log☇︎
30700+ entries in 0.224s
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem , if one want to call it one, is that the standard explicitly gives a knob for getting cmdline params, and that knob demands indeterminately-long strings (i.e. built on dualstackism) to work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's exactly what i did.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:09 asciilifeform: phf: observe however that it is impossible to make use of your approach re cmdline args. the standard unambiguously mandates variably-lenghted strings ( i.e. dualstackism ) for that.
mircea_popescu: lol i see the log approves.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:06 phf: i took a different approach, i wrote _to ada standard_ with the idea that each interface can be substituted with a custom system specific replacement. for example my character_io is a new_line aware replacement of the original, that relies on ada.sequential_io. now if i wanted to retarget to small machine, i'd write a custom sequential_io that uses machine specific calls for byte read/write
Mocky: BingoBoingo, I've just read through your real estate posts, what was your best source of info re: rentals, was it agencies?
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was speaking of basic semantics, rather than i/o and storage ( consider , good chunk of the reason ada wins is that it not merely enforces constraints, but forces operator to think and plan, rather than http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -shit into his pants ) ☝︎
asciilifeform: i/o in particular is intimately machine-specific and cannot be 'language-standardized' unless you're perma-marrying unix or the like.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:46 phf: or is tmsr ada whatever ave1 put into his musl build, which is, worse, a political situation. diana_coman can argue for her ffi stuff to be included, should i be arguing for my get/put stuff to be included?
asciilifeform: for thread completeness i must add that there are items in the standard (i.e. 'tasks') that i do not use in ffa, but intend to make use of in future ( i.e. trbi ) , and may be let live.
asciilifeform: to date i've rejected all items requiring secondarystackism; that's currently it.
mircea_popescu: (i meant especially re the "Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions)" art.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:16 asciilifeform: ave1: that'll be the gold medalist, as it will run on ice40 , i.e. 'tmsr cpu'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've little doubt that he's right; hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835943 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: because i fear he's right.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 13:41 phf: asciilifeform: oh yeah, i get it, the approach requires a GOST cpu with a GOST bus etc. etc. right now the situation is mildly depressing (though perhaps that's not the right word), even Ada standard turned out to be dodgy (very precisely specifies some shitty solutions)
mircea_popescu: "real activity". what i mean is that activities can be classified in resistence-of-medium types, when one interacts with objects, and catcalls types, where one interacts with people. just like stock trader would immensely benefit from taking time to do some whittling, just so alma de casa would immensely benefit from taking some time to do paid escort work.
ben_vulpes: i entirely agree.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835852 << this seems rather a poisoned advantage, much in the vein of the "order in clown's mouth" easement. yes, i suppose not getting out of your car is in some senses "easier", but not something i'd use. ☝︎
ben_vulpes: anyways early results are coffee made for instead of by me, exercise taken under own steam, complete cessation of wandering into room and forgetting original cause ("i've tried to brush my teeth six times today"), and general lifting of tenor around the domus. much habit-building to do now.
mircea_popescu: as close to perfect as i've to date found.
Mocky: i have a nephew who tried to get me to cr last summer and I agreed, but then he backed out. he was raving about the place
Mocky: BingoBoingo, yeah I've been thinking. Spent better half of last year travelling southern usa and mostly finding places I would *not* want to live until landing in Austin, which I quite liked. But then later snapped back to east coast. I've developed a pretty good sense of my (pretty minimal) quality of life needs recently.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i can see how beatings could kick the brain into a new regime
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: last i knew, ketamine was usg.dod state of art
ben_vulpes: the gist i get is that there's several physical regions that see high bloodflow when the mind is in an idle state that are correlated with "ruminantive"/"obsessive" thinking that are grouped by experts as "the default mode network"
mircea_popescu: i had the wrong unicode page selected.
ben_vulpes: not to derail, but i've learned quite a bit about what neurofolk call the "default mode network" over the past two weeks
phf: mircea_popescu: oh oh i get the point
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << i'd not distribute anything but trb patches to allcomers ~already~; if i made a useful thing i'd trivially share the source for it with l1 and rely on y'alls judgement as to whom to further share it with but i wouldn't concern myself with preventing leaks-to-kloinkers. beyond that, i share certain specific source with a subset of my own l1 and no further, with a ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:55 phf: well lispworks has capi, that doesn't have an non-proprietary equivalent, so if your work requires any kind of gui, you're stuck with some very dodgy solutions (in the early days i even used emacs/slime as a gui backed by ccl)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: need at least 20M long antenna, and at least 1M away from ground, and made of something reasonably conductive and not friable (i.e. not meat)
mircea_popescu: phf i was talking about the "collected people who use lisp" as a roomful there. and i very much doubt you can't reproduce anything you effectually use. of course, couldn't vs wouldn't distinction.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835844 << this immediately sent me thinking about http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/cultura-vizualas.jpg which in turn led me to the coco chanel discussion. i expect the designer of the future comes up with a way to include antena in clothing, have whole thing powered by puttplug/anal hook. ☝︎
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1836056 << i also don't have means of reproducing the majority of physical objects i use, including the machine my tools run on. i have to ask is that a hypothetical roomfull or we're talking #trilema specifically? ☝︎
BingoBoingo: I mean in a couple months he will have a majority on the Supreme Court. Through at least January all he has to do is abide, keep baiting, and let the pantsuits keep exhausting themselves with runs into insanity
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:46 phf: are you talking in the context of tmsr, or your commercial work? i had both of them bought at some point, back in my common lisp consulting days it was a no brainer, the cost was always a small fraction of the contract, but the technical advantage immense. but then i don't have the source code for many things that i make my food with
BingoBoingo: I can't wait for the congress critter that start getting prosecuted as British and German agents by the Trumpreich
mircea_popescu: i so look forward to this.
