporate bonds.
EskimoBob: no, mot at all
mircea_popescu: so, what did it take for argentine to default ?
EskimoBob: US munis have gone under
mircea_popescu: merely the statement thereof. yeah.
mircea_popescu: greek bondholders took quite the hosing recently. why ? greece is still there
mircea_popescu: plenty of pounds of flesh to be had. where's the flesh ?
EskimoBob: if you lose something on a short/long option deal - do you go under?
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 35 @ 0.1 = 3.5 BTC [+]
smickles: lol, is someone saying that those 'mining bonds' on glbse are actually bonds?
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob by how it's set up, that's what'd be.
EskimoBob: smickles: not anymore with some clueless exceptions :)
mircea_popescu: smickles no, im trying to use mr bob's expertise to sound my own bonds on
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: do not take it personally but I think you need to rewrite it a bit
EskimoBob: I was actually thinking, is there a better way to finance those deals
EskimoBob: and I think there is
mircea_popescu: why'd i take it personalyl ?
mircea_popescu: you don't know me too well i guess, but i am all about finding the best ways to do finance in btc.
EskimoBob: OK, cool . so lets keep at it
smickles: mircea_popescu actually has a record of changing MPEx's insturments when shortcommings are pointed out
EskimoBob: so
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 2 @ 1 = 2 BTC [-]
EskimoBob: only part I did not like is that your bond starts to act like something else when there is a business loss involved
EskimoBob: and that's it
mircea_popescu: it figures :)
EskimoBob: I personally think this is the unfair part
mircea_popescu: to be honest, i originally imaghiend there'd be bankers stepping in to offer insured versions
EskimoBob: because you do not share your gain, when you do well
mircea_popescu: you could easily put a bond into mpoe, and on it offer your own insured bond at a lower %
EskimoBob: as simple as that
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob that's not an exact description, tho.
mircea_popescu: the bondholder gets a share of theoretical gain EACH MONTH
mircea_popescu: irrespective if variance makes the month's gain lower or smaller
mircea_popescu: except in the case where there's no gain
mircea_popescu: (aka, the math model is disproven in fact)
EskimoBob: no, they get the % - the coupon
mircea_popescu: which would be a deal breaker
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4839 @ 0.00031333 = 1.5162 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26900 @ 0.00031727 = 8.5346 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29905 @ 0.00032702 = 9.7795 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: yes, but your % is made of two parts
mircea_popescu: the risk-free part for your capital
EskimoBob: do not confuse your gain as bonds share of your gain
mircea_popescu: and the risk premium
mircea_popescu: so, suppose risk free rate is i dunno, 1% a month ?
mircea_popescu: you get 5%
mircea_popescu: that extra 4% is your share of mpoe gain each month, hands ddown
mircea_popescu: except in the months where mpoe fails [to behave as expected]
EskimoBob: "Although the financiers do not receive any part of profits made by MPOE, their financing is not without risk, because their capital will be used to answer any shortfalls, proportionally. "
EskimoBob: this is the part that fuck it up a bit
mircea_popescu: listen. 5% a month comes to almost 100% a year.
EskimoBob: this is the equity guys problem
mircea_popescu: you can't seriously tell me this is the risk-free rate.
EskimoBob: not the bond holders problem
EskimoBob: this is a different story
mircea_popescu: ok. lets pause for a moment
mircea_popescu: and consider a CD tranche deal.
mircea_popescu: if you buy low tier, will you get hosed ?
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 1 @ 1 BTC [-]
EskimoBob: We are talking about how a good bond operates not what the fair % is
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: im gathering that the main problem here is that i haven't carefully enough sepparated the two parts
mircea_popescu: ie, the insurance premium and the risk free rate,
EskimoBob: the % of coupon is meaningless in this context -- it's X
mircea_popescu: or otherwise, the coupon from the profit participation of the bondholder.
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.B] 2 @ 0.98 = 1.96 BTC [-]
EskimoBob: yes
EskimoBob: if you include a "premium" - aka fixed rate coupon + risk reward, then you have a FRN.
