log☇︎
236100+ entries in 0.171s
mircea_popescu: svg however better - it can be read, as text, and drawn, by hand. png, not so much.
mircea_popescu: so no, png in no sense better than svg in this theoretical approach.
mircea_popescu: i also tested
mircea_popescu: yes, but if nic is never plugged and you never import turds - doesn'\t work
asciilifeform: i tested.
mircea_popescu: yes, per image load - if you don't have them, image won't load.
asciilifeform: i do not want to sign a 'insert usg turd here!' even if theoretically the instruction is not followed on extant renderer
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you nuts ? libpng eats 10mb+ of www turds!
phf: asciilifeform: nothing at this point, none of the xml parses uses DTDs (as predicted by naggum)
asciilifeform: libpng doesn't ask for a turd from the www afaik !
asciilifeform: or begins to include something it oughn't
asciilifeform: massive turd tho.
asciilifeform: other svg's (e.g., the ones on pediwikia) seem to work...
asciilifeform: possibly, but does this solve the problem.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i could readily reduce the svg if you wish, most of it is dreamweaver-style pointless tagging ☟︎
asciilifeform: which i am not even sure differs substantially from the svg situation.
asciilifeform: the original, btw, is 600+kB of xml. but this does 0 without the closed-source turd viewer.
asciilifeform: i am apparently 'blessed' with turning over every stone in every garden and releasing every type of insect possible.
mircea_popescu: nobody's asking you to sign anything yet.
mircea_popescu: hang on dawg, we're just trying to figure shit out here
asciilifeform: and ftr i am not signing a document that i am supposed to be the original author of but CANNOT GET TO HAPPEN ON MY BOX
mircea_popescu: ill report in a sec, machine currently hosed painting the svg over 200k x 200k canvas
mircea_popescu: you first debased then concat'd and it still worked ?!
asciilifeform: btw the first svg is cut off mid-tag
jurov: i de-base64 each one, then concat and i can open it fine
mircea_popescu: jurov did you concat them correctly ?
jurov: then it decodes and i can view the svg
mircea_popescu: convertor cut it in half, which considering we went from binary to readable format is pretty performanc.
mircea_popescu: well the dxf you produced - is
mircea_popescu: there's no way to make an arbitrarily complex schematic fit in an arbitrarily short space.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform look, saying "the v is not allowing x char sequence i wanna use" is one thing. saying "o woes i have this here book of 5mn chars and i want it to be readable in 3 minutes" is another thing.
asciilifeform: and i've been using THIS gimp since 2010.
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what he's on about. seems to me totally broken gimp install.
phf: mircea_popescu: no, but your svg works with mac's default tooling
trinque: alrighty then
asciilifeform: trinque: that is simple and i solved it.
trinque: I am discussing a supposed tmsr sign format that does not have but a header and payload
asciilifeform: i have '---' in there. it will FUCKING STAY '---'.
asciilifeform: trinque: 1 is still problem : it is impossible to deedbot an UNMUTILATED payload
trinque: wtf if I invalidate #1 that says nothing of #21
asciilifeform: ok now say to me how to vify a schematic.
trinque: I read the whole log.
asciilifeform: trinque: that was problem 1 of 2
mircea_popescu: it seriously looks good. even your 10K for R5 is there
asciilifeform: because i have nothing on my box that will show THIS svg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is nonsense and you know it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get a working gimp ? i dunno what to say. mine eats it, i am looking at a 1960x2490 version of it atm, looks fine
trinque just made it to the surface.
trinque: I signed his signed thing is already done
asciilifeform: i tried in www browsers also -- also barf
trinque: what's the problem with a P sig header appearing inside another ?
asciilifeform: Opening '/home/stas/gt/1.svg' failed: Could not open '/home/stas/gt/1.svg' for reading: Error domain 1 code 73 on line 11198 column 38 of file:///home/stas/gt: Couldn't find end of Start Tag path
phf: which is probably ballpark what vectorizing those dxf's produces (probably with significant info loss)
asciilifeform: what the hell didja read'em in
asciilifeform: btw these render nowhere mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: where the fuck did the butterfly missile valves come from phf !
