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pete_dushenski: in addition to his dual-ceo jobs at renault and nissan, ghosn also recently took over managing the fumbling mitsubishi, of which his alliance now owns a third.

pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: carlos ghosn is understandably well known in the auto industry. he's a true lebzilianenchman (lebanese-brazilian-frenchman), meaning he has a strong aesthetic sense but he's also quite the fierce deal-maker. only in the last 5 years has akio toyoda risen to ghosn's level as an overall strategist, product developer, and brand manager. alan mullaly and martin winterkorn were the only other two

trinque: the peace of nobody else being outside is - at least for a city dweller - lovely. no such respite in the south.

mircea_popescu: anyway. the problem of very long lived actinides (like iodine 129) is certain to eventually drive burner designs. even if they're run as two separate installatiosn as currently the case for some insane reason (really, germany burns up uranium in light water reactor, then ships the leftover by train to france to be reburned in a special burner. could have done all in one place but hey.).

mircea_popescu: yeah well ; to create a new set of miners.

Framedragger: asciilifeform: as in, nuclear waste storage is a propped-up issue/narrative? interesting

asciilifeform: they are always great for a lolball.

BingoBoingo: Final possibility is in 10,000 years theme park erected on site and site not having been breeched is a sucess.

BingoBoingo: From a group hypothesizing ways a nuclear waste site could be breached in the future.

BingoBoingo: Gold: "A Feminist World"—an future energy company, the Feminist Alternative Potash Corporation, wishes to mine for salts in the WIPP site. Although the team comes across the warning signs, once it becomes clear that they were written by a group consisting of mostly older white men, they dismiss them."

trinque: I did not have a crisis of self over learning the reasoning behind the current design of WoT db.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 17:35 asciilifeform: one problem that purveyors of sad-schmuck 'maths' chronically suffer from is the expectation that a consistent model has to mesh with naive child's conception of 'N apples' arithmetic.

mircea_popescu: in any case - mental models of logic, as with mental models of anything found in nature -, are approximations. the same mechanism that allows a guy to isolate 0* from null.predicate allows one all sorts of psycho-imunological responses that are rather requisite to maintain the subjective notion of the self ~in a format comprehensible to itself~! ☟︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you may be surprised by that rocket thing ; iirc i posted a guy attached to a car.

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: re. "integration", heh have you by any chance read any of jean piaget? iirc he did quite a bit of "logical system development in children, integration" etc. may be a curious read.

mircea_popescu: if girl a sees girl b drop a vase girl a thinks girl b is clumsy ; if girl a sees girl a drop the same vase girl a tihnks the vase is slippery. ☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: i mean there's a set of expectations (this is what an ontology, ie, list of items and predicates, always is) for the self ; and ANOTHER one for the world.

mircea_popescu: it's not just that computing isn't thought ; what happens in the brain is also not reason. as far as the logic is concerned things may be whatever they are, but in the objective development of the subject there's an i-ontology and a world-ontology. this disjunction is or is not resolved in time ; but from the subjective development it was never a problem in the first place.

Framedragger: because first of all these are not the same thing. we would first have to introduce, say (as an example), peano arithmetic atop set theory, and go from there. "multiplication" is a diff beast. why not division? etc etc.

Framedragger: here's a compressed internal model: "mircea_popescu wants truth-conditions of predicates in set theory to abide by a kind of falsification-based criterion."

mircea_popescu: there's an ancient quote about the wine vessel aleph of a party, with 3+ being the breaking of furniture

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: just to clarify so you don't think i'm trying to fuck around, i mean that all predicates would be true under null set. i don't find that to be a good idea. that's all

Framedragger: i don't know how a logician can entertain the latter. well, many things can be entertained, but it's not exactly.. how shall i put it.. ontologically economic?

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 17:13 mircea_popescu: as to the blue hair issue : if you can't produce a member which has non-blue hair, the proposition stands ; and if i can prove you can't (which i prove by showing there's no elements in the null set) then the proposition evaluates to true.