EskimoBob: if you only add " risk reward" if everything is OK,
mircea_popescu: i guess this is so.
EskimoBob: you are missing part of the deal
mircea_popescu: so basically what btc finance needs most atm is an insurer.
EskimoBob: and lets not forget - your proposed "risk reward" is fixed - hence nothing extra, if you do well but I get fucked you you get fucked
smickles: if ppl are buying the things as is, why would mpoe change how they do things to a better way which just happens to be a little worse for mpoe?
EskimoBob: call it mope-note, but not a bond :)
mircea_popescu: smickles it wouldn't be either better or worsde for mpoe, the % would just be smaller.
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob yeah, i guess so.
mircea_popescu: the thing is tho, bear with me. you have a math model that generates say 1%.
EskimoBob: I am not saying taht the instrument you have is bad
smickles: mircea_popescu: so then where would the funds to cover losses come from?
EskimoBob: not at all.
mircea_popescu: but due to variance this could in any given interval be either -x% or +x%
smickles: or am i just not thinking of this correctly
EskimoBob: I am just saying that this is not a bond as we know bonds
mircea_popescu: smickles i could easily issue bonds at a fixed rate and just shrug. it would break the current price discovery mechanism in the mpoe-bond inverse licitations tho
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob that's for sure. in fact nothing in btc is "like we know".
EskimoBob: smickles: in FRN you always have a fixed+floating
mircea_popescu: my curiosity was merely if this is the closest to a bond that we have.
smickles: EskimoBob: but the floating can't be negative, right?
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: yes, until everything is OK
mircea_popescu: at lowest 0
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob you mean for as long as everything is ok ?
EskimoBob: so you default on your coupon but pay back the principal ?
smickles: mircea_popescu: arn't those ppt.X things zero cupon bonds?
mircea_popescu: a those things.
EskimoBob: those are zeros and zeros
copumpkin: what bothers me more about the bonds is how people offering money for lending tie up their money even if mpoe never uses it
mircea_popescu: hmm, i guess it could be argued lol. except...
smickles: copumpkin: +1
copumpkin: I'd also be reluctant to call them bonds
mircea_popescu: copumpkin yeah, it's the #1 complaint i hear. but that's there to ensure competition tho
EskimoBob: copumpkin: and thst why lender MUST be rewarded!
copumpkin: but regardless, I'm not even going to try if there's a chance my money will get tied up for a period without any earnings on it at all
EskimoBob: or this is just no good
copumpkin: what it ensures, from most people I've spoken to, is very little money offered :P
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-PI] 1 @ 1.6 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: well so far it was oversubscribed from what i see.
smickles: mircea_popescu: wouldn't there be competition even w/o the 'tie up'?
copumpkin: mircea_popescu: that doesn't mean there was competition
mircea_popescu: smickles why would there be ?
mircea_popescu: copumpkin how do you figure ?!
EskimoBob: and this part: not getting paid If i did not use it" has to go too :)
EskimoBob: loan is a loan
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob if either of those go i'd have to take out the "pick your own %"
EskimoBob: use it or not - you still pay interest
copumpkin: mircea_popescu: oh, there might have been competition, but not as much as there might have been if you hadn't tied it up :) since many potential competitors might abstain from participating, just because of the risk, even if they were willing to offer low rates
mircea_popescu: and i don't want to, cause imo that's the main value of the entire thing, it allows me to have a mpbor
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: take it out
EskimoBob: you can discount the bond or if they get oversubscribed, sell at premium
EskimoBob: done every day
mircea_popescu: copumpkin i actually am thinking of taking the 5% rate out completely, and let it freefloat.
mircea_popescu: that'll be interesting.
mircea_popescu: how do you mean EskimoBob ?
EskimoBob: simple
EskimoBob: you set the rules when bond will be sold at discount and when at premium
mircea_popescu: it has to be actively managed.
EskimoBob: now you set the date etc
mircea_popescu: this is a big problem in btc cause it opens me up to being charged of various malfeasances.
mircea_popescu: seeing how everyone's anon.
