log☇︎
30400+ entries in 0.165s
mircea_popescu: phf nah, this is a dumb approach. nevermind "what version", first and foremost, "what do we want here"
asciilifeform: phf: this really calls for a ben_vulpes-on-trb-style archaeological dig
mircea_popescu: better punishment for putting a funny snippet in an online chat has never been metted out!
asciilifeform: ( even on my opteron, emacs is still a ~five second load , note )
phf: mircea_popescu: it's not, but as the mail trinque linked points out "the right solution requires a significant overhaul by someone with expertise in emacs internal"
mircea_popescu: because while pompously called "memory dump", it rather is just "make a binary out of lisp".
phf: at some point the implementation was reworked, i was certain that was 25, but trinque just said that he has a 24 version
phf: well, lisp machines have this concept of loading code into memory and then dumping the memory image for a fast restart later
asciilifeform: trinque: recall, there was a headache with emacs on musl
trinque: asciilifeform: omitting everything from genesis but that which brings you to a shell
mircea_popescu: it's a limited window, between (now, when we get the replacement going)
trinque: gotta leave room for a few runs at it
asciilifeform: ergo gotta have a trb-frozen emacs.
mircea_popescu: but much to my surprise, you demonstrated a tower of ductape lisp-flavoured drink that was fast.
phf: climacs also had insane resource usage and equally large dependencies, can't run it without mcclim, and we've had a thread about that.
mircea_popescu: exactly. it's a "risk free" adventure in the sense all one risks is own time.
asciilifeform: ( granted, a defective 'replacement for trb' will give you a reactor meltdown, whereas a climacs-like abortion will simply create grumbling would-be users who revert back to emacsism )
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking ide for chrissakes!
mircea_popescu: trinque aha. something along the lines of http://trilema.com/2013/squares-do-morals-a-porno/#selection-519.0-519.243 i always figured (which, oddly enough, is not in logotron!)
trinque: this is I'm sure why gabriel_laddel got some attention for a wbit
mircea_popescu: well no, climacs was "above a momentary wad of spit, but it did not add up to something that can be used."
asciilifeform: phf: if slime and ada mode can be made to run, it'll be a livable emacs per my lights.
asciilifeform: phf: it's a finite amt of work, that can be stretched out over time.
mircea_popescu: trinque so putatively, if i wish to tell someone some choice bits about his mother's sexual preferences in russian, i must first map A to A ?
phf: asciilifeform: would you actually use a version 19 of emacs, if we managed to bring it up to date? it's almost a rhetorical question, since the result is most likely going to miss all the third party modes that you currently use without extensive amount of elisp patching
trinque: I'm proposing the right design is that in installing any module for the editor, you must as a matter of protocol attach its functionality to your keyboard in order to use
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: climacs was above a momentary wad of spit, a quite substantial amount of work was sunk into it. but it did not add up to something that can be used.
mircea_popescu: not every time a dweeb dreams up a situation where he talks to the girl across is a relationship.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a stillborn thing, afaik.
asciilifeform: worse yet, climacs was afaik never properly finished ( the redraw is glacial, even on a heavy comp, and various pieces to this day broken ) because nobody could be arisen to properly finish it.
trinque: it's an AST editor, attaches a user interface to a parsed AST, keybindings have been considered part of the UI for a given grammar
mircea_popescu: well so then would you agree that " obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild" is actually a desirable situation ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: emacs is a 'modal' system, i.e. every programming language gets a mode, implemented as a set of elisp proggies, that completely changes the behaviour of the editor to (ideally) make it entirely suited to writing that particular form of text
a111: Logged on 2018-05-17 19:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the machine itself, hardware-wise, is incapable of multiuser. it leaks its memory via cache timings on 3 or 4 different layers ; it lacks its state via nic delays, it leaks like a sieve.
mircea_popescu: phf and i'm a troglodyte for thinking this isn't right ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa
phf: so a set of functions that modify the contents of the buffer will usually include among other things script specific changes to keybindings, that are designed to slightly adjust the default global and make assumptions about what that default global is.