Framedragger: hmmm. so we have both http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1584200 *and* http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1584272 ; i think this entails a logical explosion of "everything is true" :p ☝︎☝︎

BingoBoingo: Just not a polite word in his culture

BingoBoingo: trinque is Texan where confused is a synonym for sucking cocks. It's a cultural soft spot. ☟︎

Framedragger: but then if you want to entertain the latter "check if any *does not obtain*", you will have a "empty set if holder of *all* properties"

Framedragger: anyway, i agree that there is a way to construct an "every" so that given a null set, it spits out true. however, "every" of what? usually there's a predicate, and then the way you'd test "every" with a predicate is that you run that predicate on every element encountered. and you test that it *obtains*, not that it *does not obtain*.

mircea_popescu: but it's only red inasmuch as it's a herring

Framedragger: hey i thought trinque unrating phf was a stupid reactionary thing. don't use this as a red herring.

mircea_popescu: i think it's a fabulous testament on the very matters at hand that the ~only guy who has a very introspective, quiet, slow and complete approach to thinking/speaking got derated for emotionals.

Framedragger: mircea_popescu: notice, the "all" in python takes a predicate

mircea_popescu: a dramatic development!

Framedragger: wtf is this shit anyway. even if it's a logical operator, and then, look: it's an AND underneath. and you all know the very-noncontroversial truth-table for AND. true iff for every member, predicate applies. NOT vice-versa falsification goofyness.

trinque: "all" in python is a control structure around a loop, not a term in a boolean statement

mircea_popescu: "the avoidance of suffering can never be a point of policy, seeing how the simplest solution is immediate mass extermination." AND "consensus can never be the basis of action because the null set always agrees."

mircea_popescu: kinda fine illustration of why consensus can never be a sound basis for action

phf: oh, shit, we've got a reddit consensus over here ☟︎

Framedragger: that's swell guys but a bit of a non sequitur neh. that being said, yea "if you try to formalize fleshworld, you're gonna have a bad time" :)

deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/12/16/i-came-to-buy-a-smile-today/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - I came to buy a smile today.

asciilifeform: one problem that purveyors of sad-schmuck 'maths' chronically suffer from is the expectation that a consistent model has to mesh with naive child's conception of 'N apples' arithmetic. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: ((and mp was never as unimpressed with chomski as he was when the guy tried to deploy a cantor proof lite without saying so.))

mircea_popescu: anyway. for completeness let it be stated that perceived problems of thought-computing mismatch are thoroughly a matter of perception, and in principle can not be fixed (other than fixing the perception). it's the fundamental problem of "ai", as derided often enough here (see the "what if you name the procedures something other than "understanding" etc ; see also chomski's attacks on "ai" centered on the constructed repeating

trinque should bitch about programming moar often; what a ride

phf: i just found this thing, and this should've been that, and that should've been the other, va a fare in culo! :E

mircea_popescu: this duality then makes it a fine candidate for a "prime mover", which bothered the scholastics immensely, because they, much like the scholastics-lite version of smith in the us say, wanted to intercede their own agent in there, so he could do things and therefore their derpitude could matter.

mircea_popescu: anyway, the problem generally is that "all things" have an ontology and a gnoseology, which is separate and so trivially separable even the greeks were privy to it (hence plato's ideal objects) ; except for the void, which is AT THE SAME TIME the absence of ontology and the plenarity of gnoseology. which is to say, the same "thing" at the same time doesn't exist (ie, as nil) and implies everything (ie, as "false").

mircea_popescu: the proposition "four is a prime number" doesn't stand, because a factor is known ; the proposition "this and this rsa key is made of two primes" stands, but is not known to be true.

phf: you're not asking for falsehood, when you're asking for nil-ness, so semantic confusion that arises from using same symbol for both concepts is almost always a theoretical problem. and when it's not, like in other situations of semantic ambiguity you can choose to be more precise. luckily people who like to solve theoretical problems of thinking-computing mismatch have moved away from lisp and are doing haskell now

mircea_popescu: if i were to endeavour to prove all primenumbers larger than 2 are odd, you'd count yourself satisfied if i showed a number that's prime and larger than 2 can not exist, yes ?

mircea_popescu: Framedragger a proposition ~stands~ until falsified. and is true once it can be showed it can't be false.

