log☇︎
70400+ entries in 0.537s
mircea_popescu: "oh, nobody uses X anymore". dude... if i wanted to accessorize i'd just read cosmo.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: if i had to guess -- probably by munging bdb
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i wonder how these folks did it https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf
asciilifeform: ( i , like complete idiot, wanted to 'let's write a quick c proggy like blkcut' )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yes, i move extremely slowly.
asciilifeform: i thought philosophy was supposed to distinguish man from rat
asciilifeform: (iirc reiser is what i originally suggested for this experiment)
asciilifeform: the 1 fs i know of that MIGHT come close, is reiser
mircea_popescu: i think it's innocent sarcasm.
diana_coman: I took that to be very-much-needed-sarcasm ; Framedragger knows best whether it was still innocent hope instead
mircea_popescu: no i meant the epic "justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ^ i thought you might lulz
Framedragger: i'm sure it's justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works
mircea_popescu: i guess it's technically just 99.93% huh.
mircea_popescu: well i've seen some multi-tb hdds :D
mircea_popescu: i've not seen any. would be more interesting to test for the hole manually by fuzzing on testnet
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: which means that i don't see how it could work even given mystery-amazing fs performance (...), *space-wise*.
mircea_popescu: i am.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625413 << i will also remind that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625312 which (i forgot this last night) means that in my view, there's no friggin' way eight-level-deep tree structure can hold transactions. every symlink is a file, and on top of that, with 8 levels, most about every transaction will create multiple additional folders ☝︎☝︎
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ^ i think you might lulz.
asciilifeform: eeeevery single fucking time i sit down and assume that shitoshi did the obvious, simple, correct thing, and build a hypothetical on ~that~, i later open the binder and find that -- guess what
asciilifeform: the Right Thing, as i see it, is : if a tx is in orphaned block, it does not belong in the index table
asciilifeform: now, there is one nuance ( that i'm not convinced shitoshi adequately dealt with, either , see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0755 for instance )
mircea_popescu: i'm not even proposing we abuse ext, i just wish to know if it could work. so far, unencouraging.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, opened the binder of horrors, with trb src, and found some lulz, which is actually what i sat down at the terminal to share:
mircea_popescu: how am i going to profile your dreams ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
asciilifeform: anyway i described an algo that wasn't retarded and doesn't pull in 10,000 lines of open sores ???. and it's as if this neverhappened, for some reason.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625333 << as i also described earlier, there are fundamental problems with all 'general purpose' fs, from bitcoin pov. mainly, they 'pessimize' for 'least common case', which happens to be our ~most~ common case : creation of file ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 14:33 Framedragger: kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me)
mircea_popescu: what i want to hear is, (preferably proof) as to why journaling filesystem can't store files in directories!
phf: i think the deep value in an exercise like "replace db with a filesystem" is the reduction of moving parts. ext2 is a straightforward inode based tree, with a separate relocation phase, etc. journaling adds the whole overhead (for it's primarily cognitive) of secondary redundancy that you now have to factor into all your considerations
Framedragger: kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me) ☟︎
Framedragger: yes that's what i meant. which, i dunno, maybe bad assumption of 'only one chain', or sth.
Framedragger: yeah but i forgot how to bitcoin. i guess blockheight bad idea?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: so in your proposed-to-be-tested scheme, there are two separate eight-deep trees? may i ask, why do blocks need their own tree - after all, it's just an int. do you expect block number to overflow an unsigned 32 bit int? because you *really* don't need 8-deep structure for dispersing 2**32 nodes (again: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png )
mircea_popescu: there's an item in the specification of journaling that it must not work which i missed or something ?
mircea_popescu: phf i don't follow. so what if they are ?
phf: i believe alf even pointed out the obvious "journaling file systems are going to journal"
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623751 i suppose i couldve started with ext2 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: phf well he's considering what he's considering, seeing how he's doing the measuring. i was kinda biasing towards ext2 in the previous discussions (which i guess nobody reads or something ?) , but hey, can't impede man's independent manhood!
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625335 << i'm surprised that ext4 is even considered, as opposed to ext2. i believe we even had a thread about it some long time ago ☝︎
mircea_popescu: Framedragger in any case i don't expect to optimize BEFORE DESIGNING holy shit. talk about early optimizations. this is the measuring stage. you optimize nothing.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: sure, but do you expect to reach **10^24** nodes before trb-i?? (http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png)
Framedragger: (you'd need to have a *lot* of blocks to have average num of files per second-to-deepest dir be >= 1; i dont think one needs 8 levels, but i see the point in trying this)
Framedragger: also, as asciilifeform said, cache can really confuse the hell out of any metrics. e.g., disk cache. so i'd need to probably restart whole box to be sure (yes lol, but i think i should)
mircea_popescu: "oh i had a job i went to work through traffic every morning"
Framedragger: yeah i especially liked the amazing speed of directory deletion
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:11 mircea_popescu: i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.
mircea_popescu: yeah i don't have a problem with you. still monumentally pissed off.
