log☇︎
412500+ entries in 0.265s
ben_vulpes: myeah, i can see that. how would it have handled modern nixy proggies?
asciilifeform: using c on lispm did not win you anything in any other case. it is rather like starting a campfire on the floor of your kitchen
asciilifeform: it was more of a thing one might want to do if really need to use a page from 'numerical recipes in c' verbatim in a hurry, etc.
asciilifeform: afaik there were not many cases of c proggies being used in practice on lispm
asciilifeform: the trick is that it wasn't c-on-cmachine
ben_vulpes wonders at the notion of runtime debuggability of c-through-lisp
asciilifeform: and use the runtime debuggability and repairability (yes)
ben_vulpes: as well*, right? many other languages too.
ben_vulpes: and the symbolics machines could run c as we
asciilifeform: recall, this was still the tail end of the era where software was just this thing that came with hardware
asciilifeform: as he doesn't have the hardware
asciilifeform: ^ not that it would have done a 'freeloader' much good
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'this is the source, no you may not show it to folks who have not bought'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they were ordinary for the time
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how tyrannical /were/ the Symbolics licenses?
asciilifeform: there were also experiments in imprisoning them together in specially-designated zones where they would be permitted to rapidly kill off one another.
asciilifeform: (the most notable successes, iirc, were when they hogtied 'blatnoi' leaders and methodically shipped them to distant camps where they would be lowered into pederasty immediately, with all necessary force)
asciilifeform: trinque: btw it was not clear to the folks who ran the camps, that this naturally-occurring system of hierarchy was a net plus re: net tonnage from the mines. hence the 'vory/suka wars' mircea_popescu referenced, a famous case where su authorities tried to monkey with the 'org chart' ☟︎
trinque: sure but that'd be maybe a degenerate case of the thing
asciilifeform: any more than a tumour.
asciilifeform: it is not clear to me that the fella sitting in ru prison barrack who does not a lick of work, other than organizing circle of thugs to squeeze 2x the normative quota from the poor schmucks, serves a purpose
trinque: like a social supernode which organizes the activity of other nodes
trinque: and wouldn't a human leader also be said to have a biological function?
trinque: perhaps it's a question like "why doesn't the queen bee have to haul all this pollen?"
asciilifeform: if, as mircea_popescu appears to suggest, chingis khan is the 'luxury model' of human, and everybody else is 'man lite version', why does the khan have to enslave engineers ?
asciilifeform: (and today from 'isis', though it is difficult from where i stand to get anything like an honest picture of the latter)
asciilifeform: similar cases were heard of during the chechen wars
asciilifeform: there was an interesting piece in some rag or other, a few weeks ago (?) re: mexican mafia stealing and enslaving white engineers to build their infrastructure
asciilifeform: or thermonuke? or even create so much as a bulldozer ?
asciilifeform: whatever else 'vory' might do, notice how they don't ever appear to build orbital launchers ?
asciilifeform: (orlov is somewhat fixated on them as 'ideal')
asciilifeform: the product of this recipe is afghanistan and the pashtuns
asciilifeform: i mean, i get it, mircea_popescu is with limonov in respecting the anonymous but honorable 'blatnoi' scum over korolev, who created modern rocketry while - yes - a slave
mircea_popescu: yet, to stay in the same anecdotal universe, whatever the шарашка proves about the fundamental worthlessness of "intellectuals", the vory/suka dispute prove that man is still not chimp.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, horse medicine works to some degree on some people.
mircea_popescu: it works great to distinguish chimpalikes aka ciumpalaci.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, go, write "a lisp such that any other man would see the wisdom in it and b e able to use it to whatever purpoise without bothering to learn it, or even read his own code"
asciilifeform: the invention of 'шарашка' demonstrates that the chimp trick works great on man.
mircea_popescu: except in places (like shown by this experiment) where he does.
asciilifeform: pan troglodytes doesn't seem to differ much from human schoolboy re: organization
mircea_popescu: for all you know he picked from the wrong chimp country.
mircea_popescu: so no : i am not rawl's "any other man" and so very much less am i some derp's three dozen chimps.
mircea_popescu: and it is not about "the effects". it is abour social organisation, which is supposed to be a culturally normated activity.
asciilifeform: it is about effects of hunger, among other things. which affects pretty much all mammals similarly, no ?
asciilifeform: but if the experiment is about, say, effects of strontium-90
mircea_popescu: how do you figure chimps are representative ? why not go ask the ruminants of the fucking plains.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can conduct an experiment where i get together six poor africans, who then proceed to get drunk and be stupid, and say "lo! this is man" and you'll say "gtfo these niggers out of hewre, they're unrepresentative".
asciilifeform: how many ~are~ there now.
asciilifeform: that is to say, some mechanism whereby 'atlas' may 'shrug' without killing himself necessarily.