EskimoBob: you sell all bond out at once - and depends, what was the demand, you rise or lower the price
EskimoBob: to get most investors
mircea_popescu: but i only know the demand retrospectively.
EskimoBob: there is no nee dto invent the wheel
EskimoBob: it's all available in the net
mircea_popescu: man. i only need what capital i need in august on august the 31st
mircea_popescu: what do i do, time travel ?
EskimoBob: so you set the date, coupon and maturity and price
EskimoBob: and go from there
mircea_popescu: i think we're talking at crosspurposes.
mircea_popescu: how can i get capital for august 5 on august the 31st ?
EskimoBob: maybe you sell some at discount to secure larger part and those who wait, get shittier price
EskimoBob: no, you need to get it upfront
mircea_popescu: i don't know how much i need upfront.
EskimoBob: make a plan :) honestly
mircea_popescu: i can't.
mircea_popescu: sometimes options sell some other times they do not.
mircea_popescu: how do i plan for the future when the very essence of this future is the unknown ?
copumpkin: same way most companies do? :P
EskimoBob: and now we are at what I told you earlier - bond is not a good way to finance stuff like that
mircea_popescu: copumpkin yeah buit companies have something to go on. i scarcely do.
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob now that's a point.
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: do you wriet the options?
mircea_popescu: well, there's a bot, but it's my bot so yeah.
mircea_popescu: altho people also write their own.
EskimoBob: puts and calls or is there someone else, who writes them (seller)
mircea_popescu: it varies, atm i have written a lot of calls, others wrote a lot of puts.
EskimoBob: so how thy back up their options?
mircea_popescu: they deposit.
EskimoBob: dud, you write calls whn you hope the market drops
mircea_popescu: i write both at all times, at some prices.
mircea_popescu: it is after all a market maker.
EskimoBob: do you let people write so called naked options?
mircea_popescu: nope.
smickles: nope
EskimoBob: do I understand you correclty that you need the funds to cover your options?
mircea_popescu: naked options are the bane of finance.
EskimoBob: naked women too
smickles: EskimoBob: yeah, he holds 'surety' for written options
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob the way mpoe is set-up it's a 0 capital venture. it has no capital of its own.
EskimoBob: and you still have none?
mircea_popescu: all it makes is pushed to shareholders and bondhoders
mircea_popescu: it can never have any.
smickles: well, surety for 'customer writen options'
mircea_popescu: that's the customer's.
EskimoBob: now lets rewind a bit.
EskimoBob: you need to figure out how to accumulate some wroking capital and stop sending it out to share holders and what not
EskimoBob: it's pointless
smickles: i think that's against the business model
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3995 @ 0.00032702 = 1.3064 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 958 @ 0.00033029 = 0.3164 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48200 @ 0.00033304 = 16.0525 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16847 @ 0.00033585 = 5.6581 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: what do you mean "pointless" ?
mircea_popescu: not holding on to money has at least the very good quality of reducing risk.
EskimoBob: is you businesmodel to pay for money you can get for lot less?
mircea_popescu: just look at bitcoinica to understand.
mircea_popescu: yes.
EskimoBob: bitcoinic was a joke
mircea_popescu: if i wanted to run mpoe as a private thing i could have continued to do so, indefinitely.
mircea_popescu: my goal is to develop btc financials tho.
EskimoBob: if you pay less often your divs, do your shareholders income go up or down?
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 100 @ 0.1 = 10 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: they've always been paid monthly.
EskimoBob: as total
mircea_popescu: but i think a laeger share of the price is due to the company/prospects than to the direct dividend.
mircea_popescu: seeing how miner bonds trade at arround 30-35x their dividend and mpoe seems more like 300x
smickles: EskimoBob: down due to loss of timevalue of money
EskimoBob: pass a motion to accumulate some for operations
mircea_popescu: why ?
EskimoBob: oh lets not start that BS especially in a case, where you buy money for more than you have to :)
smickles: his argument is lower operational costs means a higher dividend
mircea_popescu: im not sure i follow this.
