log☇︎
72100+ entries in 0.522s
mircea_popescu: there's even a name for it, i forget.
asciilifeform: but if you could fly anywhere for 0 money, supposing your were willing to do it on some unknown date up to month in the future -- quite a few folx would
mircea_popescu: that if you wait long enough eventually an airplane will fall into your yard does not make airplanes a free product outside of the airplane market.
mircea_popescu: you see a guy with a hot woman, she's sucking his cock. 0 fee ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my puzzlement is re the continued existence of 0fee in conjunction with 'blocks are crowded.' can you picture a city where trains are full to bursting point, but they continue letting a third of the passengers in for free ?!
mircea_popescu: and moreover, bitcoin tx is absolutely a seller-s market, definition item.
asciilifeform: there's a difference between 'mostly' and 'actually no strings'
asciilifeform: (if i landed, a martian, on earth, and found that almost all beer is given out for free and with 0 strings attached - i would infer that beer is a type of industrial waste..)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it is a market, it is 'buyer's market'
mircea_popescu: they're markets alright. the fact that a block subsidy covers 80% or so of the value of a block is the dispositive factor ; and it disposes.
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of cunt, beer, tv etc given away for free every day ; doesn't make these not markets.
mircea_popescu: plus a few governments, plus a few etcetera.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619482 << right now, keeping a node is -ev for almost everyone who could be doing it. only oddballs with countereconomic motivation of one kind or another (e.g., trb experimenters) , plus miners themselves, plus serious txers ( e.g., mircea_popescu ) have a desire to do it. there are not so many of these. it is rather like relying on entirely on coprophagics for your sewage disposal needs. ☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol what is what, a veterinary autocastrator ?
mircea_popescu: in this scheme, a node would only relay a txn to another node if that other node promised it MORE than what it in turn had promised the user.
mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all the players want to keep an eye on all the others.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that is true, but ungermane. your scheme as proposed simply works better on a proper tree. timekeeping separate.
mircea_popescu: because there isn't a third.
mircea_popescu: trinque but you need either to a) talk to people who might not mine your tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
trinque: I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
danielpbarron: the 'block' is to keep it all timed right, so that there's still a certain amount of data stored per 10 minute interval. this is also how difficulty is calculated
mircea_popescu: (currently, from a purely cs theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin to spirogira strands. most ridiculous tree known to nature.
trinque: rather than the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid to] produce a block)
trinque: why am I relaying txn to 99% of people who aren't going to do a damned thing with it
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah, the only thing is that if you actually do something like that you are better off dispensing with the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of tree for a blockchain
danielpbarron: in the staged-mining scenario, miner has incentive to be at least somewhat public because he will often find valid solutions that are not quite big enough to solve a block when used alone, but in combination with smaller pieces will work. so he wants to keep a pool of little pieces at the ready to quickly pad his big chunk
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand trinque , he pictured a trbi where miners would advertise 'hi, i'ma miner, and i'd like some tx of yours'
mircea_popescu: either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else they do, in which case stfu you're not invited to the party.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10 trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
asciilifeform: trinque: go and draw a chinese miner into the open, today..?
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in the ridiculous posture of trying to invent a drm that works and off the cuff.
trinque: still no answer why this is better than me having to transmit to a mining node in the first place
asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( to cement this down for l0gz readers : what you'd need is a mechanism for pubkey-signing some material already signed by another pubkey, whereby the original signature is preserved -- not necessarily bitwise, but in the sense of remaining fully verifiable -- but the new one is not strippable off with any reasonable amount of cpu cycle )
asciilifeform: theoretically you ~could~ have a leaktight hose where hop1 takes a % of a 'node and miner fee' preallocated by tx author; hop2 takes ~his own~ % of what hop1 left on the table; and so forth. but the requisite mathematical device for protocolically encumbering a tx is afaik undiscovered.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37 thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
mircea_popescu: that's why all the efforts to help "black people" as they were understood by white people created a thin sliver of black people tuned to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
asciilifeform: ( anybody try a kapton barrel ? what'd this cost..? )
asciilifeform: you can have a cardboard barrel also. for the same 1 shot.
mircea_popescu: which is how you can have a plastic gun barrel on a gun.
mircea_popescu: they're technically plastics because of the process through which they all work, but that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry thing, but a bevy of them.
mircea_popescu: much like say "composites" today is a lot more than the "glass fiber" making the better motor boats on the black sea at the period.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619262 << "plastics" in current practice is a very different material from "plastics" in the 1970s soviet standards book understanding. it ain't no longer pvc, plexi & pp/pet. ☝︎
trinque: it would be polite to have a nervous breakdown at the very least
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59 trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
asciilifeform: ( or, what, some derp mining on a 486, can cause space inside a block to be filled ?! )
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and i can hardly picture the low-density 'subcoinbases' actually ever making it into a block .
asciilifeform: (and, more importantly, how does a system having coins taking the form (a,b), rather than scalar (c), not reduce to same (c) == a*b ? )
asciilifeform: is it the knapsack problem, where coins are now vectors, rather than scalars, they have a volume and a density ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: educate me ( a non-euloran ) what means 'quality of coin'
danielpbarron: the thing i was imagining had two different things that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A to B ; creating new coins out of thin air. and anyone can create the new coins, no matter how much hash power they have. the big miners could still exist to supply high quality coins, while the common user could mine low quality coins
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it does seem to reduce to the earlier 'let's say mining were what you did to make a tx, and there were no blocks as such' neh ?