assbot: Logged on 19-08-2015 00:18:24; asciilifeform: cabbie: 'this ford is a piece of shit. stalled again.' mircea_popescu: 'i have a solution!' cabbie: 'oh???111' mircea_popescu: 'here, have this broomstick.' cabbie: 'how do i drive customers on that, feed my family' mircea_popescu: 'you misunderstand, my good man. you stuff it in your arse.' cabbie: 'and... how does this feed by family?' mircea_popescu: 'no, you sit there with it in.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and, preferably, something that doesn't make me think of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-08-2015#1243116 ☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nonsense ? be so kind as to demonstrate gedankenexperiment ?
phf: oh, that's fair
asciilifeform: who wouldn't wanna join that.
phf: i have a very romantic view of guilds then, more like b-a, less then hacker news, but then i grew up on romantic literature
asciilifeform: phf: the modern-day successor of that is the unspoken gentleman's agreement among programmers to churn out mountains of shit that has to be 'maintained' at tremendous expense forever
phf: i thought esotericism and knowledge guilds is how it was done until quite recently?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: caveat: do you recall the experiment with the beaten chimpanzee ?
mircea_popescu: soon enough, who he thinks shall have, and he only.
mircea_popescu: that thing is going away, rapidly.
mircea_popescu: historically various accidental constraints made the construction of one's ideas vulnerable, and he ended up sharing some part with the mob
mircea_popescu: and so everythiong the common man has must be taken from him, right now.
mircea_popescu: for everything the common man "has" is a) not his good property and b) acquired by him through some osrt of redistribution or other
asciilifeform: today, the apes are nesting in man's burned-out skyscrapers, approximately.
asciilifeform: just like we do not yet know how to make mass spectrometer cheap
asciilifeform: the chemistry was not there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: appreciate, there was no way to make lispmachine cheap in 1978
mircea_popescu: ape may steal from man ; but man can not steal from ape. everything man takes from ape is glory.
mircea_popescu: it's not theft, it's god's own repossession.
mircea_popescu: or for making it impossible for the lot to exert any further control.
mircea_popescu: can't blame a man for "stealing" from this lot,
mircea_popescu: "bitcoin started with unnamed guy, then essentially vanished. except contemporary idiots using "blockchain technologies""
asciilifeform: like the visigoths broke apart roman mosaics
asciilifeform: except that modern-day idiots use the broken-off pieces of it in everything.
asciilifeform: the lisp thing (goes far beyond a style of programming language, but concepts like dynamic type and garbage collection and a number of other concepts) started at stanford under mccarthy himself, then mit 'project mac' (nothing to do with apple), then mit ai lab and 'lispmachine'
mircea_popescu: well so from whiom then
asciilifeform: didn't say that it skipped.
mircea_popescu: greatness doens't get to skip a generation./ ☟︎
asciilifeform: but he did not take it from idiots. he took it from smart folks
mircea_popescu: (/me is still unpersuaded anyone involved in lisp to date isn't an idiot)
mircea_popescu: this is actually a perfectly legitimate reason to take things from idiots
asciilifeform: but if i had to hazard a guess, it is because 1) it was great 2) not his
asciilifeform: go stand on top of a basketball, to experience this.
assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 17:33:16; ben_vulpes: when i go full scammatronics vc bezzle the office campus will be navigated with 'solowheel' 'orbits'
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255554 << from what i've been told, the common problem of all 'handlebar-less segway' machines is the muscle strain from the constant effort involved in not falling off the thing while tilting it to steer ☝︎
asciilifeform: trinque: sense of humour, but vga was hardly even a thing yet (certainly in the east)
trinque: lol, I'd assumed the book was published somewhere with a sense of humor
asciilifeform admits that he had to actually pull the thing off the shelf and check !
asciilifeform: ^ not in the book. a very clean photochop gag, aha
phf: <mircea_popescu> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255201 << is that soft pr0n on his monitor ? << yes, i didn't actually notice until i posted, probably a 2ch gag ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 21:17:14; ascii_field: wolfram is sui generis. owns a tame publisher, for instance
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2015#1094237 << another thread re: same. ☝︎
asciilifeform: wolfram tried to steal an entire ~discipline~ - as described in http://bactra.org/reviews/wolfram and elsewhere
asciilifeform: (idiot plagiarists plagiarize text; clever ones - concepts; great ones - whole systems, disciplines)
asciilifeform: gotta understand that wolfram is a great (in the sense of edison) plagiarist
asciilifeform: he hated it so much that when he understood that there is no escape from it if you want a sane and fully expressive programming system, he gave it a thick spraypaint coat to hide it
asciilifeform: phf: aha. this is discussed in the logs
assbot: Loper OS » Thumbs Down for Clojure ... ( http://bit.ly/1N27D3p )
asciilifeform: (for folks who never suffered the misfortune of getting involved with ipNohe - if you want your proggy to have a ui, and actually execute, much less get past the censors - you have to write at least a large chunk of it in next^H^H^Hcrapple's abortion of a c-with-classes)
asciilifeform: you're stuck with the imposed retardation