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danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, I don't understand your logic here. Even your criticism of znort's reputation is addressed in my copy. But whatever I'll just post it on my own blog

BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: ANyways where again were the lulz in "Heroic Jap Stationwagon Swats Traffic Disrupting Pedelarast" I still haven't found it.

ben_vulpes: so i'm flattening and rebuilding this barely-used macbook pro, and frames of animated language names scrolling sideways on the "what language" screen are tearing

asciilifeform: note that i no longer intend to use mpi for anything. it was posted as a deautomakeification demo.

BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Qntra pointedly tells republic news to the outside, BUT znort does not at this time have a relation to anyone I know such that his signature carries more weight than rando unsigned pastebins

danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, what is the point of qntra? is it soley to bring non-republic news ~in~ or can it also be to tell republic news to the outside? I think it is certainly news that the new owner of bitbet is taking the time to speak in public (this channel)

a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 16:40 phf: asciilifeform: that attention from fundraiser and marketing that gabriel_laddel was so excited about ~obviously~ attracted not talent, but the usual modernizer suspects. i'm reading their channel logs and marvel. ☟︎

phf: i like that story i read on livejournal long time ago. this soviet guy was telling, so he's sent to forced farming на посевы, bunch of guys digging for potatoes, middle of fucking nowhere. and then there's news, some deposed aristocrat is sent to join, so naturally jokes all around, since the toilet is a mess (it's a bunch of guys!) "how's his excellency going to use the facilities справлять нужду" "probably unaccustomed to working

asciilifeform: when i move into a house, demanding 'yes this place WILL have a toilet or no deal' != 'i just want to!'

phf: i'm just hoping nobody's going to do a fundraiser for it. thank god gabriel_laddel hasn't discovered it yet

phf: asciilifeform: nobody's asking you, this is for people who want a fixer-upper. you don't want to use cmucl either, because it's half baked. it does feel just a tad "i just want to", but i can't necessarily fault you for it

asciilifeform: and accept behaviour that i will not accept from microshit.

asciilifeform: but what i am ~not~ willing to do is to close eyes and play pretend

asciilifeform: phf: if we discover that the only way to have a usably snappy clim is custom iron, i am willing to consider custom iron.

asciilifeform: and if i wanted to use a gui where i can sit and WATCH IT REDRAW, i will use microshit word.

phf: bordeaux-threads stopped building with my asdf1, i checked, someone hardcoded >3.11 check, with ~no purpose for it~. next thing i know i read "<jackdaniel> [04:44:30] but don't use clim's mp, I've reimplemented it on top of bordeaux-thread just for backward compatibility" on #clim

asciilifeform: i won't use a gui that ignores mouse wheel.

phf: asciilifeform: that attention from fundraiser and marketing that gabriel_laddel was so excited about ~obviously~ attracted not talent, but the usual modernizer suspects. i'm reading their channel logs and marvel. ☟︎

asciilifeform: phf: eons have passed since i last could be arsed to read clim. what happened ?

a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 16:31 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: also, I'm not taking thousands in donations. jackdaniel is being paid several k to work on CLIM

phf: come to think of me my laptop runs without swap, because i mucked with write permissions on mac os x's swap file, but it's not ever a problem at 16gb

shinohai: You can't even build prb without setting a swap space. Or at least I haven't been successful yet.

asciilifeform: i can see using swap on a 486 with 8M, where it makes the diff between being able to load emacs and not.

mircea_popescu: i thought it said so in the linux manual cca 1996, "linux can not be run without swap. don't even try."

mircea_popescu: eh i'm surprised it works at all.

asciilifeform: fwiw i have yet to see postgres crash. but there is always a time for a first.

phf: oh i think maybe it's a memory issue :D i'm running it on a $5 512mb instance

phf: i suspect not

mircea_popescu: phf i dun think that ever happened to trilema.

phf: speaking of wordpress, mysql keeps consistently crashing. i don't think i've had a unix daemon crash on me in the recent memory, this is a first

asciilifeform: now that mircea_popescu mentioned it, i recall an 'elaborate bots' thread.