mircea_popescu: phf why would a script depend on keybidnings ?
mircea_popescu: which, imo, is enough to PERMANENTLY bury even the notion of "open source" as a "collaborative" endeavour.
mircea_popescu: phf the problem there is, that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing this.
trinque: everything behind a keybinding is also an M-x away
mircea_popescu: yes well. complicated. discussing the simple things in lieu of the things being discussed is not much of a strategy.
phf: v19 most people agree was the pinnacle of old school emacs, making that the default though is entirely impractical since most of the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along the versions is the movement from "pure emacs" towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.
asciilifeform: i jump because it became clear that he stabbed himself on such a nail and ran off screaming
asciilifeform: not admit which ? it's obvious as daylight that the thing is a danger to life and limb if uncrated by naive lamer and used as-is
phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa ☟︎
phf: mircea_popescu: my short log metaphor example would've been the key bindings. there are conventions, they are not always followed, and often they have to be recustomized on a per-mode basis, or else you just memorize the abysmal defaults and stick to them.
asciilifeform: 'universal'-anyffing is a mirage
mircea_popescu: phf can you reduce this short leg metaphore to a strict example ?
jurov: pls don't ask me anything about emacs. i use (neo)vim. tried several times to use emacs and gave up in anger - for example, there isn't even universal keystroke to change between windows/close a window.
trinque: I would stand by the claim that emacs *can* be a time-sink, just as moving your desk around the office each day can, but it doesn't have to be, and isn't inherent in the tool
mircea_popescu: because this is a major, no, strike that, this is THE major fucking decision here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: largely because idiots. however there's a number of structural problems (e.g inability to handle word wrap in anything like a reasonable way) that attract ~infinite kludge-hours from all sorts of folx
trinque: iirc I ran 24 for a while, am on 25 atm, but am not vouching for that version.
trinque: didn't take that long to get to the point where I can throw tiled window arrangements on screen with a few keyboard twitches
mircea_popescu: emacs has been around for 500 years and NOT A SINGLE COGENT DISCUSSION of this matter is to be found anywhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elisp is a gnarly surviver of dark age 1970s lisps, suffers -- unfixably -- from problems long ago solved even in 'scheme' (e.g. 'funarg problem')
phf: that's very true, elisp is not particularly bad as a scripting language. with some effort can be stripped of extra baggage
mircea_popescu: and this is a structural problem ?
phf: my personal objection to it is that it's a time sink, it's easy and satisfying to customize, but it never quite gets to being a complete solution without major work put into it (ala lucene)
mircea_popescu: (me used and abandoned in less than a year decade+ ago, so...)
asciilifeform: phf: but unfortunately nothing like a workable replacement exists today.
asciilifeform: trinque: 'which emacs?' prolly deserves a thread. lessee what phf says, i bet he has an earlier one than mine
hanbot: mircea_popescu highlight is specifically for visibility in a swamp neh
douchebag: However, I still want a garunteed source of income
ben_vulpes: douchebag: i thought handing vulns over to sv corp responsible dicksucksure departments was a sure path to riches
asciilifeform: douchebag: this is not a catastrophe when you're 19 y.o
asciilifeform: douchebag: fully expect that it will take you yrs. you may have to learn a new profession.
asciilifeform: douchebag: i suffered from same thing for many yrs; go and find a slightly less all-consuming gulag
mircea_popescu: and phf is quite ripe for a major signature project like that ; eulora dun seem to interest him, so...
douchebag: The problem is, I have a lot of things going on in my life and I need a source of income. I don't have time to work on projects right now without ending up homeless.
asciilifeform: trinque: ( need a vintage snapshot ? i can supply. or for that matter phf has one. take yer pick )
phf: asciilifeform: you'd be amused by the latest emacs release, "Limited form of concurrency with Lisp threads" "Emacs now uses double buffering to reduce flicker on the X Window System" "Flymake has been completely redesigned" "TRAMP has a new connection method for Google Drive" "A systemd user unit file is provided". it's almost like a self-parody
asciilifeform: it's been a while.
