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mircea_popescu: calling it "state machine" is kind-of improper as i suppose the result also holds state. a cleaner separation may be advisable, but w/e.

asciilifeform: this doesn't have a traditional meaning, i am now trying to puzzle out what is meant

adlai: now that's a hearoglyph i haven't seen in a long time!

asciilifeform: maybe moar of a harley.

mircea_popescu: pretty sure my implementation has a fence error somewhere because evident parity issues, but anyway. prototype.

mircea_popescu: this is just a mash-up together of elements to show how the concept works. better assemblage is probably possible.

asciilifeform: adlai: indeed it does, i put it to actual use at a salt mine

asciilifeform: and yes, in m. you can give a state machine transition rule set and get animated gif out the other end. or a .avi. etc

asciilifeform: and cannot, for instance, make anything like a usable cad

adlai: please elaborate, what do you mean by "writing a human proggy"? what i meant by "not a full solution" is that there's supposedly a tool out there which does 'half' the job, and obviously some human must write a proggy that does the other

asciilifeform sometimes works with a d00d who only knows fortran

asciilifeform: adlai: there always remains the option of writing a human proggy.

adlai: not a full solution, but i do recall phf mentioning some animation software driven by sexps

asciilifeform: (d00d was obsessed with state machines, so it has a thing where you define one and it shits out a box with arrow that you can move, stepwise or at x frames/sec, and shits out gifs, etc)

mircea_popescu: anyone know of a code-to-gif compiler ? i have nfi how one's supposed to do cryptography without it.

mircea_popescu: i wish i had a way to program things in a visual manner, so i could obtain a GIF! animated! of what the algorithm is supposed to do.

asciilifeform: i'ma have to build a working model of this.

asciilifeform: it has another problem, that i never invented yet a pill against, which is that later bits in the turdogram 'count for' considerably less than earlier ones

mircea_popescu: ah i musta missed that. but yeah, can craft item that takes a long time to hash

asciilifeform: i suggested this, iirc, a day or two ago to ben_vulpes

mircea_popescu: . for each bit of M that is read : if 0 state machine gets a null bit added at the end ; if 1 state machine gets the M%S-th, 2M%S-th, ... nM%S-th bits flipped, for n=bitcount of S ; if 0 and the M-th % R-th bit = 1 then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th ; if 1 and the M-th % R-th bit = M-th % S-th bit then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th. that sort of thing.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw it occurs to me that your proposed padding scheme, while not useful as a rsa padding scheme, nevertheless may be rescued into a very serviceable hash function, which has the notable property that a) acordion and b) user settable output size. something like this : let R be a ring buffer of as many bits as the user specified the output should be, let M be the message. let there be a one bit state machine S = 0

asciilifeform: 'L'ancien ministre de l'Éducation, pourtant agrégé d'histoire, commet une erreur de dates, puisqu'il y a quarante ans, nous étions en 1977 et que sous le mandat de Valéry Giscard d'Estaing aucun juif ne portait l'étoile jaune.'

davout: http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/citations/2017/01/04/25002-20170104ARTFIG00059-peillon-compare-le-sort-des-musulmans-francais-a-celui-des-juifs-sous-vichy.php

mircea_popescu: i suspect it's a mystery

trinque read, was a snore

BingoBoingo: Hussein bahamas fictions himself a "way the world works" and dooms plenty well

mircea_popescu: kinda the problem with fiction, either it's "doom" and then a simple word, or else an explanation, which necessarily cuts short.

asciilifeform: 'Metropolitan Nagoya has literally thousands of people who can write assembly code that you’d literally trust your life to (you have before and will again, unless your sole method of transportation is bicycles), and probably only a few dozen who you’d want working on a web application. Tokyo has more, but still far too few.' << nuts.

a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 10:33 davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596264 << if it isn't apparent to naked eye in ~vtronic~ (e.g., phf's) viewer, it's a total loss of vtronicity. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lulz, http://trilema.com/2015/internoc24-or-the-crisis-and-its-resolution/#comment-120934 "oh, lalala we can't hear anything" ; two months later "oh wait, what the guy said would happen happened, our marketing's utterly shot now" "OH I KNOW!!! I WILL FIX EVERYTHING! by going on in the manner that got me raped in the first place, because i'm a speshul snoflake that can!11".

davout: as a first step it can even be implemented without an UTXO index by address

davout: and if history is somehow lost by the wallet, it's a rescan away

davout: for the cost of a 20gb index the wallet code can be completely removed, and implemented as a couple light scripts on top of TRB

davout: so apparently, the electrum folks manage to fit a complete TXOs index in ~20gb

davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches ☟︎

davout: ah i didn't notice the two lines merged as one being seen as a move

ben_vulpes: davout: i think the highlighting is trying to tell me that it thinks that `format t "~{~A~}"' persisted from the previous commit to this one

ben_vulpes: http://imgur.com/a/KuPJv << some kind of voodoo magic in there knows i moved that format string around ☟︎

BingoBoingo: davout: Nah, just suicidal. So long as some root survives tree has a chance of continuing to tree. Plane has no such faculty for continuing to plane.

