log☇︎
56600+ entries in 0.036s
BingoBoingo: !!invoice mircea_popescu 0.0578066 S.MG test server monthly
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo is that a new math ? << It is 0.002 x 12 with a 10% discount applied
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is that a new math ?
mircea_popescu: and i suspect this fundamental intuition is what drives a lot of high socialism (like high protestantism, the nonsense among intelligent folks, as opposed to low) -- the intuition that the 1800 notion of money, perfectly adequate as it is for concretes, utterly fails on abstracts and what one needs is a lot more abstracts than concretes.
BingoBoingo: !!invoice mircea_popescu 0.0.0578066 S.MG test server monthly
mircea_popescu: (because money is like taiwan -- now you gotta drive)
mircea_popescu: ie, he wants sufficient claim to fame as to make the "i'd like to live rather than die" proposition defensible. he doesn't even want money as such at all
mircea_popescu: he wants ~to be able to get other professionals to help him when he needs it~, he doesn't want "more dough" specifically and as such.
mircea_popescu: which is ultimately the problem here -- note the orig formulation wasn't in "so many dollars" terms. it was very much nearly the http://trilema.com/2013/regarding-money/
mircea_popescu: it is very fucking dubious to imagine market will "find price" to tell naggum how much of his code-juju he has to give up to doctor.
asciilifeform: ( and , as asciilifeform is fond of observing, stalin's approach on many occasions performed 9000x better than merchant's dubloons approach )
mircea_popescu: it's perfectly find to "let market find price of steel hull ship".
mircea_popescu: but the 1900s gold dubloons do NOT work for this. because lines of code, or "eyeballs upon cell cultures" are NOT like barels of fish.
mircea_popescu: and if you answer this, you necessarily answer "how to value work" as well as "what meaning has king's arbitrarity" and so on.
mircea_popescu: so this is what i thought we were discussing -- "some inefficiency necessarily part of world". yes, agreed -- but how much ?
mircea_popescu: (if you get that x ray machine delivered, you can tell what % of socket power it wastes)
asciilifeform: right -- even if yer king, resources still finite. consider stalin's dilemma of whether to withdraw zhukov's army from far east. ( banked on zorge's report that jp will not break peace treaty, and withdrew 80% . but still had to leave some )
mircea_popescu: and don't tell me "money". money is eminently broken in handling all this, proof positive being that if you get a hospital bill you can't say if it's correct or not
mircea_popescu: at this juncture, if the king falls ill every doctor in the realm will crowd the palace, and if the provincial governor of taiwan happens to need apendectomy he might even die.
mircea_popescu: suppose suppose the lordship owns the world, in all particulars, entirely. the last rebel was long ago executed. i can write to any and all doctors, "hey, please X". so can you. so can etcetera.
asciilifeform rewinds tape..
mircea_popescu: i don't think you were following my "suppose". let's do over.
asciilifeform: in his discussion where, approx, 'yes it's good and well that some folx sit and solve ~some~ problems in spare time from salt mine, but not all problems are susceptible to this treatment'
mircea_popescu: ie, "yes, that's untenable, but no this is stupid (and ultimately also untenable), so..."
asciilifeform: my impression when reading was that he was thinking of asciilifeform's variant of resistive loss. but possible asciilifeform's bias.
mircea_popescu: however you call it. but it seems to me, which was the original driver, it seems to me naggum's dilemma illustrates a missing chunk rather than anything else.
asciilifeform: ( simply to nitpick!11 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the item you were thinking of, then, i'd call impedance mismatch loss, rather than plain resistive
mircea_popescu: believe this or not, i reach such levels of chinese emperorhood.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually the girls tie my shoes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah, that's not at ALL what was meant by "resistive loss". what was meant was, some labour wastage will occur through guy A getting 1.epsilon the work he needs while guy B getting 1-epsilon and perhaps dying for it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's is, let's suppose, 1%, however much time he spends tying his shoes and operating the levers of his outer empire
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's a whole other can of intricate strange. i wasn't gonna address it till as you say, some l1 folks move on.