asciilifeform: (e.g., lengthy browsing of what i consider 'interesting' pages on the site previously)

asciilifeform: phf: at one point i got 1,001 of these daily

asciilifeform: phf: i guessed as much.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought it was called 'rubbish island'

mircea_popescu: incidentally, the only thing i can think re "digitalocean" is that place in the pacific where there's a trillion little bits of plastic, ground down by wind and sun over the decades.

phf: dat latency, digitalocean has been running on a generator and a modem past few days i think

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526708 << i had nothing to do with this, for all i know it's lizard hitler's a111 ☝︎

phf: diana_coman: i think i didn't say enough on the subject. the core of what i did in order to get it to build on mac os x is fix autoconf scripts, if i revisit mac os x build in a couple of weeks, i'll try and provide a portable patch

mircea_popescu: i don't necessarily dispute that he THOUGHT about it for many years. but there's a profound difference between these two things. psychological first of all.

mircea_popescu: best i can discern two things : 1) derp wanted to discourage old coinbases accumulating (had intuition about the blockchain bloat didn't want to address or know how to) ; 2) fees would have been HUGE early on without this, as in, "fuck you, you wanna transact it's 50 cents. i dun care your 1k btc is enough for a pizza slice ie 2 bux"

mircea_popescu: accept that or don't, i dun particularly care nor does in fact have any effects. but history is history, rather than fantasy.

jurov: i am now matching mircea's answers against regexp? that was really clever retort.

mircea_popescu: yes, the proposition that "sane answer" === "i made a mistake" necessarily implies that as a precursor.

asciilifeform: i dun think anyone was imagining mircea_popescu creating tx on grid paper, with pencil, no.

mircea_popescu: i'd guess a and esp b should be obvious. if they aren't obvious, the problem is almost certainly not what's stated.

mircea_popescu: hat i'd do such a thing.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) yes i do "manual payments" ; this however does not mean i create the txn by hand. i'd think this'd be obvious ; b) any and all, this and all sorts of other resources are used to establish things about the network. i am, for the record, THE FIRST, and also for years THE ONLY both systematically sending txnfees "not needed" and pushing for others to do so. it is utterly not because i'm trying to shave pennies t

mircea_popescu: how the fuck is "sane answer" to be established via regexp with given string is what i want to know.

jurov: "i made a mistake"

jurov: yes i did have handicap. because i did not ever get SANE answer "why our supposed betters ever contemplated sending zerofee tx"

asciilifeform: i'd rather like to know what it is that is actually bothering jurov. (could hazard a guess, but would rather not)

mircea_popescu: whenever it is a reality i blame the mother.

asciilifeform: i read it as a boy, it was brainmelting

asciilifeform: then i stand corrected.

asciilifeform: jurov: am i mistaken that classical turdatron was an l1 device ?

asciilifeform: jurov: related - i shit thee not - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3agpo4 .

jurov: and what do i do with output of $wot ?

mircea_popescu: i dun care for the content, tbh. form will carry this matter all the way it needs to go.

a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 13:23 znort987: trinque: thx, what I was looking for.

mircea_popescu: the consensus in my head also is that if you keep with this whiny anal child subversive bullshit i'll bitchslap you so far up your mother's ass friends and family won't be able to reassemble the pieces.

a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 13:52 jurov: interesting, so the consesnus is apparently wot does not mean anything anymore and i should curate gpg keys manually?

mircea_popescu: aha. in fact i suspect both issues are present, and reciprocally reinforcing.

mircea_popescu: possibly. or alternately because nobody ever said "do it like this or i will fuck your children with many tiny bottle openers. in the eyes."

asciilifeform: i.e. tries to paper over the 10,001 under- and un- specified 'systemwide-installed' deps.

mircea_popescu: but i think a large-ish part of hte problem is that build process per se is not actually specified.

asciilifeform: in fact, i'm pretty sure that i would not be able to submit a patch to turdatron presently.

asciilifeform: jurov: all i say is that presently we dun have a rifle-cleaning machine to give to jurov.

