31500+ entries in 0.776s
mats: i was thinking the americans in #
t should pool an emergency airlift fund
☟︎ mircea_popescu: there are teams with better history, because linux or whatever. i wouldn'
t however bet on the theory there are better teams altogether. and no, "secret meta-nsa" doesn'
t get to dent this discussion. because clinton lost.
mircea_popescu: well yes, the advantage being you don'
t have to know aforehand what you intend to use
mod6: i agree, but it tends to happen. that still doesn'
t take away that my rating is ~not~ a guarantee of anything.
mircea_popescu: if you stop showing up, and some other dude for some reason ends up with your nick, such as through asking freenode for it say, he won'
t be able to voice himself - which encourages him to get a "fresh" nick.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576727 << no, actually it isn'
t. the signed V element is actually a deed ; it gets maintained by an alternative mechanism than the deeds because we're still working with all this shit and trying to figure it out. but fundamentally, it is a deed not a rating.
☝︎ mircea_popescu: and of course there's the case of pirate, which hanbot actually analysed at length on the forum years ago, in retort to some idiot going "o see, the wot doesn'
t work, pirate had high rating"
mod6: it's even happened to me. i rated a guy with positive rating, he didn'
t scam me at all. but he apparently scammed some other people.
mircea_popescu: and ironically i can give a negative evaluation in spite of my positive rating - other lady friend asks me about having kids with the guy - i'll tell her about daugther ; and if the daughter's not a total futz, if her drinking friend asks about dad he'll get a + notwithstanding he's an asshole. or maybe won'
t, depending on how much of an asshole he is generally. but there's the ambiguity.
mircea_popescu: the wot isn'
t a computable graph. i mean it's drawable, obviously, and the drawing's not futile, but just because the machine can draw it dun mean the machine grasps it.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents" << while reading, this is what I was thinking too. We've seen many times where someone reputable has a positive rating for X, and then later X scams out. These ratings can'
t act as a guarantee; which would place the rater in some leg
mircea_popescu: you will have to have ~a~ key online as a matter of course for the client to connect ; but it doesn'
t have to be THE key in any sense.
jurov: O.o mpex isn'
t dead?
scriba: n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 7 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 8 a b c d e f g h i j k l
scriba: Logged on 2016-12-03: [01:54:50] <phf> ACTION 0 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 2 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
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t u v w x y z 5 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 6 a b c d e f g h i j k l m
phf 0 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 2 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 3 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 4 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 5 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
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t u v w x y z 7 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s
t u v w x y z 8 a b c d e f g h i j k l
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:05 trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn'
t just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
mircea_popescu: o look phf, i can'
t link to the story of turbulent flow BECAUSE ITS NOT IN YOUR LOGS!11
mircea_popescu: the problem of interpreting structures of meaning without survivors is not trivial. which is why i said inept historian - the monumental tasks more often attract the idiots who don'
t comprehend scale than actually talented people who can take bites of reality the size of the moon.
hanbot: mircea_popescu depends on what exactly you mean by "read". it's not the case that i can'
t extract any value from them. it's certainly the case i wouldn'
t wager i wholly comprehend. and whatever's in between i'm not sure i'd call "meaningless"
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576558 << well as it turns out, ratings are a lot closer to sexual intercourse than previously realised ; but in any sense what i meant was the point of reference (ie, i will fuck this curvaceous lady as the body presents itself and do business with fa9fblabla, which are the two presentations of the supposed same but otherwise uncapturable spirit). i didn'
t mean business BY the keys when i s
☝︎ mircea_popescu: i don'
t have a very strong opinion on the signing of payment orders. i suppose it's a tradeoff of convenience vs corectness.
mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can'
t have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: whether he did or didn'
t or did a bum job of it or anything isn'
t even at issue - the oppositive quality of facts distingushes them from mere meaning just like the thumb stands out on the hand.
mircea_popescu: "you owe me 5 guilders" "this writ says i don'
t". "i never meant for my daughter to be chained to the post naked for all comers" "then why does this offer her ?" etc.
mircea_popescu: and there's a damned good reason you don'
t, nor is it a service you offer : the difficulty of "looking at the data, establish its validity" exceeds building the ai.
mircea_popescu: if you construct the signing infrastructure, there's a river with a railway bridge. however, segments may be missing ; and this can'
t be known.
mircea_popescu: trinque the problem here is like so : if you don'
t sign the stuff, you have a river, which will have to be forded. people wanting to get across know what they're doing - fording a river.