asciilifeform: ( in case forgot, asciilifeform spends 80+% of time on perpetrating saecular warcrimes in microshit land, rather than anyffing useful )
asciilifeform: the allocations thing
mircea_popescu: where's this relate ?
asciilifeform can speak only for self, but on various occasions risked piggy bank to try an' convert from serf to d00d who '100% worx from cause', but on each occasion lost shirt. maybe other l1 folx will have better fortune, and sit on mt olympus with mircea_popescu , i dun presently expect to
mircea_popescu: they're statements of the same problem.
mircea_popescu: the above "question of valuation" as well as the "it'd better make sense" readily translate into "give me resistive loss formula".
mircea_popescu: in short : the current system of allocating labour is offensively stupid ; and the rudiments of what we have here promise to work. but so far... spreading dun work!
asciilifeform: this aint any moar avoidable than resistive losses in mains wiring
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform falls sick, and he suddenly has 95 surgeons at his bedstand, because well known and respected and so on. meanwhile young'un dies somewhere i nsilence. asciilifeform could have readily dispensed with the spurious 95th surgeon, kept 94. but... power laws right, and http://trilema.com/2013/stage-n-bitcoin-exists/#selection-101.196-101.253
mircea_popescu: consider this taken to extremes : suppose the lordship's a few hundred, ie the most it can ever possibly take, and each are castles with hundreds of knights within and so on.
mircea_popescu: this is nice and dandy -- until someone actually needs some work of their own.
mircea_popescu: it is certainly a good thing emperor of china is not gifting taiwans right now. but the matter remains -- the reward for good work is generally more work in the same vein.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd hope that mircea_popescu knows how to drive a taiwan, cuz chances are that i'd wrap it around a telephone pole, lol
mircea_popescu: taiwan will have to have a governor, and i will do what ? name the most capable ? the most bored ? suppose we do the medieval thing and separate the work from the benefice. then who gets the latter ? and so on.
asciilifeform: the 1 occasion where related, is coupla instances in yrs past when asciilifeform's 'from cause' worx ground to a halt on acct of having to earn bread in saeculum, then asciilifeform rolls eyes at folx who 'motherfucker, where is the promised X/Y/Z'
mircea_popescu: consider tomorrow emperor of china writes in, wants to give taiwan to republic as peace gift.
mircea_popescu: this seems to me unrelated.
asciilifeform: ( and it dun keep us from making mutually happy trades on other occasions )
asciilifeform: i dun complain that, e.g., mircea_popescu pays for ice cream but not udplib, it's his dubloons, just as he dun complain that asciilifeform buys ice cream instead of euloratronium, errybody is master of own chest, large or small
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
asciilifeform: it'll make sense, in the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704268 model. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the decision'd better make sense, which is to say, meaningful rather than arbitrary.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is ~exactly~ what i'm leveraging : ALL abstractions are "closed-source" by their very nature -- witness how cats don't read them. then let's use this natural barrier to select the future lordship.
asciilifeform: sorta why odin put him upon the green earth
asciilifeform: for the d00d handing out the medals to decide, neh
mircea_popescu: given a set of ("the place formerly known as sudan", "a monopoly on aviation", "the empire state building") and ("has written proper sgml", "heroically reversed bolix stack","found way to write without getting out of bed"), which is the correct matching ?
asciilifeform: i.e. just about all of the problems of 'closed' world , were re-created on substrate of 'open', without anyone so much as deliberately trying
a111: Logged on 2018-04-06 21:12 asciilifeform: a 500k-loc ( ignoring even for a moment the far greater heft of 'modern' wonders ) c/cpp proggy is, for all intents and purposes, closed-source, even if every line is published, because it is quite impossible for anyone -- even author -- to get a proper grip on its behaviour space
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1 of my nitpicks with the 'open/closed wars' people is the annoying fact of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-06#1793733 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sadly we'll never know what he'd have said, avik got to him first.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-01 18:01 asciilifeform: i dun work for prizes, medals, mircea_popescu knows this.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's little sadder in creation than overstretched underachievers, "oh, i got perfect sat scores" "why ?"
mircea_popescu: so to sum all this up : naggum is right in that what he does can't be free. naggum is wrong in that the tangible expression of abstracts could have value (what next, doctor supports self by selling ultrasound drawings ?!) ; and moreover closed code in the copyright/microsoft sense makes the slaves&harem&wot world impossible.
asciilifeform: ( and will add, it is ordinarily trivial to distinguish folx who theorem 'from causes' from the ones who 'for purposes' i.e. 'maybe someone throws penny into hat' )
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ie, i would propose as a foundational myth, "avik killed naggum". there's something here. << And he did it for (((packing))) Peanuts!