EskimoBob: sorry. lets me expl. what I mean
smickles: if mpoe actually held some capital, it wouldn't have to buy money
smickles: or at least not as much
EskimoBob: one more question. have you done any fin planning for a company?
mircea_popescu: yes.
EskimoBob: ok, so this can not be to hard then
EskimoBob: you can plan your options business - yes (no is not accepted :)
mircea_popescu: depends what you mean by plan.
mircea_popescu: if you mean limit then yes.
EskimoBob: yes, this is what I mean. But lets not forget, it can grow too. And this is what you do: you figure out what you can manage per month
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to limit it.
EskimoBob: you use real bond or issue shares to finance it
mircea_popescu: the btc market is by its nature in a position where those liniar assumptions are harmful.
EskimoBob: so you can service your debt
EskimoBob: now,
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob : again, i could easily just use my own capital to finance all of it.
mircea_popescu: it never used more than 10k iirc, and i'm significantly above that, personally.
EskimoBob: so what is your problem? Why do you buy money at some absurd rate?
mircea_popescu: because i want to create a refinance market for btc.
EskimoBob: but you need money to make money :)
mircea_popescu: which currently does not exist.
mircea_popescu: in part because of scam assets like ppt, in part because the boneheaded idiots on the forum are playing ther citizen dentist
mircea_popescu: in part for other reasons.
smickles: mircea_popescu: suppose the 'bonds' people subscribe to were done with a multisig transaction some how where the lender could recall the funds before they are used (or marked for use) by mpoe?
mircea_popescu: but i have done my math and i think i am large enough to push this through.
mircea_popescu: smickles this is already there, people can just notify they want their money back
smickles: ah
mircea_popescu: is kakobrekla gonna start spuirting asset lines now ? :D
smickles: mircea_popescu: is there any way to find out if the funds are going to (or likely to) be used?
mircea_popescu: well, not really. and any way you can't recall them during their current month.
smickles: lol, quick, make a trade !
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu, i added mpex dividend payments to assbot
mircea_popescu: suppose month ends on 28th july, 31st of august
mircea_popescu: if you send money on the 5th of august you can ask for it back on the 20th
kakobrekla: and another feature soon to be revealed
mircea_popescu: but anyway it's not used till the 31st.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla o cool!
mircea_popescu: which is why most people send towards the end of a month.
EskimoBob: i think your model is "upside down"
mircea_popescu: aha ?
EskimoBob: the moment you plan and finance it the other way around, you will have a good bond buyers market
mircea_popescu: mmm. ellaborate on this.
EskimoBob: yes, in this case you need to take the risk but you can plan your exposure for a starting month in options market and start accumulate capital to run it properly
mircea_popescu: "properly"
EskimoBob: if you write options, you can cover your ass well
mircea_popescu: i don't believe we need to try and replicate fiat instruments in btc.
EskimoBob: it's not that big deal - unless you get greedy
mircea_popescu: i believe we need to proceed deductively based on btc principles and come up with functional instruments
smickles: mircea_popescu: what you should do is allow it to automatically purchase and run from algorhithmicaly determined hosting services while also setting up all the manual operations in automatic form. Then, release it like one of those 'lucky lantern' things
mircea_popescu: which, probably, will be very contorted in fiat terms.
mircea_popescu: smickles maybe. except the problem of ipo.
EskimoBob: copy with pride! no need to waste time on inventing wheels
mircea_popescu: trust me, i have no problem copying what works.
mircea_popescu: the issue here is tat most of fiat is rotten to the core and unusable.
EskimoBob: forget the fiat
mircea_popescu: fake floaters. they have a bad reputation in fiat
EskimoBob: you have no need for it in this model
mircea_popescu: for the reason recently discovered : libor was fixed.
mircea_popescu: people always knew libor is shit.
