log☇︎
71500+ entries in 0.612s
a111: Logged on 2017-02-14 17:51 mircea_popescu: trinque understand the problem with "I will also be piling up the signed material for my records" : if during your lifespan you manage to lose eg a 30yo hdd, because you've built a reviewable system those txn will be reviewable. are you on the hook now for refunds ?
asciilifeform: aite, i'ma wait
mircea_popescu: wouldn't you rather i finish first ? 4/5 done
mircea_popescu: b) i point and laugh at some idiots. they demure. i ruin their shit. they bitch and whine. i now have to specifically go on the hunt for nodes that DON'T lend an ear to the idiots bitching and whining ? on my own time & dime ? why the everloving fuck. the entire fucking point of even having cryptocurrency in the first place is so that i can rape eth, and flaunt the rape, and nobody can do jack shit other than flimsly psychode
mircea_popescu: and if i try to meet some... they don't roll anything down... a day later finally someone rolls something down and so i put my txn in and it... doesn't get included. wtf is this shit ?
mircea_popescu: a sixth, also major problem is that the system offers no serious guarantees to the user. think of some situations : a) i mined some bitcoin back in 2011, today i clean out the closed and boot up old laptop, to check out the tits and bits of ex gf who was back then hot and heavy into me. i jack off, and then snoop around and find a bitcoin wallet with ~500 btc in it. i go to spend it... and discover... that i know no nodes... ☟︎
mircea_popescu: moreover i think the original satoshi design wrt to this aspect is actually very wise ; and my expectation (as per say http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/#selection-77.298-77.516 ) is that i should be able to make block-filling txn if i feel like it.
mircea_popescu: if however i offer half the "current price" for a share, i am not so engaging. moreover the case exists in history, for instance at the root of the rotschild fortune
mircea_popescu: there's a different, much less notable problem wrt to what constitutes "a rotten fill". if i go to the stock market (i mean the old, gentlemany, pit of hand gestures thing) and bid "sentiments" for a certain share, i am in fact engaging in retarded behaviour, on the level of sjwing, and will, and should be kicked out. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re your piece (you know if you had intelligently published it ON YOUR OWN BLOG i could have left a comment there instead, and in a year or whenever this were to be reviewed we wouldn't have to go grepping the logs like idiots) :
trinque: and thus I lost interest entirely
ben_vulpes: i guess there were raves as well
ben_vulpes: i don't much know about paths out, but hatred is definitely the fuel for the torch i use to burn a moat around my tiny castle.
trinque: I'll be up early with a fresh mind to read.
asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I". ☟︎
mircea_popescu pictures trinque in beatles uniform, "michelle... i don't speak the language... but i can perceive the hole..."
trinque: I don't speak the language, man, but I saw the lollipops
phf: i actually thought that shangri la clip was from the 40s or something, hence the "serge gainsbourg later ..." :o
mircea_popescu: "bitch, i bet you didn't even get your cock sucked until i taught your mistress how."
phf: i like their clip for shout, because of mary weiss's budding woman come ons. serge gainsbourg will later take it into very roman polansky territory with his yeye girls.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thEKxFNCuT4
trinque: I waited the whole fucking video!
phf: i'm thinking klezmorim as reinterpreted through the 60s do your own thing prism, "happenings", clown with an accordion being "playful" and "weird". it's hard for me to fully connect this line because the whole scene is repulsive
phf: there's one nice thing that came out of harlan ellison, https://www.mobygames.com/game/i-have-no-mouth-and-i-must-scream
asciilifeform thinks 'holy fuck is the trb-i article looooong;' who will have the strength, to read this.
phf: i don't understand weird al. it's some weird post-hippy take on klezmer, but i feel like i'm missing something, some kind of intermediate step
trinque: indeed, I see the guy's session though and I screwed something up last update
asciilifeform writing draft trb-i spec
trinque: I'll be fixing !!key for a sec
trinque: he registered by short key ID; I'll be disallowing that
mircea_popescu: i mean i'm assuming he just made it...
mircea_popescu: i think this just got uploaded though ?
mircea_popescu: trinque i get 0 size ?
asciilifeform: i'ma go into the mathematical pit and properly formalize the recipe.
asciilifeform: (if there is a shortage of casks coming to me from upstream -- i raise my price for downstream. etc)
asciilifeform: i challenge the good folx here to find the lethal boojum in this algo. because it almost seems workable.
asciilifeform: (i.e. the inner cask)
asciilifeform: to rewrite formally, a cask is a C = sig_h1(sig_h2(sig_h3(.....sig_m('i'll mine a tx for q btc/kb...'))); tx author signs, author_sig(my_tx + C)
asciilifeform: here is how it'd work, roughly. a miner generates rsa-signed messages , occasionally, let's call'em 'empty casks'. a cask consists of a declaration, 'i'll include a tx within N blocks, i promise, for Q btc/kByte; and oh, here's a nonce.' the casks are distributed to the next level of nodes away from the miner ;
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 21:41 asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619483 << funnily enough , this is what i had sketched out when i mentioned http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619409 ☝︎☝︎
mircea_popescu: there's even a name for it, i forget.