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced that naggum would've disagreed with this formulation tho
mircea_popescu: doctor goes "well... i guess i could sleep... but i dun feel like it... or i could farm... meh farming... let's see if there's something interesting to do".
mircea_popescu: because that's not a state of mind conducive to doctoring in the first place.
asciilifeform: or because likes to sing
asciilifeform: well yes. singing on street corner with hat 'please throw a penny' is not 'from surplus'
mircea_popescu: it's not that you don't expect it ; it's that you don't need it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the timing's wrong. without ~need~.
mircea_popescu: the thinking by which you hope to pay the bills, that's how you get C and mass marketed "films".
mircea_popescu: but because "eh, whatever, fridge's too full anyway, let's do somethjing interesting today".\
mircea_popescu: it's a case of wheel powering engine again. all abstract work is a surplus phenomena because the surprlus predates the work. not because "we're poor, but we hope to pay the bills by thinking".
mircea_popescu: that's the confounding approach there.
asciilifeform: well yes, anyffing published without expectation of moolah, is 'surplus phenomena', whether theorem or proggy or symphony etc
mircea_popescu: because it's what it is, if you're hungry go farm, if you're lonely go spawn. if you're nothing in particular -- which is to say, if you're finally human -- how about you do something useful finally.
mircea_popescu: but that's incorrect. ~thoguht~ and especially ~abstract work~ is a surplus phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: yes, upwards social mobility only ever works this way.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and sometimes, the salvation of slaves comes from reading trilema instead of sleep and so on.
mircea_popescu: because there's strictly no other way.
mircea_popescu: and so here's how feudalism becomes inescapable : man will have to get sudan or w/e land (plus the attached bipedal or multipedal livestock) in exchange for having written republican smgl or w/e.
asciilifeform: sometimes abstract work is done by kamikazes who do it from principle, at the expense of sleep and walks in park, the way asciilifeform bakes e.g. ffa. but in general yes , it simply dun happen because nobody pays.
mircea_popescu: this dun fucking work in practice, for the reasons obvious from the proper formulation.
mircea_popescu: note how the "solution" idiots came up with (and failed to verbalize) was exactly "consultancy", ie, "we'll live off the value of the particularizing tail of our generalizing workl"
mircea_popescu: (above, generalizing work is work that done once serves many ; particularizing is work which has to be done every time, and each time according to a standard).
mircea_popescu: copyright is a deeply dysfunctional, dumb and braindamaged attempt to "open" the crown allocation process.
mircea_popescu: to bring this full circle : the perceived difference between particularizing (doctor) and generalizing (computer scientist) abstract work is entirely hallucinated. the ~only~ way to correctly pay for abstract work is as allocations from crown.
mircea_popescu: ~they~ choose the shaman.
mircea_popescu: which is why hospitals don't let you choose the shaman.
mircea_popescu: the domain specialist is uniquely unqualified and deeply unable to hire computer expert.
mircea_popescu: the problem doesn't need to be stated in terms of "oil, gas" bla bla, "let's imagine adults still exist somewhere". this dork works for a packaging manufacturer, but the problem's evident from the "small business owner" - "web expert" interactions, well documented online.
mircea_popescu: ie, i would propose as a foundational myth, "avik killed naggum". there's something here.
asciilifeform: then saw the very tools of his trade vanishing, as the commercial lisp people slowly starved cuz idjits went 'let's hire 9000 java monkeys, freeeee tooling'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform our friend avik does the same, believe it or not.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, what we're building will collapse. and i can prove it, too -- very much goedelian crunch.