log☇︎
30500+ entries in 0.668s
mircea_popescu: according to similar legend, there was once a bee dog who saw a glass bottle. because it wasn't red it therefore was grey and because it wasn't fleecy it therefopre was toothy and so the bee dog ran to town and warned everyone of the wolf.
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform doesn't even sit in trb-foundation!
mircea_popescu: i don't see this impossibility you discuss.
mircea_popescu: and while he's incapacitated, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587343 << to briefly revisit the whole "greeks were actually smarter than you" thread : naive set theory (as expoused by, say, frege) runs into a problem known as russel's paradox : should the set of sets that don't include themselves include itself ? ☝︎
mircea_popescu: except woe, you can't make it because someone already made a patch for this block and you aren't going to see another block without a patch.
mircea_popescu: (it is uniquely idiotic to clock v patches by bitcoin - because for eg what happens in 2115 when v is the basis of bitcoin and a bug occurs which makes blocks not happen anymore and has to be fixed by a vpatch which can't exist because no blocks.)
mircea_popescu: well, do we actually want this ? it doesn't seem to make sense ; in the sense that when you write the patch in question, you write it atop a specified code ; which is the result of a press ; which has a "last patch applied" necessarily. so that one should be the "antecedent" properly speaking.
mircea_popescu: they won't come out the same.
mircea_popescu: isn't ordering therein implicit ?
mircea_popescu: that it was supported by some implementation at some point doesn't actually provide it with cognitive content.
mircea_popescu: we can't "return to genesis".
mircea_popescu: but this is a->b->c->d(=b). the only reason d is confused with b is because we don't hash correctly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically want a cycle (n >1) where one element traces back to genesis. it seems to me that because one patch can only identify one antecedent, it is not possible to create cycles for the ~same reason organic chemistry doesn't work on hydrogen and oxygen only.
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, the genesis has an antecessor ?
asciilifeform: and you won't, if you copied my toposort.
mod6: im not sure if i follow. are you saying that genesis isn't a good place to test it because it is a root?
mircea_popescu: you're very kind, but the problem doesn't need that redefinition.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu or anybody else wants to try to 'square the circle' and make a v-prime algo that doesn't need ordering, i will helpfully show how it breaks.
mircea_popescu: (also that it's not currently implemented anywhere, but that's minor. the reason it's not implemented is that it doesn't, at least to my eyes, make much sense.)
asciilifeform: it would be a Bad Thing. if we were to do it. which we don't, because the antecedent hash gives us the context.
mircea_popescu: i don't actually see any of these. to start with, "hash everything" is exactly not what was done in the example. it hashed ~the text~, it did not hash ~the antecessor's hash~. this is the problem. that it doesn't hash everything, but just the text.
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear why the "hash whole thing, not just parts like fucking bitcoin blocks do" isn't a better solution. moves the clock externality to a strong hash externality
asciilifeform: thinking doesn't hurt.
asciilifeform: 'there is mud on my hands' 'faucet is right there, go wash' 'don't discuss solution, let's discuss problem!'
mircea_popescu: because a) conventionally cycle-closing patches aren't to be released and b) anyone involved in a closed cycle gets hung ?
asciilifeform: i contend that it isn't a problem, and that i solved it before releasing v.
mircea_popescu: in any case i don't want to discuss problems in a marriage with proposed solutions.
asciilifeform: it isn't though. it is mathematically bulletproof.
asciilifeform: then we know the T at which no cycles, and the T+1 at which cycle exists.
mircea_popescu: i'm not making a positive argument here, and haven't throughout. just trying to examine this thing.
asciilifeform: so my cyclic(T)==false, cyclic(T+1)==true, culprit is the signator(s) of the patch closing the loop, worx great, when this condition is adhered to
asciilifeform: otherwise he sits in hell playing cards with the other devils, where he belongs, and daren't stick out his nose.
mircea_popescu: see, basically the fear here is that we DON'T escape the "swelf aware monstrosity" no matter what we do ; we may merely choose whether its in the comments or "somewhere else" magically.
asciilifeform: at T+1 (after one patch) -- there is.
asciilifeform: say at time T there is no cycle.
mircea_popescu: yeah it does add quite a bit of unwanted complexity doesn't it.
mircea_popescu: specifically whether it shouldn't include a comment requirement as above.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there isn't a 'the patch'
mircea_popescu: yes. so what started all of this in my head, i been trying to lead like three times with "but the problem is :" - we may have a very bitcoin block-esque problem on our hands. specifically, the fact that the hash of a block doth not include the intended hash of its antecessor opens up to a problem we needn't be open to.
mircea_popescu: hm, actually, the hashes don't even check out. how was 702d... produced ?
mircea_popescu: what you can't do is go back in time and agree at the juncture you actually meant to ; but the important point here is :
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this can't press ; 846f (genesis) is not used subsequently ?
asciilifeform: if this weren't easily detectable, vtronics would be entirely impossible
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:49 mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
asciilifeform: i.e. your vtron doesn't see it in flow any more.
asciilifeform: but it wasn't pressing in this example
mod6: i think it should die. when its trying to press and it enounters something that doesn't match: death.
asciilifeform: mod6: it isn't 'missing', your vtron should simply disregard everything that hung below it
mod6: and furthermore, i guess it doesn't make any sense to continue on at all if something is missing in the flow, because even if you could side-step where the breakage is, the vpatch down stream would actually fail to press anyway because its input hash wouldn't match the expected.