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... of course, bimbos interchangeable, that's the point of the repeater high heels.
asciilifeform: 'where have you flown, chukcha?' 'every night i eat mushroom and fly to upper tundra'
mircea_popescu: anyway. sorta thing used to be a lot more of a problem back in ye olde days before democracy (ie, fifty or so years ago). "what do you mean in spite of all this equipment wasted on my stupid ass i still aren't all that cool ?!" used to be the jew boy lament.
asciilifeform: so , lacking evidence to the contrary, i suspect that the man is ( like asciilifeform ) a pauper.
mircea_popescu: oh, i know.
mircea_popescu: yes, i'm aware, we're all alive, and that means periodically we evacuate. faecal matter, of all things. now tell me again why there's shit in the soup ?!
phf: which is exactly that. the reason why i'm failing to see the point of this line of conversation, is because their latter is universal, that's the pond they were born into and that's how they live. you can pick up literally any aspect of their lives and find a way in which it's not like "mp and mocky" interaction above
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835956 << i suspect that logic of poverty was at work (i.e. 'if we can't gross 500k , by whatever means, the landlord will take back the office and the programmers will go home' ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:57 mircea_popescu: well, there's ways to try and fail, and there's ways to not even try at all (and still fail, of course). it seems to me (and maybe i misunderstand) that their efforts are of the latter.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 14:39 phf: it's highly likely that their model though is fundamentally contrary to what is being considered, because it's also fundamentally contrary to what pretty much every american artisan does: when you find a rich account, you milk them for all they worth, while giving your work out to poor ones because "building business". in this case franz's failure is systematic, there's nothing else to say. but i believe that given the overall failure they never the le
phf: perhaps loaning worked with lisp machines (i know APL machines could be loaned), could loan one, eventually you return it
mircea_popescu: (i know from experience, btw. i am probably the one here who has physically punished most ic. and yes i do mean with wooden sticks. and axes and machetes and so on.)
mircea_popescu: and this sort of sheer lunacy of misexpression, coupled with shocking, indefensible idiocies like ~a magic number~ (really, how the fuck was it obtained, anything OTHER than the usual http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-07#1563435 prolonged into adulthood by that all-powerful pill of neoteny, "hurr durr i am an engineer, aka professional, aka no more pressure to mature" ?) is exactly what composes the metaphorical baseball bat i s ☝︎
mircea_popescu: phf specifically, i do not believe "they know that usually they can't get it upfront, because nobody expects to pay for software" is at all related. rather, "they know it makes no sense to get before-the-shipping money". because think in terms of those who invented commerce, to wit http://trilema.com/2014/the-most-serene-republic-and-its-laws/#selection-69.178-69.401 : what the fuck sense does it make for he to pay you ~befor
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-07-17 00:02:23: <mircea_popescu> i can't believe income tax for 100k a year is <20%.
asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-17.log.html#t00:02:23 << can be 40 - 50% if you're cursed correctly ( i.e. no mortgagism to subtract, no low-taxable 'investment' incomes, etc, just labour )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 15:10 mircea_popescu: suppose instead of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-16.log.html#t15:27:14 i "sat down" with mocky to see "how can he pay me 100 bitcoin through other means", because "nobody expects to pay for management". something like that ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835984 << hah, interesting, i had nfi that Mocky was a grandfather ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 15:04 phf: but for all i know they have a traditional american sales approach, where you ask them for license, and they size you up as to how much they can get out of you, and there's pure winging it. i'm missing the "baseball in hands" part though, that's an indicator one way or another.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835982 << at one time , on usg throne, i was on receiving end of this treatment, wolfram co flew in emissaries to pitch their various bells an' whistles and 'see how much they can get' ☝︎
mircea_popescu: suppose instead of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-07-16.log.html#t15:27:14 i "sat down" with mocky to see "how can he pay me 100 bitcoin through other means", because "nobody expects to pay for management". something like that ?! ☟︎
phf: but for all i know they have a traditional american sales approach, where you ask them for license, and they size you up as to how much they can get out of you, and there's pure winging it. i'm missing the "baseball in hands" part though, that's an indicator one way or another. ☟︎
phf: you can request and get an explicit price list, with some sort of all comer common options that worked in the past. all of this is hearsay though, because i wasn't the one talking to them when the license was acquired (i was doing mere programming work)
diana_coman: I think it was mentioned at other times too but I don't quite recall something else focusing on this or fleshing it out more
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835741 -> in 2 parts that I know of: http://trilema.com/2013/statements-regarding-the-mmorpg-under-development-i-v/#selection-41.646-41.733 and http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/#selection-55.5-55.194 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: well, there's ways to try and fail, and there's ways to not even try at all (and still fail, of course). it seems to me (and maybe i misunderstand) that their efforts are of the latter. ☟︎
phf: i don't understand how that's the conclusion, i don't see how if it's done badly (which is not quite clear from even what i know, certainly not from log hearsay) it means that it wasn't done at all
mircea_popescu: in any case, the "fatted calf" that the inept father cut was fucking stolen, and if i sat in judgement over the matter he'd sure as dingleberries hang for it.
