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asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680895 << funnily enough i no longer have a single pair of boxes that share same ram stick type.. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: trinque amusingly, candi does sort-of this, as a prototype of it.

mircea_popescu: in other lulz, i took girl + car out on a survey of local brothels tonite. ☟︎

BingoBoingo: " Huel‏ @gethuel Jun 19 A new concept in food - 100% vegan with protein, fatty acids, fiber and 27 essential vitamins and minerals." << Poor naming. "Huel" is mostly known to USians as the name of the fat pickpocket on some "prestige" tv show.

trinque: "connect" too, is not quite right, as it would be a superior model for me to huck a request to you, which ~maybe~ you get, and which ~maybe~ you drop on the floor at wire speed, and maybe you huck me something back, if you want.

trinque: concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate... ☟︎

trinque meanders to a point

trinque: there, gopher wins against http in that it enforces a strict tree

a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 00:27 sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680865 << is it not such a task as serialization/deserialization? using such as http://www.cliki.net/serialization?

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680872 << no, would among other things, have a standard for expressing structure metadata. see information_schema for a bad example in idiotlandia, or WSDLs for even worse, or... ☝︎

mircea_popescu: at least it's conceptually a thing, as opposed to "here's some data, and here's some half-tagging, and here's some half-code with it"

mircea_popescu: (a punk, it bears reminding, is a young man who takes it up the ass on the quiet.)

mircea_popescu: come a long way, have we, from those early bumbling days of early bumbling intellects.

asciilifeform: ( the other detail, of course, is that the idea of standardization went along with a distinct odor of 'lion and lamb sit down to agree on dinner' in those days . or consider microshit-led 'opendocument committee' etc in more recent times. )

asciilifeform: naturally you can still stuff these down a wire. and the box, of course, did so ( to disk, tape, 'chaosnet', etc.)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680868 << recall that the variation was not as simple as 'this one here has 8bit byte but this one - 11, but each one simply represents a 2**n-1 range of uint' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 00:27 sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680865 << is it not such a task as serialization/deserialization? using such as http://www.cliki.net/serialization?

mircea_popescu: i dun have a general suggestion, perhaps just sit down with the whole thing and make an actual data diagram thing ?

sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680865 << is it not such a task as serialization/deserialization? using such as http://www.cliki.net/serialization? ☝︎☟︎☟︎

sina: mircea_popescu: suggestions on avoiding ad-hoc datatypes? one idea I was thinking was for example rather than ../messages/<msg_hash> file with contents "sender,delivered_by,message", have a directory ../messages/<msg_hash>/sender|delivered_by|message files?

asciilifeform: trinque: iirc this is one of the things the symbolics folx had to make a proprietary gadget for, because it is nowhere in the standard

trinque: I'd say folks yes, use sqlite because they did not reason the program out completely before beginning to write code, but they often use postgresql as a messaging platform, RPC, or what have you

trinque: what it lacks (at least as part of the CLOS standard, afaik) is a standard for how one CLOS program shares objects and methods with another, whether on same box or across the network. ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:44 mircea_popescu: a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680454 << it can be used for this, yes, but because it is a tool for building a taxonomy. many programs reduce to building a catalog of a (mutable) set of objects. ☝︎

asciilifeform: i thought 'rap' lyrics were officially required to come out of a certified an'sealed shannonizer, like las vegas one armed bandit rng

mircea_popescu: wait, he's trying to turn the horde of aging "trynna make it as a pimp" blacks into good consumers with credit cards ?

BingoBoingo: “You wanna know what’s more important than throwin away money at a strip club? Credit/ You ever wonder why Jewish people own all the property in America? This how they did it.” << Line by noted White Supremacist Jay-Z

mircea_popescu: "looks like a python that's trying to swallow a buncha smaller snakes"

asciilifeform: lol looks like a python who tried to eat two golf balls

sina: still needs a tad work to make the code a bit easier to read and finish model.delete_peer()

sina: if you're an enemy capable of capturing a gossiptron and knowing of the things, why wouldn't you?

mircea_popescu: well suppose enemy finds a gossiptron. why should he be able to tell which keys were bogus ?

mircea_popescu: and if a machine is captured, and so on

sina: because I definitely remember in the past thinking thoughts along the lines of "filesystem is a ~btree, rdbms is a ~btree, why am I ~btree on top of ~btree", and reading discussions about this topic on the internet, and feel like I remember *someone* mentioning something about this

mircea_popescu: this is fine, as a general notion, but what is it based on ?

sina: agreed and understood, I am just subtly trying to make the point of "making me implement a shittier sqlite"

mircea_popescu: basically, every sql index = a directory tree

mircea_popescu: sina to find out which keys aren't assigned you also keep a /keys/available then

mircea_popescu: well, if you wish to assign a SPECIFIC key, then you must edit the /keys/assigned/key.symlink reference to point to it.

sina: or implement a chunk of mv/ln in my code

sina: if its a matter of moving a key from keys/available/???.key => keys/assigned/name_of_peer_assigned.key ...or symlinking as you mention

sina: for the assigned keys, it seems fine to have a directory like key/name_of_peer_assigned.key

sina: so there are 3 "states" for a key, 1. available, 2. bogus, 3. assigned

sina: for now it's set to clean up anything older than a week every week

sina: alright, now back to my /tmp dir to try and prototype a fs based thing

sina: fair. names are limited currently to [a-zA-Z0-9_]+

mircea_popescu: and if a guy named "self" sends it ?