mircea_popescu: thats the cost of market usage. i can do it when i want.
asciilifeform: and i did not have to suck anything behind the curtain...
asciilifeform: i do not know for sure. but i have send personally some 0fee tx, and -- somewhat to my surprise -- they got mined
asciilifeform: the way i see the empty blocks, and mass of 0fee tx, is that it resembles the old days of petro drilling , when natural gas was flared off
asciilifeform: (if i landed, a martian, on earth, and found that almost all beer is given out for free and with 0 strings attached - i would infer that beer is a type of industrial waste..)
asciilifeform: wasn't referring to the d00d with the cock ring, but to 'i have control of an addr with btc in it, and willing to pay the market rate fee, mine my tx' arbitrary martian.
mircea_popescu: but yes, all metaeconomic motivation. i wouldn't call it ccountereconomic. much like me treating the whores well in the 90s contrary to male ideology of the time was not countereconomic.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:04 mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
asciilifeform: seems like oddball masochism gear, i've never seen it outside of mircea_popescu's links..
mircea_popescu: it is the format i expect the market to take once block subsidy drops enough, which is to say in 2 to 3 halvings.
mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently. ☟︎
trinque: I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing the rules by which miners might be filtering transactions.
trinque: do I have an interest in affording him this?
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno that it does that.
trinque: I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
trinque: i.e. collecting them to insert into the block
trinque: rather than the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid to] produce a block)
trinque: why am I relaying txn to 99% of people who aren't going to do a damned thing with it
asciilifeform: which any way i picture it, is suicidal
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand trinque , he pictured a trbi where miners would advertise 'hi, i'ma miner, and i'd like some tx of yours'
asciilifeform: if anything, nuking the possibility of pools (as for instance i favour) would exacerbate it.
asciilifeform: trinque: say we stick to the trb-i thread. gotta specify what specifically about your concept of trbi, that would remove the incentive for miner secrecy that exists in classical bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619279 << i suspect the blockchain-node vs mempool-node split (3rd or so item to be jetisoned) happened like... two years in. once they got the "ligthweight" nodes or w/e bullshit ; non-verifying miner nodes et all. ☝︎
asciilifeform: so i'll be the 1st to tell trinque 'thanks'
asciilifeform: i'd like to connect dulap to one, instead of trudging through ocean of prb
trinque: asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants to mine"
trinque: in which case cost is upon me and the miners I talked to, and nobody else's shoulders
trinque: but I don't see what any of that benefits
asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought. ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
mircea_popescu: somehow fails to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey, turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619252 << i would say that's exactly what happens. ☝︎
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and i can hardly picture the low-density 'subcoinbases' actually ever making it into a block .
asciilifeform: as i see it, what is missing here is the knapsack per se
asciilifeform: i.e. what does the vectorization actually accomplish ?
danielpbarron: the thing i was imagining had two different things that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A to B ; creating new coins out of thin air. and anyone can create the new coins, no matter how much hash power they have. the big miners could still exist to supply high quality coins, while the common user could mine low quality coins
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
asciilifeform: ( now! for all i know, they wrote directly to mircea_popescu . but notice that he is not burning with the desire to share this fact. the secrecy incentive remains even for folks N degrees separated from a known miner ! )
trinque: this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
trinque: I can send you a completely empty block now as a miner, and you'll take it
trinque: how is "accurate" defined other than "verifies against the last block I have"
trinque: that doesn't follow from what I said.
asciilifeform: but now picture if i had to own one of the six cartel nodes, to have a verifiable copy of blockchain.
asciilifeform: but i can transmit.
asciilifeform: in so far as i can unmistakeably ~determine~ that my tx was not mined -- and know when it ~is~ -- i can transmit. it can take potentially infinite time...
trinque: so what, I mined a block and I ignored you
asciilifeform: but i can transmit a tx. (for the time being)
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space. ☟︎
trinque: all I need is prior blocks; wtf am I running this mempool on a non-miner for?
trinque: asciilifeform: why can I not simply transmit the txn directly to any node which has said via protocol "I want txns"
danielpbarron: i've wondered that too, trinque
trinque: let him take the expense; I'll verify his block later
trinque: miner wants the chicks, yet I'm supposed to STD test them for him
trinque: blast to nodes I know which have indicated an interest in mining them
asciilifeform: i could picture some clever mathemagical route whereby each hop can only take a portion of what the n-1-th node consented to -- but i know of no algo to make it thinkable.
asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes. ☟︎
asciilifeform: oooook i finally realized that the problem -- as stated above -- is unsolvable
asciilifeform: ( the above ^ now that i think about it, could be simplified to mircea_popescu's earlier 'node accepts if you put an output to his addr in your tx' )
asciilifeform: i can think of ~one~ approach, so far: tx creator asks his first-hop node for a nonce, which he then incorporates into his tx, which protocolically declares consent to the node fee. similarly to how miner fee already works. BUT this does not solve the problem of how 2nd ... nth hops, could add anything whatsoever meaningful to the tx.