trinque: doesn'
t mean A is still in effect
trinque: maybe you signed contract A at one point, then signed B which brought about termination of A, and I don'
t have B
mircea_popescu: trinque i don'
t think you did, but we ended up with a whole front here and since we're discussing it let's discuss altogether.
mircea_popescu: to A i shall say "and he doesn'
t snore" and to B i shall say "he's a patient sort"
mircea_popescu: trinque facts don'
t encode anything. that's what it's like to be a fact - you may only be interpreted, but exist outside and above any meaning.
trinque: this model is also applicable using OTP, I'm aware, but while it proves something to *me*, it doesn'
t prove it to anyone else.
mircea_popescu: a rating you mean ? but a rating isn'
t an opinion, it's an advertisement. much like an offer in a magazine is a tender not a deal.
mircea_popescu: this theoretical problem is evinced in practice by the expiration problem - what do you do about all the ratings i may have signed ? so you have rating for x at time
t, what's this say ? is it correct or isn'
t it correct ?
mircea_popescu: not that it's bad for kids, though it does promote some tilt towards the tomboyish look in girls that i don'
t find welcome.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576455 << running the "oh, that wasn'
t a wedding, who goes out in the desert to have weddings (outside of weirdo californians) and there was no leftover food or musical instruments or anything)" side by side with the AP footage showing all the lively colored bedding and pots and pans and various bits of goatfucker musical instruments is quite the COIN exercise.
☝︎ danielpbarron: re preserving log: we don'
t sign each line we send. but feel free to sign the whole thing
phf: well, speaking of history audit trail does introduce explicit history where there wasn'
t any
trinque: and then yes, can'
t talk to a deadman in either case.
phf: asciilifeform: ok, my point was that i don'
t see how that's a more fundamental than "no rating outside of rater"
phf: i don'
t know if we disagree there, but i don'
t see how that makes a difference
phf: well, if that's a common understanding, then i don'
t understand mp's what is wot article
trinque: if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn'
t mean I love her
phf: yes, but i understand you, and you don'
t understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101
phf: trinque: because ratings doesn'
t have meaning at all outside of rater
phf: trinque: he doesn'
t want an audit trail of ratings.
danielpbarron: ok. so then let eulora dump and sign its ratings periodically. i don'
t see why you shouldn'
t trust it to give you the correct data
danielpbarron: it was my understanding that we specifically don'
t want such an audit trail
phf: you don'
t want to even hear the opposing side so resort to constructing strawmen
danielpbarron: i think it's even dangerous to use sigs to preserve things in stone like that. shouldn'
t be more than a tool to ensure we're talking about the same text. tge signed material doesn'
t enforce itself. otherwise we're off into smart contract territory
danielpbarron: my argument isn'
t "not needed" ; it's that it's dangerous
trinque: that isn'
t a statement with content
trinque: I didn'
t hear a position other than "not needed"
trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn'
t just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
☟︎ trinque: this fucking "don'
t need" argument is why people md5,
https, whatever
trinque: "don'
t need" is the sort of squishy lazy compromise that'd better have a reason
phf: what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don'
t need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point
danielpbarron: i don'
t see the benefit in signing the rating string; if it gets mitm'd it won'
t match on the bot's end and the user will clearly see something is amiss
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don'
t want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
phf: trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don'
t cry about things
phf: "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won'
t even start, so what are you working on?"
mircea_popescu: i can'
t say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo
mircea_popescu: myeah. essentially california didn'
t start sucking now, or last year, or last decade. intellectually speaking it was always nothing. it sucked in 1990 like it sucked in 1960 and 1930.
mircea_popescu: "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don'
t do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.
phf: i might've seen that, but i don'
t think i saw it until after i moved to u.s.
phf: i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don'
t use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"
phf: i heard about amiga prods, but at least in moscows i didn'
t know anyone who had it
mircea_popescu: back when /me still had a lot of faith in humanity, /me still didn'
t give a rat's ass about the us.
mircea_popescu: Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don'
t know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. It is a real danger to democracy."
mircea_popescu: worse situation than sf. what exactly wasn'
t exported ?
mircea_popescu: and the chinese can'
t afford to get married because bitch wants place to spawn and place to spawn within icbm distance of anything worth one's time cost 1mn+ ie five lifetimes.
mircea_popescu: stupid naturally herds together, and to very much the same degree. there isn'
t anything you can do about it, and ftr the shepherd FOLLOWS the herd, doesn'
t lead it. he may imagine he leads it, if it makes him feel better about living in the middle of nowhere among a pile of animal dung, but whatevers.