EskimoBob: it's the people, not the instrument :)
kakobrekla: EskimoBob, try it now
kakobrekla: :p
EskimoBob: !pl ZIP.A 500@0.95 2012-07-29
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
assbot: ZIP.A [500@0.95BTC] (since: 2012-07-29) paid: 2.76743 BTC. Last price: 0.51 BTC. Capital gain: -22 BTC. Total: -217.23257 BTC. (-45.7%)
mircea_popescu: !help
EskimoBob: yess! :)
EskimoBob: !pl
assbot: !pl <ticker> [<amount>@]<bought at> [<YYYY-MM-DD>]
kakobrekla: no help mircea_popescu :(
mircea_popescu: ok whats the pl do then ?
EskimoBob: profit loss calc
mircea_popescu: mmm
EskimoBob: !pl GIGAMINING 10@1.145 2012-08-03
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
kakobrekla: !pl gigamining 1
mircea_popescu: !pl GIGAMINING 900@.9 2012-04-15
EskimoBob: i think it needs to send e-mail to nefario every time it waits :)
assbot: GIGAMINING [10@1.145BTC] (since: 2012-08-03) paid: 0.34825 BTC. Last price: 1.139599 BTC. Capital gain: -0.05401 BTC. Total: 0.29424 BTC. (2.6%)
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
mircea_popescu: o wow one at a time huh
kakobrekla: ye
assbot: GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.38322596 BTC. Last price: 1.139599 BTC. Capital gain: 0.139599 BTC. Total: 0.52282496 BTC. (52.3%)
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
kakobrekla: get in line
kakobrekla: :>
assbot: GIGAMINING [900@0.9BTC] (since: 2012-04-15) paid: 344.903364 BTC. Last price: 1.139599 BTC. Capital gain: 215.6391 BTC. Total: 560.542464 BTC. (69.2%)
smickles: mircea_popescu: what? ppl cant hold shares in some autonomous program with no human controller? what's the problem of ipo in that situation?
mircea_popescu: that you can't let random idiots ipo.
smickles: ah
mircea_popescu: once you have to have human hands in there
mircea_popescu: the entire lantern collapses.
mircea_popescu: (just to show you i did consider things there(
smickles: what if it were just an options 'lantern'
EskimoBob: !pl GIGAMINING 2012-08-01
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
mircea_popescu: what if the math model proves it could benefit from some tweaking ?
assbot: GIGAMINING [1@2BTC] paid: 0.38322596 BTC. Last price: 1.139599 BTC. Capital gain: -0.860401 BTC. Total: -0.47717504 BTC. (-23.9%)
kakobrekla: aha
kakobrekla: buggy
EskimoBob: indeed
kakobrekla: lemme fix
EskimoBob: it still uses the date
kakobrekla: yup
kakobrekla: it will spit out error now
mircea_popescu: better make it use defaults than spit error
smickles: mircea_popescu: damn. you'd need some fairly sweet AI
kakobrekla: there is no defaults
mircea_popescu: smickles i just think we're not there yet :p
kakobrekla: with the price
EskimoBob: if no price, use 1 share
EskimoBob: 1 is/can be the default kakobrekla
kakobrekla: it uses one share when no nb shares is specified
kakobrekla: but when no input price
kakobrekla: it will break
kakobrekla: !pl
assbot: !pl <ticker> [<amount>@]<bought at> [<YYYY-MM-DD>]
EskimoBob: OK; I see
kakobrekla: whats in [] is optional
smickles: mircea_popescu: how about the lantern is just the options exchange, the market is made by it's users and your /independant/ market making bot
EskimoBob: you know it only answers to 10 requests form same IP in 60 sec
EskimoBob: or was it 20*?
EskimoBob: 20?
smickles: that way the market maker's code can be updated
EskimoBob: smickles: bots are evil
smickles: EskimoBob: yeah, but we can't leave evil out of sci-fi stuff like this
smickles: besides, the whole thing would be a bot anyway
EskimoBob: but writing rules when somone can and can not write options is not that hard
EskimoBob: or even buy
EskimoBob: and lets not forget the joys of margin trading :)
EskimoBob: all math - no emotions
mircea_popescu: smickles maybe. i think it;s pretty close to that as it is.
smickles: imo, the hard part is getting it to find, acquire, and setup the hosting
smickles: of itself
smickles: OF ITSELF!!!