BingoBoingo: Well what is a puny aeroplane doing messing with a righteous tree?

trinque: what a place to leave trees

a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 02:18 mircea_popescu: davout your four main pieces are a b and c ?

hanbot: it's a virutally harmless mistake

mircea_popescu: but to please ben_vulpes : it may amuse you to learn that ask.fm put in a mitigation for my bot (ill designed, and fail to work) sometime on dec 30th. AND THEN apparently (accidentally ?) reverted it sometime jan 2nd.

mircea_popescu: but anyway, this is actually a point - maintaining a stable irc connection is both informative and good preparation for the tasks ahead.

mircea_popescu: like a virtual server ?

asciilifeform: we had a thread.

asciilifeform: that s. peddled as a 'replacement' for 'applied crypto'

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the blue-cover crapola thing is technically a different b00k

mircea_popescu: yeah it's actually not even a bad idea.

mircea_popescu: you want it to go through a www page, find all signature blocks, and identify it as a fingerprint then ?

asciilifeform: a 'this www has apparent pgp signature, let's see whose, and for the record', was the idea.

mircea_popescu: this is so horribly stated. so what you want is, for trinque or you, these being the only "et al" curtrently keeping pgp data ; to implement a search through it by random string ?

asciilifeform: (btw, trinque et al, here's a bot command idea: #!k (for instance) takes url and looks for pgp keyblocks or sigs or any other pgptronic object from which a key bitness , fp, or other interesting attribute can be pgpdump'd, and prints same in log)

a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 23:09 asciilifeform: and if you can achieve it in a ~discrete~ system, you can get wolfram to drink himself to death, by properly demonstrating 'cellular physics' (tm) (r) where he failed.

mircea_popescu: this has been good law for a century +

BingoBoingo: Apparently all of a sudden "mesentery is new organ", Leonardo years ago

a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:48 davout: asciilifeform: point is piloting a small plane there's just a few things to pay attention to constantly

asciilifeform: (there are other variants sold, but mostly 'A' on most of the planet)

mod6: i guess this took place at a refueling stop in the middle of the night.

mod6: it easy to put unleaded regular gas into a diesel, but not vice-versa. the diesal nozzles are too large for a standard gasoline tube.

mircea_popescu: these are good-to-have, not dependencies. let the lizzard queen fuck with ips a while first.

mircea_popescu: davout your four main pieces are a b and c ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: instead of a few min.

asciilifeform: if being 1 hop closer to a miner now means an hour less avg. delay.

mircea_popescu: this is a fine avenue of rebalancing the miner/node nonsense.

asciilifeform: 1 tx / hr / peer will make for one hell of a turtle relay

mircea_popescu: yes but there's at least a decade between these.

asciilifeform is a bit more 'doomer' than mircea_popescu on this subj, and does not see a future for 'anyone can send packet to anyone' net in ~general~

asciilifeform: just like i can't go and offer a candidate tx to swift because i feel like it

asciilifeform: it is physical reality, and ergo by definition no moar 'insane' than gravity. unless mircea_popescu offers a breakthrough where we can test doublespendity without keeping blockchain around at all

mircea_popescu: you cvan not engage in an open ended "i will for all comers do the work of checking one cent txn against a 10 dollar blockchain".

asciilifeform: (a tx can have valid form in all sense other than being a doublespend, mircea_popescu knows this)

asciilifeform: in the case of verifying a block -- it does

asciilifeform: well the old code has ban(...) which instructs 'this datum was a malicious turd and i dun want no moar from that ip'

mircea_popescu: i don't think today's logic does anything ; and i don't expect carrying it forward is useful. spec does include room for trb.n to do some banning, including on the basis of passively exfiltrated data from trb.b. that a protocol for this purpose may later develop i don't dispute, but it's not included both because it's not needed and because it can't become a "dependency". it's not.

asciilifeform: and whatdoyoumean 'no tx', is the thing contemplated a wholly mempool-less node ?

mircea_popescu: do you read the spec or just sit there and dream a little dream ?

asciilifeform: what happens when evilpeer dumps a TB of liquishit into the queue?

mircea_popescu: no. one just reads, the other just writes, at all points where they interact. no talking is contemplated, and if this is "a protocol" then it's already given.

a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:24 asciilifeform: they will require a -- quite complicated -- entirely new protocol

a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:19 davout: make the miner a separate bin

a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:16 asciilifeform: but it is a stretch. and does not let you ignite a bitcoin overnight if transported to alpha centauri (or, more likely, earth-with-broken-mainnet)

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595862 << this is a stronger argument than it appears. we may find ourselves in the position where we have to, if not "mine" in the current sense, say what mining should be. in no case can it be "oh, mining, not something we care about". about mining, about any other part. ☝︎

deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-fuck-up-without-being-a-fuckup << CH - How to Fuck Up Without Being a Fuckup

asciilifeform: (every tx in memory relies on its inputs being present , and at all times becomes a threat to crash the process if one should turn out not to be there. ~all pointers potentially dangle . thing is as rotten as could be imagined.)

asciilifeform: and there are no provisions for safely ~removing a tx~ from mempool, ever, at all

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: a non-algebraic ('programmatic') hash algo opens the possibility of crafted cpu-ddos

ben_vulpes: why is 'fixed number of cpu cycles' a great thing?

asciilifeform: i know of 0 uses for a 'hash' where the same ~input~ is not guaranteed to produce ~same output~

asciilifeform: all by itself it'd be a worthwhile thing, if only for this.

asciilifeform: and if you can achieve it in a ~discrete~ system, you can get wolfram to drink himself to death, by properly demonstrating 'cellular physics' (tm) (r) where he failed. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you know how to get effect entirely analogous to gas turbulence in a purely electric machine, there are many folks who will clap, do say.

asciilifeform: (tldr -- a digital approximation of a complex process is 1) not ~the process itself~, noshit.jpg 2) not necessarily all that complex, in the chaos/avalanche sense, or in any way cryptologically hard)

asciilifeform: just take a piece of paper, and list'em

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: consider the things you actually want from a cryptographic hash

asciilifeform: in a hash for just about any application you want to always live in the former and never, ever in the latter.

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it would be utterly nutso to consider an ode/fluids sim as a hashing function, right?