log☇︎
5100+ entries in 0.051s
asciilifeform: as it is, no one (surprise!1111) bakes.
asciilifeform: i would've added row/column lines , to cut down propagation delay when you bake internal bus, but it's moar or less exactly The Right Thing as-is
mp_en_viaje: hypercube's not particularly useful, as it's not a geometric shape. but even 2d, not bad.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i have nfi what the ' ~100kb init.sh (that ~requires root~) ' horror might be, the only ones i've ever used simply present as a hayes-style modem via usb (a la FG)
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:47 diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm"
mp_en_viaje: even THESE FUCKTARDS understand they need the wot, ideologically dedicated as they are to pretending otherwiswe.
asciilifeform: iirc ended with the old ban on peddling liquishit with ~0 actual ch. in it, as 'chocolate', formally overturned
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'avionics people' -- tried as i might, found only the hole, but not the fossil. ( ~somebody~ pressed for the lang standard to have the http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-349.0-1150.0 knobs. but who? and where used ? i do not know to this day )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:26 asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it.
diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm" ☟︎
asciilifeform: there aint so many names, even if you count erryone who's so much as touched the subj
diana_coman: yes; and client is entirely open up to players to make as well as they want to have it.
asciilifeform: i am unequipped to pontificate re euloratron, but as i recall the 'problem', such as there was, lives mostly in the 100MB+ of cpp legacy ???
diana_coman: this guy is the first that doesn't quite seem "c++ in ada" really i.e. he seems more focused on Ada for the right reasons; I suspect more the windows-based trouble as it were.
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it. ☟︎
diana_coman: and yes, it's certainly precisely the case that copious heapisms, pointerisms etc - the reason for it being as far as I can see quite obvious too: no sweating from 1st principles, much easier that way, sure
diana_coman: as I'm coming from a few years already of reading and wrestling planeshift code, I can't say it'll be reading heathen Ada that would cost me time, lol.
asciilifeform: if all yer 'strings' come from the inside of a large, static string, can represent'em simply as tuples , as pictured in above
diana_coman: as I said earlier: I don't think it *has to*; but he clearly doesn't have a problem with it and so he uses it; there are quite a few things grating, yes;
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-02#1610852 - as I found this only now when I stumbled upon Montmollin's various lib and had (for once!) a rather pleasant surprise: asciilifeform did you actually review any of his code? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 23:57 OriansJ: asciilifeform: No, I just haven't seen anything worth discussing, as I am only here to discuss the bootstrapping of Sane Iron and I will be here until I keep my word to bvt and have my discussion with mircea_popescu; to see if there is potential for mutually beneficial cooperation in regards to Sane Iron and Need to run something now.
mp_en_viaje: so im sitting here with coffee, disaronno an' excellent italian gelatto, tryna find the bottom. so far -- bottomless bimbos, as in the celebrated "sfondami tutta"
mp_en_viaje: intel is as much a computer maker as any umbrella shop.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 17:48 asciilifeform: ~that~ is how sane folx build irons. and not idjit intel's 'i'ma happily execute this random pile o'bits as a cpu instruction anytime' nonsense.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: No, I just haven't seen anything worth discussing, as I am only here to discuss the bootstrapping of Sane Iron and I will be here until I keep my word to bvt and have my discussion with mircea_popescu; to see if there is potential for mutually beneficial cooperation in regards to Sane Iron and Need to run something now. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ~that~ is how sane folx build irons. and not idjit intel's 'i'ma happily execute this random pile o'bits as a cpu instruction anytime' nonsense. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( and currently i suspect that there's 'majority' logic in the PALs, also , tho as of yet cannot say where )
asciilifeform: i would not classify this as 'clever attack'
asciilifeform: sorta like where asciilifeform one time found that an ancient box he was using as www toilet, would overheat an' shutdown when visiting particular sites; found in the end that they contained 'js miners' and the thermal grease had dried decade ago
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 21:31 mp_en_viaje: the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters".
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: dram ( at least such as sold as 'ddr3' and above ) is actually a scam, i.e. 'works unless the access pattern revisits $row 'too often' ) , this is moar of a shoddy konsoomer rubbish masquerading as deterministic component than an 'attack'
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, not a matter of softs. the dram protocol's as hardware as it gets.
asciilifeform: fughetting for a moment fpga : consider ordinary transistor, or even diode. it is not physically possible to bake a 'secretly smart' transistor that does s/mp-pubkey/gavin-pubkey in hopes of being put in somebody's serial port 1 day, and for it to have same analogue characteristics as genuine diode (not even speaking of what it'd look like under microscope)
mp_en_viaje: if you expect to detect electically isolated islands, as what you mean by "optically", then yes.
asciilifeform: then and only then it is meaningful to try an' audit the logic payload as a separate entity.