Framedragger: that's all well and good when you can enumerate countable set elements exhaustively / have firm grasp of a term's extension, but what if you don't - any predicate stands true until shown otherwise?

mircea_popescu: as to the blue hair issue : if you can't produce a member which has non-blue hair, the proposition stands ; and if i can prove you can't (which i prove by showing there's no elements in the null set) then the proposition evaluates to true. ☟︎

trinque: I understand the difference, was saying lisp *should* have a separate false.

mircea_popescu: all sentences spring from a false ; but nothing springs from the nil.

mircea_popescu: note however that many languages (which aren't english) allow purely constructive usage ; such as adjectival forms constructed from nouns, the noun of a verb and the verb of a noun and so following. depending on semantics bagumpa is blerpy could well have a truth value - if say your definition of is includes an equivalency class for all elements starting with the same letter.

Framedragger: note, strawson, frege would say that the king of france *expression* fails to provide a *(logical) proposition*. i.e., it does not have one. imho this is a valid thought, i.e. the matter is not 100% clear.

trinque: is this a "the void has all properties" thing ?

trinque: so then, I just said "is every element in this set true" and got a true on the empty set.

Framedragger: re. asking questions involving properties which do not exist, hah this is something that russell was actually battling with. what is the truth-value of the statement "the present king of france is bold"? some would say it does not have a value (because the term "present king of france" does not have a referent); russell would say "false".

mircea_popescu: trinque aha, that lulzy "nature abhors a vacuum" theory hottie is shown demonstrating for yul brenner's "children" comes from right here.

trinque: were ther a distinction between nil and false, I would expect (and) -> nil (and f) -> f

trinque: from where I sit one can't ask a question of nothing regarding properties nothing doesn't have.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 15:30 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583902 << http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_everyc.htm where (every (lambda () nil) ()) => t (some (lambda () t) ()) => nil. this is a functional equivalent of and/or macros, where (and) => t and (or) => nil

mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of these.

a111: Logged on 2016-03-28 13:11 mircea_popescu: upon consideration, i see no reason to continue supporting or otherwise encourage kakobrekla's bizarre worldview. on the contrary, i view further involvement with the nonsense as considerable moral hazard, and a miserable thing to do altogether.

mircea_popescu: speaking of which ben_vulpes : how would you feel about adding a rsync-like interface for wotpaste through rsa sessions ? ☟︎

phf: mircea_popescu: kind of like a transparent rsync to a shared folder, with ~/public linked to public web url

BingoBoingo atm leaning towards mixed wood. Perhaps a walnut top and Douglas fir (maximally pink boards) structral components.

phf: dropbox is finally discontinuing public folder. "we’ve built even better ways for you to share securely and work together with your team." what a load of shit. literally the best feature they had was unmediated ~/pub/. the "better ways" they are referring to is a web 2.0 style "USE DROPBOX CLIENT (or click here to download directly like some kind of loser)"

mircea_popescu: Framedragger the point is, what do you build the discipline ~around~. it's a linguistic choice, of the level of "we'll write this in basic or php".

phf: surprisingly! fwiw at moscow state evening math school you didn't start with programming. for a couple of years the classes were physics, math and boolean logic. programming in C with frbrgeorge was considered an advanced class and the only ~actual touching of computer~ class

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583902 << http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_everyc.htm where (every (lambda () nil) ()) => t (some (lambda () t) ()) => nil. this is a functional equivalent of and/or macros, where (and) => t and (or) => nil ☝︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: anyway, all this is becoming ever more interesting as the great again summoning will probably imply something that to the japanese will seem like us unreliability creating a disparity with china wrt nukes.

a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 01:17 asciilifeform: there is, in archive, a letter from general groves to truman stating, plainly, that there will not be REMOTELY enough U for bomb.

asciilifeform: that gen. groves proclaimed, correctly, would not supply even a test bomb until '46.

asciilifeform: the hilarious part is that the ~actual~ impetus for the funding was lizards who understood that eventually someone ~will~ find a way to gas'em; and as soon as it became clear that the antidote will not remove all sequelae from gassing, the funding -- evaporated.