Framedragger: hey, you wanted some fs test, i'm just reporting on levels of shittiness found
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for completeness, i should state that it may be "workable" (in the sense of slightly less horrible) to just keep a flat dir tree structure, one or two levels deep - if you don't ask fs to list files in dir and just want to access filenames you already know, it's ~okay-ish. but i think i agree that the whole fs idea needs to be dumped, in general
shinohai: I awake to the screeches of `PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET` this morning with coffee. Hail to the Trumpreich.
mircea_popescu: i suspect alf exhibits the same issue.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:16 asciilifeform: if some unknown d00d had not written to me last night, even now i might be doing it
Framedragger: (with that, i bid goodnight)
phf: mircea_popescu: i noticed that here focusing on something is an incentive for others to also focus on it
asciilifeform: phf: didja miss where i noted that i wrote to them ? and signed fat cheques to some of'em ?
mircea_popescu: why phrase it as this rather than plainly "i will" ? to place disincentive on others doing it ? (hey, if i do it he won't) rather than incentive (he's doing it, let me do it too) ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 19:06 phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
mircea_popescu: consider the point! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and he;ll just say a string with kindergarten in it". ☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i find ~opposite~ with su engineers
asciilifeform: trinque: the interesting bit, and yes i drilled deeply enough through the dried gangrene to get at the pus, is that there were and remain people who enjoy sitting on the embers of dead smbx more than they want to see the tech come back to life
mircea_popescu: yes, yes. i'm just being an asshole.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if my cock were one of 10 in existence, and the chicks all knew, and still avoided, i would have to seriously wonder wtf, maybe it points in wrong direction, or i have dog's head, or what.
asciilifeform: phf: it just blows my mind, if random d00d had not tipped me off, i could handily go ANOTHER 8 YEARS of ida
mircea_popescu: (dude made fb event "i've deflorarated myself!")
mircea_popescu: i even knew this! say eg http://trilema.com/2015/el-defloreador-tum-tum-tudum-tum-tum/
phf: i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it
asciilifeform: say where it wants to go, i'll fedex it, at own expense.
asciilifeform: anyway phf i meant american postbox
asciilifeform: sorta how i hand-delivered sample rng to c3
mircea_popescu: there is also that i guess.
phf: i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.
asciilifeform: also i never had any problems mailing to ru
asciilifeform: srsly, i'm not one of them weird folx who whisper around. phf can have the iron, or gpggram where to send.
mircea_popescu: i mail to/fro russia all teh time ?
phf: asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i expect, yes.
phf: i think there's a lot of general "couldn't care less"-ness going on all around. whisperers don't care about asciilifeform's plight
mircea_popescu: i truly couldn't care less.
asciilifeform: phf: i can't speak for mircea_popescu , but i don't specialize in hasty conclusions
asciilifeform: i forgive him all
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:57 asciilifeform: this isn't the only 1 on the net, either, i found several, they bought lispms, one took hundreds of photos of himself 'hipstering' near it, then one final one where it (??!) burned down
asciilifeform: now if phf dun wanna publish his src, whateverses, who am i to say that he must
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 17:37 phf: i'm not sure, but i remember you have to put a handful of magic incantations to live fix clx on genera to make it connect to crapple's x11
mircea_popescu: and yes, i understand how fucking petryfing and utterly enraging this is, "shit, wtf do these dorks sit on i need and they won't say"
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did describe earlier, having concluded a few yrs ago that it is cheaper, easier, moar pleasant, to cut appart 'snap4' emulator (i have a pc build here ~with debug symbols~, comes apart in ida nicely) than to suffer with nitric acid and electron microscope
asciilifeform: i also uttered http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623406 for instance. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-07 19:02 asciilifeform: all i got, for the most part, is what is in the wall-o-deadtree manuals, and what i gleaned from reversing 'snap4' binary in ida.
asciilifeform: i did mention http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598449 for instance. ☝︎
asciilifeform: why would i buy the machine and haul it up into my flat to saw it open, if 'already knew all'
phf: he's welcome, in his own words, to "go, implement". having read that code, i'm unconvinced that it's the "buddha's front gate" to a working lispm fpga
phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there ☟︎
asciilifeform: i'll buy this, because i'd rather buy this than 'phf is afraid of smbxmasons revenge'
phf: asciilifeform comes on very strong with the whole "i know" shtick, so i simply assumed that he knows what he wants to know.
asciilifeform: i could, with difficulty, believe, sure.
mircea_popescu: tru story : i wrote to romanian minister of foreign affairs incensed romanian consul failed to answer my emails. turns out... clever spamfilter, woman was mortified.
mircea_popescu: "see that chick at the table two over ? no don't look! yeah! so she knows i'm trying to get laid, and doesn't want me to get laid!!11"