phf: just attach this png instead http://glyf.org/tmp/dxf2fig.png :D
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/PfVG0/?raw=true + http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/1Pq8P/?raw=true then de-base64.
asciilifeform: and note that this turd is now ~5MB !!
asciilifeform: and whether the component values are in there, or evaporated, etc
asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/tmp/goat.dxf << and i will not that i HAVE NFI WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE or if it corresponds to what i saw when i drew the fucker!!!!
mircea_popescu: anyway, "png as v format" is inept beyond belief. let alone "i wish to inspect this matter and can't use my eyes", it's worse : "suppose i want this to be 3x as large" "oh can't do that". well da fuck.
asciilifeform: there'd be 2 of them, i'll make 1 for example
asciilifeform: cheap but then folks would have less incentive to use the turdware and That Would Be Wrong
asciilifeform: just as there are no tmsr chip fabs, etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o try dxf to svg convert!
asciilifeform: it all reduces to the fact that there is no cad but that of the heathens
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:14 phf: binary blobs remain an unsolved problem. the whole idea of binary (or base64) is contrary to some of the more philosophical aspects of vpatch you and mp like to discuss, so i don't know if base64 even solves it.
mircea_popescu: see, there's many problems here, and phf correctly identifies the general case in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581294 ; for eg : what if i want to scale ? ☝︎
asciilifeform: also dxf apparently, but i have not been able to get ~these~ to render anywhere!
asciilifeform: take it up with the german schmucks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why aren't these schematics svg anyway btw ?
mircea_popescu: i was wtf is this extra shit on the side oh OH!
asciilifeform: and haha, there are TWO +++ lines ! ☟︎
mircea_popescu: like that sad airplane in front of tm airport.
mircea_popescu: just as an artefact of the lifes and times.
asciilifeform: and i ain't signing this shit soup
asciilifeform: for what would you want the sad pile ? the magic line is that 1 line
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:05 asciilifeform: i have nfi right now what to do with this nonsense.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581272 << wouldja dpaste the whole pile ? ☝︎
asciilifeform: i will illustrate: yes, cad proggy can export netlist. but said netlist has no provisions for describing a) part valus (e.g., you get C10, and no place for '0.47uF') or the geometries of the physical chips (you get, e.g., IO1-15 but way to say 'that's pin 44 of a pqfp-44 plastic thinleadc carrier)
mircea_popescu: first fuckgoats, then laundrygoats!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey it's not my fault you keep going around starting fires! oh what does this button do, oh what if we made own hardware, oh etc!
asciilifeform: (if you want it to WORK)
asciilifeform: that'd entail a tmsr cad.
mircea_popescu: while xml is shit, it's not directly clear that the correct move here isn't, eg, to make a tmsr-cad format.
phf: so my proposed "put everything into prelude" solution preserves the literacy angle, and uses prelude as a "annotation" section, i.e. space for verbiage, supporting material etc. this will work for free with things like btcbase. can also pack it into a tar file and sign ~that~, but breaks a lot of tools
mircea_popescu: ie, the reason koch-gpg-clearsing worked ok for us for a long time is that while flawed as alf correctly (and repeatedly for a year now) points out, nevertheless its hole falls atop a hole of v, namely that it doesn't do "-----"
mircea_popescu: yes, they are.
asciilifeform: this is entirely true
phf: mircea_popescu: well, the way i got what you grokked from v when it originally came out, is that vpatches are literate, for things that you can reason ~and meaningfully amend~. "unicode on a chalkboard" thread is also relevant
mircea_popescu: the whole point we're trying to get out of is that adhocness
mircea_popescu: so then "it always can be done in particular" is no asnwer, is it ?
asciilifeform: jurov: may as well take the cad proggy's turd then
mircea_popescu: yes but then what the fuck.
jurov: there's also svg using data uri, where you can put all data on one line, thus avoiding +++ on line start problem
asciilifeform: whereas a 'have your patch be 10MB' is idiocy and i will not waste time considering it.
asciilifeform: because it hides the problem.
asciilifeform: jurov: i could trivially convert it to a shell script that 1) vdiff will eat without incident and 2) produces the original png when run. but this is morally problematic.
mircea_popescu: jurov that'd depend on how much data, of course.