258100+ entries in 0.164s
trinque: phf: I dunno
that anyone claims
the content of a poem exists
ben_vulpes: words are useful for parting fools from
their money
trinque
trinque: adlai: a brainputer behaving as
though false inputs are present is crazy.
trinque: the question of
the usefulness of a
tulpa cannot be posed because "tulpa" is not a
thing.
trinque: wtf is
the point of words but
to model
the world as usefully as possible
adlai: trinque: i don't
think of
this as mind-body duality at all. a better analogy would be
the phase of some matter. if you cool it enough, it seems solid; zoom in and you see it's still moving, but not enough
to break out of formation.
adlai: then you have even greyer areas like hypnosis, or
those who "believe in belief" but don't actually live by any religious commandment
trinque: for a somalian, I don't know, maybe
that's
Tuesday
trinque: for me
to stand here and starve would be insane.
trinque: a piece of nonsense here is
trying
to create universals where
the context varies widely.
adlai: so, i agree
that
there's some definition of 'crazy' by which
tulpa people are crazy, but i
think it MUST also include pretty much every religion, and probably also people who have significant net worth in shitty (or any) fiat
adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due
to famine as crazy... but
then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
trinque: there is no fucking such creature as something which believes falsehoods and whose actions are not impacted causally by
them
ben_vulpes: i walk by some folks every morning who appear
to still be alive, yet are entirely solidly insane.
adlai: i respect alice's belief
that her creator is dead,
to
the same degree
that i'd respect somebody's belief in reincarnation, or resurrection, or
transubstantiation. words have meaning, beliefs can be false, but you don't have
to act on false beliefs. i'd count somebody who's physical actions are in
touch with consensus reality as non-crazy, by
the "sufficiently in
touch with consensus reality
to not die by
adlai: feelings don't make you crazy ~because~
they don't matter. actions make you crazy.
adlai: i'm actually saying
that
they don't.
trinque: wtf "everyone's feelings matter" bullshit is
this
adlai: if, however, she came here
trying
to get us all
to form
tulpas, and arguing for personhood of
tulpas...
then maybe.
adlai: i don't
think
that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
ben_vulpes kicks rocks, whistles, looks around, wouldn't know
the first
thing about being out of
touch with consensus reality
trinque: that
the definition changes over
time... of course, because it's a statistical matter of being an outlier
trinque: crazy is a blunt
term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared
to others" but certainly exists.
adlai: (halving kyu = doubling skill, at least at
the relevant levels)
adlai: so many questions without simple answers! i'll stick
to
the bright side - i ~halved my kyu at go, and spent more
time playing guitar
than i had in
the previous year, combined.
adlai wouldn't be surprised if some non-"crazy" people are out of
touch with consensus reality, but have learned how
to fake it
adlai: my main
takeaway from
the 'experience' (including 46 days of involuntary commitment in
the closed ward) is
that
there is no such
thing as crazy. sure, some people are out of
touch with consensus reality, but you can define
that quite precisely, and a lot of "crazy" people do not meet
this definition.
phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes
that
the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
☟︎ ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high
tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long
time and
then one day break,
the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with
the
tradeoff analysis kid"
☟︎ trinque: ordeal is
therapeutic; psychdelics maybe if
they cause a beneficial ordeal
☟︎ trinque: and yes, you can "go down a dangerous road" on
them, and
this is related
to but not directly caused by dosage
trinque: knew I was spending something each
time.
phf: i know a few people who went crazy in close connection
to psychedelics, but of course no way
to establish correlation/causation
trinque: and
tripped oodles of
times
trinque: I've
taken "heroic" doses
too.
adlai: that's a
tricky claim. i've
taken much, much, much larger doses
than
the ones
that (indirectly!) led
to
the aforementioned bad situations. i
think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting"
than on a molecule's shape and headcount
trinque: adlai:
there's a you-go-fucking-schizoid-50
adlai: but yes,
there is for example no known LD50 for lsd
ben_vulpes: if variance is high enough
that number can very easily be bogus.