jurov: eh, i'm in no mood to discuss deeper, whatever

a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 03:11 phf: i say it's a chicken and egg problem, because you know you can get vendor versions of posix tools (and then still reduce the available "language" even more, by taking away some features that might be missing in nominally posix sh on some obscure system), but you can't really do anything else, until you established some truths about your environment

asciilifeform: i would like to get rid of THAT also.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526615 << my complaint is that it adds a meg of UNREADABLE and - largely UNTESTABLE (i do not have a VMS box, nor a machine with zsh or ksh, nor do i intend to , and i REFUSE to sign code that claims to run there , srsly wtf omfg) - and that it introduces massive turd, useless language m4, go and learn it, read the implementation ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: so jurov's complaint rather resembles 'so consensus is that washing machines are useless and wtf, i have to clean this rifle manually ?'

asciilifeform: i dun have a problem with this, but it is important to remember how it worked.

jurov: interesting, so the consesnus is apparently wot does not mean anything anymore and i should curate gpg keys manually? ☟︎

asciilifeform: shinohai: it is almost exactly the thing i imagined when first wrote 'v'.

shinohai: I like phf's setup, it is simple to go in and find which patches I need/don't need.

a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 11:27 jurov: re: eulora build system. last i saw it still carried crap like --with-hunspell . And when i tried to add configure option for ecl support.. i just gave up, it uses jam with poorly documented custom CS extensions.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526668 << i have not, to date, attempted to build and run eulora, i wonder what 'wonderful surprises' await. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526664 << i never found a sane client.. ☝︎

asciilifeform: 'OK, so I figured out one part of the puzzle I think: dbus-daemon is broken handling incoming messages where there's first a message without auxiliary fd in the socket buffer, which is then immediately followed by one with auxiliary fd. The kernel will already return the auxiliary fd with the first message, and dbus-daemon takes that as broken message and will abort the connection.' -- poettering.

jurov: re: eulora build system. last i saw it still carried crap like --with-hunspell . And when i tried to add configure option for ecl support.. i just gave up, it uses jam with poorly documented custom CS extensions. ☟︎

diana_coman: phf, this is all I found, back before my time indeed: http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-08-15.log.html#t18:47:02 and http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-08-29.log.html#t19:13:13

diana_coman: I'll search the logs to find phf's pointer and have a look at it

diana_coman: phf mircea_popescu I think that was probably before my time really

BingoBoingo: <phf> i think crystal whatever is particularly nasty take on autoconf, probably one of the best examples in support of asciilifeform's rants. << Nah, "Monero" is far worse because of what it supposes to be.

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ok, but i mean... so we drive nails with screwdriver because that's what we got. << In that case skip nail and drive in screwdriver. Better load bearing ability, usually...

phf: by changes i mean the homebrew build patches. pretty sure i said something about "please look at them patches" in #eulora, probably to jurov or diana_coman. i highly doubt it was done, so more suffering on their part :>

phf: i went through the whole exercise of rebuilding the scripts from their respective ac files

mircea_popescu: phf eulora can't pull current cs because they fucked it up. so i wouldn't know.

phf: do you know if my changes were integrated into the release? because last time i checked the build wasn't doing autoconf, but simply using patches generated scripts.

phf: only worse autoconf build i've seen was clisp, but in the later case it was written by one of autoconf authors, so while it was elaborate it was at the very least sane

phf: i think crystal whatever is particularly nasty take on autoconf, probably one of the best examples in support of asciilifeform's rants.

phf: i think at best it could be trimmed down, but i think even that's doable by limiting the number of m4 macros used for includes. or perhaps being very specific with what you want. "i need gcc 4" will necessarily be less messy than "i need a c compiler", considering that most of the time the program is not ready to deal with wide range of compilers anyway

mircea_popescu: ok, but i mean... so we drive nails with screwdriver because that's what we got.

phf: new takes on build systems suffer, because they rely on high level languages. and if your vendor didn't provide you with perl or python, you're back to squire one "how do i compile my build system on this machine"

phf: i say it's a chicken and egg problem, because you know you can get vendor versions of posix tools (and then still reduce the available "language" even more, by taking away some features that might be missing in nominally posix sh on some obscure system), but you can't really do anything else, until you established some truths about your environment ☟︎

phf: i think the reason is that the sh/m4 combo is particularly well suited for what you call parsing. really it's very well suited at "expanding code". it's wholly inadequate for building compilers

phf: need to compile c code is already about 50 checks (do have "NULL"? do we have "malloc"?), but i follow

mircea_popescu: i don;t follow.