mp_en_viaje: but the point here was, that as long as what you're implemeting is, say, tcp, or dram, what you will get is not in fact a safely auditable object.
mp_en_viaje: neither are you. the only approach is to not use towers of shit. trying to calculate the resonance frequencies of arbitrary shitpiles is going to get you in the same line as karman went
asciilifeform: gotta flesh this one out tho, cuz as written it posits the conclusion. how does the raw device know that it is being put to use for tcpip ? rather than e.g. to control aquarium temp.
mp_en_viaje: this may also be true, but the true constraint is the relative height of the previous objection. inasmuch as your ethernet stack looks like an ethernet stack, you're not hiding it.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, as far as im personally concerned between mar 2019 and jan 2018 there intervened a lot of eulora-related endianism sads. incl the celebrated http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/
PeterL: recently I saw an ad for some brokerage service, they actually included as one of the selling points "you can feel like a trader!"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907307 << the map his vpatch viewer spits out should work with that subset ; so should something like http://wot.deedbot.org/6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452.html ; if you don't see a circle of links under the fingerprint, i expect your "subset of svg" is actually not functional on some level. though as he says, the actual possibility of having such a custom svg is dubious altogeter. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907276 << as a factual matter, it seems to work fine without javascript : http://browsershots.org/http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v ; it does not however work fine on broken browsers, which admittedly is quite the overwhelming majority of all browsers however counted. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907209 << it's not effective for you, personally. this is deliberate, because we deliberately do not wish to support the "foss ethos", so to call this contemporaneous impudence where sophomore medical school students expect to walk into operating theatres and start cutting on bodies as they lay on operating tables. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: (in fairness -- the why not is that by now bitter experience with all sorts of "libre" dorks has clearly shown they function as an imperial decoy and ~nothing else. i can't distinguish between "3d printing" sintered "guns", raspberry pi bullshit, and any other such item).
mp_en_viaje: specifically : just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of industrialisation, would have just as falsely appeared just as successful as "modern democracy", and just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of european stock, would have jus tas falsely appeared just as fundamental as xtianity, just so any attempt at computer design in the period of not-really-having-electronics'd have ended up braindamaged.
mp_en_viaje: it makes about as much sense to have os strings as it does to have os bitmaps.
mp_en_viaje: there's entirely no need of "utf/unicode/bs" ; the place where these go, as a mask atop bytes, is where "strings
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:48 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:59 OriansJ: Mocky: Don't get stuck on the idea of Floating point, it is just an example of classes of instructions that are complex to implement in hardware that a proper illegal instruction trap will allow us to move between hardware and software with no one else having to care what we are doing. As we want people programming to standards not to systems.
mp_en_viaje: likbez : any machine that can simulate itself is turing-complete. the word "machine" is meant most abstractly, something as bare-bones as maths people would call "a function" could conceivably qualify. an ~imagined~ tape with a theoretically defined reading head associated eminently qualifies. and so on.
mp_en_viaje: i reallly dislike noun strings, espcially as the count goes over 3.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:46 Mocky: and in addition you suggested floating point as software addon. turing completeness can now be achieved after the fact!
diana_coman: it's not hard to have a lot of luggage, sure; though I never really regretted having smaller luggage as it were (and I almost always find it too big, too much anyway!)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 18:46 phf: mircea_popescu: is the idea that message like logotron will render it as just "logotron" in html?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907008 << this is so ; actually if you feel like writing an as-complete-as-feasible list / essay it'll prolly turn into quite the workable schelling point for further discussion there. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907005 << this part is actually up in the air ; and premature yet for me to call for discussion or attempt a standardization process. from your pov, however, likely the most shocking aspect is that the republic doesn't consist of the usual developer, ie http://trilema.com/2018/and-in-todays-lulz-the-obnoxious-cocksucker/ aka the enthusiat dork who sees himself as some kind of trailblazer, finding new ways into the ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:45 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: well I guess we need to discuss short term vs long term expectations as those pieces seem to be multiple pieces pulling in different directions
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906994 << the long term expectation, along with the only possible direction, is the republic prevailing, in this as any other matter. there's a lot of ideological debt you may be interested in i guess. ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << the lordship list is over at http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ ; those are all (if not the only) contributors. in the immortal words of joe polito, "i'm telling you, as a courtesy. i need to do this thing, so it's gonna get done". ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906980 << yes ; progressing from a gentoo fork end, from an ada-as-systems-language end, from a bitcoin-has-to-be-an-os / needs-own-fs end, and from a few other too small to list yet. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
OriansJ: phf: well few people would understand that position; so I tend to express concepts in forms for general consumption. Even though it will result in loss of precision; as few people are technical enough to care about the details lost.
OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches. ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: phf: The choice of browser as per your previous comment
asciilifeform: ( observe, earlier linked fg, ffa , distributed strictly as vpatches )
asciilifeform: the engine http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis/tree/fg.v incidentally is 100% siliconizable as it stands.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you're interested in concrete approach of asciilifeform to design of iron, i invite to study http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html , item asciilifeform designed & sold ( two runs sold out 100% , possibly in near future we bake a 3rd, on ice40 and photoscintillator , as discussed in logs )
asciilifeform: largely to experiment with the orig. os , it was an item quite far ahead of what today is taught as 'state of art'. but the iron also imho is good starting point for hypothetical sane iron.
asciilifeform: and specifically as illustration of the physical limits of thompsonism, in the abstract
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I am good with that as well; provided we actually bootstrap it properly
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i am not proposing it as 'boostrap for pc', but as ~replacement~ for pc.
asciilifeform: ( if this counts as a useful attack, why not answer instead 'coupla gram of thermite' ? )
a111: Logged on 2017-02-24 02:36 asciilifeform: veen: let's try a historical angle. according to legend, emperor qin shi huangdi (same d00d as known for taking the 'immortality pill' and promptly croaking) had a palace with 1,500 rooms. and would not tell anyone in advance which one he plans to sleep in on a given night. and which ones he would put cutthroats in, ready to kill anyone who opens door. think 'minesweeper.'
asciilifeform: it goes into the iron, you dun need to bootstrap it as such, beyond applying mains current
asciilifeform: it aint even as if no one ever built sane iron, and it is being proposed for 1st time
asciilifeform: OriansJ: imho the place for it ( just as for e.g. bignums, arrays, other basics ) is in the iron
asciilifeform: and yes, 'branch delay slot' is retarded. as is the whole pipeline concept. ( why ? cuz http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 . sane iron FIRST, and ~then~ can ~maybe~ think about speed. )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:38 OriansJ: As for the operating system floor; there is a micro-posix subset that might be of interest as it would be enough for bootstrapping full operating systems but not complex enough to have anything non-deterministic.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:02 OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly ☝︎☟︎
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: WU is not. Normal bank wires work. WU is offered as an option because it works for people inside the wire sending to LATAM. Unsure how smooth WU UK would be.
OriansJ: Mocky: Don't get stuck on the idea of Floating point, it is just an example of classes of instructions that are complex to implement in hardware that a proper illegal instruction trap will allow us to move between hardware and software with no one else having to care what we are doing. As we want people programming to standards not to systems. ☟︎
Mocky: and in addition you suggested floating point as software addon. turing completeness can now be achieved after the fact! ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:02 OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap.
OriansJ: electrically seperating them and simply require an Interlock delay when registers are updated between units) as that is the closest approximation of the 88.5 registers that is optimal
OriansJ: one minor note; there is a common pattern with structs to load (base + offset) followed by arithmetic/logic with another register and generally writing out to another (base + offset). So it is tempting to put in instructions to do those; but as the VAX has shown, it isn't worth the additional complexity.
OriansJ: As for the operating system floor; there is a micro-posix subset that might be of interest as it would be enough for bootstrapping full operating systems but not complex enough to have anything non-deterministic. ☟︎
OriansJ: hence why I assumed a hardware mechanism for loading paper tape into memory and setting all registers to zero and then boot; as it eliminates the bootloader and the operating system entirely from the question.
OriansJ: actually I am extremely familiar with ARMv7's instruction encodings as I have been porting M2-Planet to it recently (boy it is a shitshow)
OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap. ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: 1) Did you mean in regards to minimal hardware requirements or the set which would make it a host platform worth using after the bootstrap is done and 2) Generally a higher level language such as Ada or C.
OriansJ: BingoBoingo: well I guess we need to discuss short term vs long term expectations as those pieces seem to be multiple pieces pulling in different directions ☟︎
bvt: of course, ada/gnat is too complex for bootstrapping as-is, but i guess equivalent safety properties would be still required
deedbot: BDA9B87D4B1F46D4D5616035212E02A02E1A8FB7 registered as OriansJ.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hope you get well soon! and no, don't get to delirium (or even serious shivers as that's likely to come first anyway)
mp_en_viaje: wings are a quaint artefact of the propeller era ; as commercial airliner no longer actually uses propellers, there's no objective reason to stick to the wing design.
mp_en_viaje: the cost to make point c 500 or so km as opposed to the current 10 isn't THAT significant, considering the air is rather thin past the first 5-6km anyway. yes it's expensive to defeat gravity, but not AS expensive, because it scales with square of distance anyway, by the time you've done 10 out of 500 you've done such a large chunk of the work already...
mp_en_viaje: "and when he fell down without glamour or grace but a cry of 'attack!' frozen into his face all of Earth could not find slabs of marble so tall as to carve him as high as he stood in his fall!"