phf: asciilifeform: mine removes some of the links where dependency is already demonstrated by other means. if you have a->b->c and a->c you can't press c without pressing b also
asciilifeform: if it can't-- zap.
mod6: if we look at my graph, that really wouldn't be true.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't really have mental capacity for this conversation right now, but mod6's graph is most likely correct, because all it does is links vpatches to vpatches by their shared hashes
mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present? ☟︎
mod6: phf's might correct, but his doesn't show all of the edges that mine does.
asciilifeform: (in case it isn't obvious, this was dangerous, and i did warn folks)
mod6: and yours doesn't check the output hash.
asciilifeform: google et al are not commercial orgs in the usual sense, and haven't been for years, they are religious institutions
mircea_popescu: (failure in resource allocation went from simple "tin women" to - google, or for that matter mit, can't figure out who to hire anymore.)
mircea_popescu: now then, leaving aside the offensive inferiority complex women/nonwhites have towards white males : the guy has a point (mit media lab, which apparently got new leadership, a little smarter - and a little less female - being where ethereum retardation is hatched). the jwz is by now radioactive, a bunch of kids who can't subdue a girl their age, let alone a herd of adult women, want things to be about how it's ok to go around
mircea_popescu: iction, generalized AI, we wouldn't have to worry about all the messy stuff like politics and society. They think machines will just figure it all out for us."
asciilifeform: ftr i found bitcoin to be a very interesting thing (after, like many other people, very narrowly failing to come up with it) but couldn't stand ~bitcoin enthusiasts~ at all, barfed immediately when saw tardstalk, and #bitcoin, and will also admit, early #b-a
mod6: i totally didn't log anything.
asciilifeform: fwiw i definitely wasn't fully 'tuned in' until after the mpex review thing
mircea_popescu: confirmed, there's a hole in my log for the 12th. asciilifeform apparently you didn't merely meander in, but managed to do it when i was off.
asciilifeform: nah it wouldn't be in that particular pile.
asciilifeform: i dug on my disk just now to try and recall when i ~tuned in~ and apparently it was much earlier, and i can't even recall why.
asciilifeform: (if a111 doesn't answer in $time) ☟︎
phf: pitty we didn't have it from the beginning. all those beautiful tumblr pictures lost forever
mircea_popescu: pity we didn't have the bot archival thing earlier huh.
phf: i feel like there was a neat article about the history of seals somewhere inthe logs, but i can't find it
mircea_popescu: (which is what all ~ALL~ standardization EVER does - makes it so you're really careful not to typo. it can't resolve problems of the other nature, just this.)
mircea_popescu: but ~making that list~ is entirely unmachineable ; and me being very careful not to typo doesn't help
mircea_popescu: this doesn't follow.
mircea_popescu: facts are opposable. intentions aren't a thing.
mircea_popescu: if patches are signed by dead people only, they don't belong in presses
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu's method , to be used in the battlefield, still needs some means of tying the keys together formally -- and something that doesn't reduce to the horror of gpg's 'subkeys'
mircea_popescu: you can literally come up with an idea for a thing while travelling ; go to internet cafe ; spin up gpg to make you a new key while you bash it down ; then sign the patch with that key which you don't even bother taking from there.
mircea_popescu: phf you don't have to post a snippet of code as ~vpatch~. can just pastebin it also
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 03:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he still has a point. a) we're careening dangerously towards -dev levels and b) people can't fucking follow wtf is on that list.
mircea_popescu: ah whatevs. dude what a fucking tabloid this nytimes is. no, us didn't "blacklist" anything.
mircea_popescu hasn't fucked that many indian womenz has not much clue as to their native barking system.
phf: i'm not here to ~defend~ common lisp, i made an analogy that didn't stick
phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
phf: asciilifeform: we had this thread, and i had an answer for you that you didn't like
mircea_popescu: yes, but they were idiots in another way : much like stalin's central planning committee (as implemented by the stuart court in london) can't beat the disorganised merchants of the low countries - just so five dorks with nary a clue can't compete with the combinatorial experimentation of the actual pigdin.
mircea_popescu: and your objection to "ukrainian" which is a lulz much like the "croatian" for instance doesn't come and isn't informed nor supported by "the poor quality of conventions employed". it's its lack of history that marks it, correctly, as nonsense.
mircea_popescu: language ~is a convention~, yes, but it is ~made from~ experience ; not consensus. people don't say "people" to denote people because ~they~ agreed to, but because people in the past ~have~.
mircea_popescu: eh, hiding behind that to salvage your pretense to engineering power is exactly how and why engineer kids are always the ones who don't see any cunt at slut parties.
mircea_popescu: the result was that 3rd generation girls reverted naturally to the coy behaviour, and the whole thing is today forgotten to the point you don't know about it
mircea_popescu: and engineered languages are exactly an island of dr moreau, a place that a) can't exist and b) whose only conceptual function is to show how fucking unbearably tedious old women are.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << reiser doesn't use inodes, but iirc also limited to (2^32)-1 ~files~ ☝︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588255 << eh, prepared queries next year. as it stands you can't even do a select properly. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: "i ended up with a woman in my bed i don't know." "how ?"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:38 ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588010 << i can't grok what the dispute is here. ☝︎
BingoBoingo: Don't forget the dirty Pascal panties!
mircea_popescu: barely-compiling c isn't good enough for us. oh, no, mommy i need my special asm skirt for THIS sql stuff!
ben_vulpes: it's a very special haskellian snowflake that makes it so i don't have to think about that so nyah
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh im sorry, and your sql is written in what, malbolge ? my my aren't we speshul.