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
asciilifeform: ( now! for all i know, they wrote directly to mircea_popescu . but notice that he is not burning with the desire to share this fact. the secrecy incentive remains even for folks N degrees separated from a known miner ! )
trinque: this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
trinque: everyone-has-a-mempool is not distinct in any way from miners-run-mempool/nodes-relay-to-known-miner
trinque: I can send you a completely empty block now as a miner, and you'll take it
asciilifeform: what incentive would a fullnode+miner have to send me accurate blocks ?
asciilifeform: but now picture if i had to own one of the six cartel nodes, to have a verifiable copy of blockchain.
trinque: it proceeds towards asciilifeform's "mining is a bug" point
trinque: so what, I mined a block and I ignored you
asciilifeform: but i can transmit a tx. (for the time being)
trinque: you cannot mine a block now
asciilifeform: the other fundamental problem is that classical bitcoin comes with immense incentive for miner cartelization. if nothing were changed other than 'miner must be a proper node', we get what amounts to visa.
asciilifeform: currently it is possible to break even as a miner without accepting ANY tx
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space. ☟︎
trinque: if the fee market cannot pay for such a thing the mining has no future anyway
trinque: all I need is prior blocks; wtf am I running this mempool on a non-miner for?
asciilifeform: or, if you like, a dog pound, where poor beasts await the soap boiler and ~sometimes~ somebody takes one home
asciilifeform: atm mempool works as a 'meat market' where the eligible chixx stand around, waiting, hoping for a serious mircea_popescu to show up and take'em home
trinque: you are trying to pay for the cost of each node verifying a txn
asciilifeform: trinque: say trinque wants to transmit a tx
trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining? ☟︎
asciilifeform: i could picture some clever mathemagical route whereby each hop can only take a portion of what the n-1-th node consented to -- but i know of no algo to make it thinkable.
asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes. ☟︎
asciilifeform: also if 'a block has many fathers', as in contemplated scheme, this re-introduces the possibility of pool. which imho is a Bad Thing.
asciilifeform: i can think of ~one~ approach, so far: tx creator asks his first-hop node for a nonce, which he then incorporates into his tx, which protocolically declares consent to the node fee. similarly to how miner fee already works. BUT this does not solve the problem of how 2nd ... nth hops, could add anything whatsoever meaningful to the tx.
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i had a very similar idea re: staged-mining. came to it in considering a quality-coin where value is a product of quantity of units and a factor which decreases with each passing block
asciilifeform: in other lulz, 'medium' now replaces images with blank turds whenever archive.is (and also ye olde archive.org !) saves a page there
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu here's another crackpottery in re the nodes/miners/txers 'racul, broasca si o stiuca' : ~multistage mining~. where a node can encumber (protocolically/mathematically - for now i will not specify how) a tx with some proofofwork, when passing it on to next relay; and when the tx is mined, the block reward is split between the multiple parents of the final tx.
trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random ☟︎
aseriousgogetta: a serious go getta
asciilifeform: if 'spec' contains an 'octopus gland of death', item that can be safely and unilaterally jettisoned by a player, it'll be jettisoned
asciilifeform: at this point it is not a mega-seekrit, that mempool only barely worx.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:11 mircea_popescu: consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619219 << this is actually a regular thing -- recall, various pools have wwwtronic forms into which you can piss a tx directly ☝︎
asciilifeform: this is not a strike against mircea_popescu's algo -- imho it is direly necessary
mircea_popescu: consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK. ☝︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: a more perfect union, eh. well, plato'd be happy at least.
mircea_popescu: whether even is fair or not is a marketable question.
mircea_popescu: 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake << consider, if it costs 10 bux to store a kb for 1mn blocks, and it costs 20000 bux to mine a block and there's 2k txn to the block, then it can be said the split is even.
asciilifeform: that'd be rather like calling nsa's database a 'large file backup infrastructure'
mircea_popescu: it's a step towards closing market as discussed above.
asciilifeform: the other problem is that 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake' is not a substantial improvement over the current case
mircea_popescu: well it will also turn the blockchain into a tenable from an untenable proposition.
asciilifeform: which is a turnoff.
asciilifeform: but it does turn an indefinite into a definite-death.
mircea_popescu: 1mn blocks, it should be pointed out, aka 10mn minutes, is a long time.