Framedragger: i agree, and there is the whole utilitarian framework to be considered in specific instances, such as, "make bloodmoney now, to be invested for quantifiably more good later", etc.; still, it's a nuanced thing...

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at least they're coherent, "anti-missile shield is not a nuclear weapon". sure it isn't.

mircea_popescu: hey, ethics is not mandatory, just a guideline,

asciilifeform: 'professional ethics' in usg schmuckdom is a ball of lulz. for instance, when asciilifeform was slaving for usg, he worked in the chemical weapons program. which of course he could not have worked in, because nixon cancelled it, and asciilifeform was never 'security cleared' !!11111 but oh, apparently ~antidotes~ are not weapons! despite the obvious use for the type of antidote that was funded (eat it, release gas, then fight without

Framedragger: (that being said, /me considers working part-time in the future to come, and working more on personal/worthy projects on the side. i don't know how asciilifeform is tmsr-productive while doing other stuff full-time - maybe i should go on a modafinil diet heh)

Framedragger: (it may however be noted that lacking material wealth, the extreme case of the above appears to be gabriel_laddel (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1570190); and i *do* prefer to have a friggin' mailing address; and there are places to work which do not do heaven-important things, but are not microshit, either; i.e., there's a spectrum.) ☝︎

Framedragger: in my quotes file, as a reminder...

Framedragger: "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."

asciilifeform: is the point though. someone was to end up with it, and that someone would have been a socialist throne of whichever colour.

mircea_popescu: except, in typical "i'm a thinker not a doer" puppy style, figured out after.

mircea_popescu: who, incidentally, mostly all figured out what a horrible sin it was to deliver the socialists the bomb.

asciilifeform: (though it did give usg a good run for its money, first)

mircea_popescu: on which note i should wish to muchly encourage the ~competent~ youth to not fear "suicide" of this nature. it's a control artefact implanted by the socialist motherhood for their detriment, a sort of imaginary pain box of the bene gesserit. there's no reason to even HAVE a "group of women who don't fuck" as a political entity, let alone ridoinculous imaginary boxes.

mircea_popescu: it's a topic worthy of investigation.

mircea_popescu: this has A LOT to do with the mechanisms discussed in http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/ ; and so unsurprisingly the us marxists came up with all sorts of funny theories as to what "japan was really like" economically.

mircea_popescu: Framedragger there's a lot of interesting stuff at the "western world" - japan interface. japan being, of course, the only non-european industrialised country. but it doesn't stop there - when the whole socialist world went up in flames in the 20s, japan was doing absolutely fine ; even made a bundle speculating the loser's currencies.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:47 mircea_popescu: not only does it mirror how we learned programming as kids (i did circles in a for loop in basic, obtained a nice worm guy!) but it gives an immediacy to lisping absent ANYWHERE else.

Framedragger: "In the first year of the Nissan Revival Plan, Nissan's consolidated net profit after tax climbed to $2.7 billion for fiscal year 2000, from a consolidated net loss of $6.46 billion in the previous year. Twelve months into his three-year turnaround plan, Nissan had returned to profitability, and within three years it was one of the industry's most profitable auto makers, with

mircea_popescu: never take on a slave who's not aware she's abject refuse.

mircea_popescu: the greatest skill is to turn down byzantine crap a la gm or ford. "oh great opportunity". heh, for THEM, maybe. they want to suck your juju, to extend their lifespan for a few short extra weeks WITHOUT CHANGING substantially. that's the fucking problem.

mircea_popescu: incidentally, the greatest skill in the world isn't to you know, get named head of michelin south america reporting directly to francois michelin and then turn it around in a coupla years.

mircea_popescu: yes but that's because he's a girl.