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:11 mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!

asciilifeform: ( and i dun even claim a magical handle on all that is possible. for all i know, next d00d will turn my 2.5k into 250. somehow. )

asciilifeform: ( when thin enough -- released. even if a little slow. because i want folx to begin to grasp. )

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:35 sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing

asciilifeform: ( for instance, i go and run on a crapple , with slower clock but larger l1, and get 1/7th the interval spent )

a111: Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .

asciilifeform: i.e. when asciilifeform measures his $proggy runs, he is measuring at the same time a possibly unreproducible combo of ssd+ram+cpu+...

asciilifeform: imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.

asciilifeform: imho best use of measurement, is to measure unknowns. rather than to try to determine, with ruler, how many degrees a triangle's internals add up to.

mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with measuring the world around. an attempt to explain why this is a waste of time isn't really going to be entertained.

asciilifeform: i'm already on record as having described, in agonizing detail, why it is a monumental waste of time, but if mircea_popescu et al not convinced -- welcome to 'piss on electric fence'

a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 23:46 asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i still didn't get what i'd call good numbers / a good measurement.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a ☝︎

ben_vulpes: a reasonable daring, my patience for aramaic went the way of my patience for kanji etc

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: talmud likely five hundred years to early of a comparison

mod6: and as far as pete_dushenski or whomevers quest to write a log digest or whatever, it never happened. the foundation briefly considered a role for gathering up trb related parts, but that was set aside in exchange for tb0t

mod6: sometimes its a tmsr-ism like 'printolade'

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680538 << there are times when i spend a whole day only reading the l0gz... ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:01 mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ? ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:00 phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680530 << i actually attempted this , a coupla yrs ago, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680517 << this is quite a bit moar 'mean gurlz' than actually in play, phf. i dun give anything like the suggested amount of fuck. the educable - learn, the rest - will learn by pissing on the electric fence personally; or, when far too late, already having 'fucked the cousin' etc. ☝︎

asciilifeform: and partly in that i find the 'prototype' that solves 0 of the difficult problems, simply not interesting. i can write a perlism that pushes shitrsa packets over tcp etc. in half hour. but why.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680511 << partly it is that i'd like to do a fair share of keeping the snr high, by... ~not having same thread 9000 times~, see if perhaps the l0gz will do their bit and answer ' what does asciilifeform say to X ? ' q for those folx who have it ☝︎

mod6: as a way to teach it to myself, i've been poking around with a v impl.

mod6: looks like was taken on a proper ny roof

mod6: sina: sure, think on it for a bit. no rush.

mircea_popescu: not like you HAVE TO. twas a suggestion.

mircea_popescu: mod6 there's a part two of our show : http://68.media.tumblr.com/949f80bdc5e21cf0d317e4f5b5a3b369/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo1_500.gif

sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing ☟︎

mircea_popescu: sina you can implement your whatever as a binary tree, leverage the directory structure, and simply check if there's a file / write it.

mircea_popescu: sina or just you know, look into how to do btree and have a hash something ?

sina: mircea_popescu: but still even in that case I need to "walk" the list of assignments, looking for ^available, so I need to use grep or write a iterating-finder-thingo myself and then something like sed to change the line or write a text-changer-at-a-line myself

sina: imagine flatfile example of "assigning" generated key from "available" => "user" state, or "user" => "bogus" state, that's moving a keyfile from gossipd/keys/available to gossipd/keys/users/foo or similar action, now my program has to either invoke "mv" or write mv-like functionality into my app

a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )

sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680437 << why I used a db: because the spec said use flatfile, I first tried to implement flatfile one and after realising I would need to either shell out to utilities like "touch" and/or "find"/"ls" etc, or implement some of their functionality myself, I decided to import a library that does that stuff not terribly, called sqlite ☝︎

sina: did you make a lispy one go faster? ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-05 15:39 phf: sina: is that ^ a correct method?

mod6: i think it's highly interesting, but indeed, there's a lot of depth. sometimes takes a while to grok the threads. that's my own personal take. getting old, not for me anyway.

mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any. ☟︎

phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!" ☟︎

mircea_popescu: yeah, whole line sounds a lot like baiting, but not at all my intention.

phf: that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)

mod6: in this case, even the sina has said so himself, is a simple prototype. i find prototypes to be typically worth making. often there is something to be learned from them.

phf: or perhaps now that he has successfully served as the main driving force behind the tenets of tmsr technology and ensured that they are collectively accepted, he doesn't need to reaffirm them as much. but i also have wonder if the tenets have as much of a galvanizing effect now that we mostly had a chance to observe both their positive and negative effects?

mircea_popescu: you have a theory as to why ?

mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word! ☟︎

asciilifeform: unless mircea_popescu has a very odd, martian meat comp

mircea_popescu: guy is kinda predictable, his previous codebase was a cartoon-colored illustration of the impossibility of autodidacticism

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to form a realistic mental model, of computer per se. but far less so of 'optimizing' claptrap.