asciilifeform: douchebag: you walked in, seemed to mircea_popescu to be a promising student, then asked to demonstrate some ability to do somrthing useful, and then elaborately wasted various folxs' time
mircea_popescu: this is not related to profession, it's a demographic pressure thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they had an ok time for a spell, with unofficial cartel ( jd from nomenklatura schools, e.g. harvard, were auto-employed ) but as i understand this train has left
asciilifeform: the ameritards have a 'gold rush' culture, destroyed several professions this way
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, this was a major lulz in "western europe" cca 1980s, when all sorts of bums and other vagrants in advanced states of dishevelement showerd up. "we escaped COMMUNIST HELL!!!!" "really ? how come everyone likes it there ?" "no they hate it there!!! everyone hatges it!!!" "Really ?!"
mircea_popescu: it'd be a decent comedy lulzmine, but then again... ustards too fucktarded to even http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-08#1794007 ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( recall, iirc 2015, some kid strapped a , what, 'beretta', to quadcopter, which -- possibly surprisingly -- wasn't banned yet; the next day picked up for 'childporn' )
mircea_popescu: if i everyone wasn't such a fucking retard, we'd have a lawyer joined up by now, and i could sponsor his clerical costs to send amici briefs to each and every single case involving "digital evidence" arguing it's a govt plant.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: in related lulz, re the puzzler of 'why schulte sat around in usa waiting to be picked up', apparently , per the volkischer beobachter, 'Schulte had long been a suspect of investigators exploring the leak, but before Monday, he had been held on separate child pornography charges. Manhattan U.S. Attorney Geoffrey S. Berman said in a statement that investigators looking into Schulte found the pornography in his residence.
asciilifeform: ( here's a stalin puzzler : after ww2, he gave the poles, gift-wrapped, silesia -- good chunk of their current-day footprint. )
mircea_popescu: all it took was retreating over a year, rather than over three weeks.
mircea_popescu: it's a fine example of "we promoted condolezza the nigger, and now we're fucked".
mircea_popescu: but anyway, i am actually willing to go on the record saying that had the russians either a) retreated more intelligently post revolution, which wasn't entirely unsupported or unsimpathized in romania or b) stayed the fuck out of land they, like anyone else, ultiately DIDNT EVEN WANT jesus christ,
asciilifeform: there's actually a few pieces in the american national gallery in washington, from that particular selloff
mircea_popescu: (which it genuinely was, if anyone knows what the fuck chaos revolutionary years were, it;s a wonder somebody didn't steal the hermitage buildings altogether)
mircea_popescu: now, among the minor factors -- romania, at the time a major european actor economically, stored its treasury in moscow before ww1. and well... it was lost.
mircea_popescu: that was one thing ; the other thing was that russia annoyed the shit out of romania by taking some small and inconsequential parcels of land that stephen managed to beat the turks out of repeatedly, a few centuries prior.
mircea_popescu: "next fucking time we have a deal, you cover the fucking front, cocksuckers"
mircea_popescu: the universal oppinion of romanian officer corps, which, in romania, a country very german, were more than a third of the whole shebang, was that russians are literally worse than dogs. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: there's two major factors, and a bunch of minor ones.
asciilifeform: so, idea is , he didn't want ro to end up a persia ?
mircea_popescu: it was a very strict "first come first serve", and the germans came first.
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the mystery-ii, the only way out i see is exactly as yesterday. that thing discussed on trilema a decade ago : http://trilema.com/2009/romanii-si-munca/#comment-6410
asciilifeform: earlier , lenin also got pretty good mileage from 'the white army wants to sell country' ( invited the intervents. which was a lethal mistake, after that red could 'come and fight the intervents, whites sold country' )
mircea_popescu: of course, by then the context had drastically changed, and stalin got a lot of mileage out of "trotsky wants to sell country"
mircea_popescu: he understands what the state is, and for. he understands how the police works, and why. he however thinks going with the plebs in eritrea is a working plan. how the fuck!