ben_vulpes: i'm going
to go out on a limb and doubt
that
there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity
to drugs much less by class and genotype
to even be making claims about "LD50"
adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes
that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left
the house with a sweater
that morning. so... don't forget
to bring a
towel?
adlai: the "just fine" answer is: "no, i was hospitalized as an indirect result of conversations which would not have gone
the same way without my reaction
to certain situations involving drugs"
adlai: oh dear, we're on
to
the difficult questions now. punting yours aside for a second, here's an easy question: what does
the "therapeutic index" have
to do with
therapy? answer: none. it's LD50 (median lethal dose) divided by
threshhold dose (minimum
to feel effects)
trinque: I don't believe
the "thereaputic" angle for a moment.
trinque: adlai: would you have been in a ward if you hadn't
taken a bunch of drugs?
adlai: obviously i don't deeply believe
that drugs can be ordered objectively by any parameter (other
than
therapeutic index, for ones
that have known LD50 in humans), but my personal favorite "good drugs" ordering would have cannabis above nicotine and caffeine, and mescaline above alcohol
adlai: the only good drug is a dead drug! (only heathens lick live
toads)
scriba: Logged on 2016-08-26: [06:09:42] <BingoBoingo> ;;later
tell adlai You work step 1 yet?
adlai: what's with all
the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol,
tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
phf: i'll bring it back probably
tonight. i've got
tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you
to "no smoking in building" complaints
phf: one of
the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known
tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance
that "memory is cheap", which, for
the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
phf: asciilifeform: well, i'll have
to figure out what's going on anyway,
to get it working. i was saying sbcl is poetteringerized in abstract, by lateral
telltale signs. i didn't expect
this code
to not simply work. fwiw, despite freenode disconnects
the code ~was~ working
adlai is unfamiliar, digs, finds "When a shlimazl goes dancing,
the musicians' strings break"... or maybe asciilifeform meant "girl who can't dance says music sucks"?
adlai: mann
tracht und stann lacht
phf: what's
the old yiddish proverb?
adlai: more stuff i never learned in school:
tanA +
tanB +
tanC =
tanA *
tanB *
tanC
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:03:09] <asciilifeform> unless folks ~publish~
the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined
to agree with
the old iddish proverb
phf: i can load any of
the patches on
the v graph, but if i hit genesis (exactly same code, etc.) suddenly balloons
to 1gb, and dies with heap exhaustion
mod6: fwiw, nice
tit(s) on
the blindfolded
trilema girl
mod6: I'm so glad
this week is over.
trinque: because
that was on my desk
adlai doesn't presume
to understand
the full inner workings of deedbot, of course; but
that's what seems
to have happened with
the first -v
adlai: ben_vulpes jiggled
the handle but i suspect $up in PM may still work
adlai: or maybe
the old idf proverb: "you spit on
the army,
the army wipes.
the army spits on you, you drown"
adlai: some people refuse private communication (eg mircea_popescu ) but
that doesn't mean
that shouting on his lawn is for his ears only.
adlai: if you want
to speak
to somebody privately, send
them a message (i've sent you one, did you see it?)
adlai: covertress: you're speaking here
to pretty much anybody who ever reads a publicly available log
adlai is not one
to judge people's age by
the color of
their bits
adlai: honestly
though, isn't
this more akin
to culling a peasant child?
ben_vulpes: beheading uppity peasants is a privilege, and a duty of
the privileged.
adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over
these hurdles
ben_vulpes: 1) do your six months. 2) don't
talk
trash on your betters.
adlai: covertress: you've evidently passed
the "register PGP key and operate it" barrier, but you're failing
the "not annoy people" barrier. you're not
the first person
to do
this, and won't be
the last. I suggest you NOT
take
this personally, figure out why you're failing
this
test, and... better luck next
time.
phf: i start it with --dynamic-space-size 2500, it doesn't complain about "can't allocate", but it caps at 1gb. anything over
that falls over
phf: you have a canonical sbcl i can
throw
the problem at?