EskimoBob: you have long term investors, holding large piles of stocks and turds? You can borrow securities and not frack around with bond issues to finance it
mircea_popescu: smickles especially a hosting that won't pull a linode
EskimoBob: all expenses are passed to clients who write options
EskimoBob: risk too :)
mircea_popescu: whazzat EskimoBob ?
EskimoBob: and you keep the collateral
EskimoBob: this is how it's done
mircea_popescu: btw, im curious if anyone owning mining bonds at any point ever owned a perpetual frn.
mircea_popescu: (i have, both, but i mean anyone else)
EskimoBob: you keep their BTC and other sec a collateral if the options start to go rally bad
EskimoBob: there is no frn in GLBSE ... I think.
mircea_popescu: i meant irl.
mircea_popescu: (you can make synthetic frns from a fixed-rate bond like you favour and a swap, you know)
EskimoBob: afk now
smickles: mircea_popescu: i wonder if i'm replicating your database tables, just with different names
mircea_popescu: why that ?
smickles: mircea_popescu: well, i'm making db tables of my own to hold data for mpex sub-accounts
mircea_popescu: ah hehe
mircea_popescu: not unless you include nudie pics.
kakobrekla: !pl GIGAMINING 2012-08-01
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
assbot: Invalid price supplied.
kakobrekla: !pl GIGAMINING 1 2012
assbot: Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
assbot: Ignoring invalid date.
smickles: ok, i should call this thing "smickles' MPEX" or "SMEx" for short
assbot: GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.38322596 BTC. Last price: 1.139599 BTC. Capital gain: 0.139599 BTC. Total: 0.52282496 BTC. (52.3%)
kakobrekla: well its gonna stay like this for now
kakobrekla: its slow as fuck because of glbse
kakobrekla: and 2 seperate calls
kakobrekla: one on site one on api
kakobrekla: meh
mircea_popescu: smex lol
kakobrekla: enjoy
smickles: or SmEX
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it is incredibly slow innit.
kakobrekla: ye
smickles: url: https://mostofmany.com/get/smex
smickles: that will work out great
smickles: (nothing at that url yet)
mircea_popescu: your cert is bad
kakobrekla: spam!
smickles: mircea_popescu: lol, it's the apache default cert
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 8 @ 0.94 = 7.52 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FPGAMINING] 5 @ 0.89 = 4.45 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 1 @ 1 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [GIGAMINING] 4 @ 1.139599 = 4.5584 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 9 @ 1.0495 = 9.4455 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ZETA-MINING] 2 @ 0.2 = 0.4 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 27 @ 1.0498 = 28.3446 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 8500 @ 0.00109162 = 9.2788 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-P] 14 @ 1.0499 = 14.6986 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NASTY] 4 @ 0.545 = 2.18 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BIB.BVPS] 3 @ 0.0044 = 0.0132 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [DMC] 100 @ 0.05 = 5 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [PLATINUM] 5 @ 0.01 = 0.05 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 10 @ 0.1 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 50 @ 0.1 = 5 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lol assbot woke up
assbot: [GLBSE] [RAREEARTH] 1 @ 0.00997 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 30 @ 0.00011485 = 0.0034 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 27 @ 1.08 = 29.16 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [ASIC.COOP] 1 @ 0.65 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTCMC] 4 @ 0.7299 = 2.9196 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTCMC] 3 @ 0.73 = 2.19 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTCMC] 1 @ 0.78999999 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BTCMC] 2 @ 0.79 = 1.58 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: backlog cleared :p
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16590 @ 0.00033585 = 5.5718 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7110 @ 0.00033872 = 2.4083 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.HASH.P10TH] 85000 @ 0.02208546 = 1877.2641 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [BDK.BND] 9 @ 0.102748 = 0.9247 BTC [+]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TEEK.B] 1 @ 1.09 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [YABIF] 1 @ 1 BTC [-]
assbot: [GLBSE] [TYGRR.BOND-PI] 1 @ 1.6 BTC [-]