phf: it's highly likely that their model though is fundamentally contrary to what is being considered, because it's also fundamentally contrary to what pretty much every american artisan does: when you find a rich account, you milk them for all they worth, while giving your work out to poor ones because "building business". in this case franz's failure is systematic, there's nothing else to say. but i believe that given the overall failure they never the le ☟︎
phf: vaguely, but i don't know how their real model maps into the failure model we're considering
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 12:32 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835696 << i believe at least in the case of allegro the ownership is the dks/symbolics model (or perhaps soekris model), guy who made it sells it and there's enough sales money to periodically fund developers, add new features, etc (considering that some of the contracts are finance and gov)
ave1: I've played little with the bb-runtimes but the whole build process is based python + gprbuild and needs at least ada 2017 sources.
phf: asciilifeform: yes, they do, i did some research into subj and it's literally java on winblows
ave1: btw I understood that esa still uses Leon processors with ADA
asciilifeform: ave1: that'll be the gold medalist, as it will run on ice40 , i.e. 'tmsr cpu'. ☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: for all i know, ~today's~ spaceprobes fly with java on winblowz. i am speaking of the 'golden age' 1980s-1990s items.
phf: i suspect spaceprobes people don't ever need to start a fresh program either, in a conventional sense
asciilifeform: can't seem to find this discussion in the logs, so i'll summarize , for noobs :
asciilifeform: btw did i ever discuss why i forbid the secondary stack ? ☟︎
ave1: the same with interfaces.c, a version without secondary stack can be easily made (I have one already, simple method of cutting out functions), but is then not really ada standard anymore.
asciilifeform: phf: so i explicitly rejected the standard's routine.
asciilifeform: phf: observe however that it is impossible to make use of your approach re cmdline args. the standard unambiguously mandates variably-lenghted strings ( i.e. dualstackism ) for that. ☟︎
ave1: for overview there will probably will be about 6 flavours of zfp I think based on: MUSL C, X86_64 ASM + linux, X86_64 ASM + no os, AARCH64 + linux, AARCH64 + no os.
asciilifeform: assumed that i would have to do it with own hands.
asciilifeform: phf: when i started out, i had no notion that anyone would help me by producing a working libc-less gnat.
asciilifeform: phf: it will require moar massage to actually produce a compact binary, and so i did not go with it; but it is still prolly The Right Thing long-term
asciilifeform: phf: i can't say this is a wrong approach
phf: i took a different approach, i wrote _to ada standard_ with the idea that each interface can be substituted with a custom system specific replacement. for example my character_io is a new_line aware replacement of the original, that relies on ada.sequential_io. now if i wanted to retarget to small machine, i'd write a custom sequential_io that uses machine specific calls for byte read/write ☟︎
ave1: yes the other thing is to get the os out and I'm reading your code
ave1: phf, asciilifeform's ffacalc uses only a few C functions all for IO / exit and command line arguments. I just have to provide the right functions in the ZFP library for ffacalc (currently first on conveyor but also some real life priorities these weeks)
asciilifeform: phf: iirc i used cism for put/get on stdio, and for cmdline.
phf: i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't (my memory of logs are hazy on that point, perhaps ave1 mentioned that he's working on getting ffa_calc working), because i believe you're also using interfaces.c at least to declare the types that you get in/out of c system calls
asciilifeform: phf: first it must work with asciilifeform's item . and only then i can dare to speak of 'enuff for erryone!'.
phf: asciilifeform: i thought that you were arguing that the subset of ada runtime that's included in zfp "ought to be enough for everyone", since at the moment i believe it compiles ffa, my apologies.
asciilifeform: phf: adacore actually distributes a compiler like this. but it is commercialware, and i've never seen it.
asciilifeform: but given as i do not expect most nontrivial c proggies to build with it, i suspect that the 2 compilers will remain in use in parallel for a while.
asciilifeform: admittedly i haven't tested the avant guard ave1 item yet.
asciilifeform: i posted a simple example of this kind of thing, earlier, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832319 ☝︎
asciilifeform: when folx must write with no libc, i.e. bios work, they make own and include with the coad.